Would an urban Target work downtown?

[stasu1213]

In addition to very really issues for retailers regarding crime, poverty, qualified workers, liability, etc. -- there certainly are forces in the city who will seek to stall/derail anything from a store opening to a school charity event. To hear these people speak first-hand and behind closed doors is astonishing.

Downtown Midtown don't have as much as as the rest of the city does. Why not start there.

[stasu1213]

You know that all those places used to exist, right. They were everywhere. Hardware and department stores were abundant. How many Sears and Wards were in the city? I can think of quite a few. They died due to lack of sales and I haven't seen any indication that they would do any better today. In fact, retail is still dying nationwide with new store closings announced almost weekly.

The only places that seem to be expanding are the deep discount places with 'dollar' in their names.

Those places were heavily supported by the the people of the surrounding communities and from those who traveled from other communities. Some of those stores would be still supported if they still exists in the less crime ridden communities today. You failed to mention that Detroit is a basic needs retail desert. You failed to acknowledge that Detroiters still travel outside of the city to stores that sell housewares and etc. Could you name a decent furniture store saving Gardellas that is within city limits?

[hybridy]

You failed to mention that Detroit is a basic needs retail desert. You failed to acknowledge that Detroiters still travel outside of the city to stores that sell housewares and etc. Could you name a decent furniture store saving Gardellas that is within city limits?

Are stores too racist to build in the city to capture the retail dollars spent outside city limits, or are the shrinkage rates and lack of police protection too high of an expense?

CVS seems to have figured this out...

[BankruptcyGuy]

I financed the first "urban" Home Depot in Chicago. Some facts:

1. It wasn't downtown. It was in Lincoln Park, which is densely population with wealthy residents.
2. If I recall correctly, it's closer to 80,000 sf vs. the 140,000 sf in a full-size Home Depot.
3. The biggest difference in product selection is that it removes the lumber/large materials section.
4. Generally, they were two stories, so the footprint wasn't huge.
5. The downtown/midtown market was pretty similar to the LP market [[as LP was serviced by two full-size Home Depots as well).

It certainly could work--the demographics now support something like this. I fear that this would exacerbate the argument that neighborhoods are being neglected.

[Bham1982]

I financed the first "urban" Home Depot in Chicago. Some facts:
It certainly could work--the demographics now support something like this. I fear that this would exacerbate the argument that neighborhoods are being neglected.

Again, there is no demographic argument here. There are very few households in downtown/midtown and it certainly isn't comparable to Lincoln Park.

Greater downtown Chicago probably has around 10x the population of Detroit Midtown/Downtown, and much higher household income.

If HD wants to open downtown, there's nothing stopping them. In fact they would be lavished with subsidies, with little or no controversy.

[Bham1982]

Then I assume you actually don't live in Birmingham. Anywhere in Birmingham is less than 5 miles to the Coolidge and 15 Mile stripland. You're also lucky enough to have a viable downtown full of restaurants, retail, and cafes.

And you're assuming these people have cars. Five miles by car can mean 30 minutes or more via public transit.

I don't know what you're arguing, as no one said there are no big box stores within five miles of Bham.

The only big box stores at 15/Coolidge are Target and Home Depot. Further south there's a Meijer. All these stores are already in or directly adjacent to Detroit.

And, yeah, obviously I'm assuming these people have cars. Why wouldn't I? Even in Chicago almost all affluent households have cars. NYC is the only U.S. metro where you have a substantial number of car-free higher income folks, and where big box works without parking.

You can't have it both ways, claiming all these affluent, worldly people are downtown [[hiding from the Census, apparently) and then claiming they lack internet access and are forced to take D-DOT 10 miles to buy a pair of socks.

[Bham1982]

Your first statement is utterly false, but what else is new?

If you truly believe that U.S. Census data is "false", don't know what to say. Lying about peer-reviewed govt. sanctioned data because it doesn't fit a fantasy agenda is pretty weak.

As the meme goes, "One doesn't just simply open up a store in Detroit." .

You're right. First comes the waiving of all zoning and labor requirements. Next come the subsidies. Third comes the gushing media, fawning over a retailer that would elicit yawns in a Howell or Grand Blanc strip mall. If anything goes wrong, fourth come the excuses, from blaming Brooks Patterson to turning on the business. Rinse, repeat.

[dtowncitylover]

If you truly believe that U.S. Census data is "false", don't know what to say. Lying about peer-reviewed govt. sanctioned data because it doesn't fit a fantasy agenda is pretty weak.


You're right. First comes the waiving of all zoning and labor requirements. Next come the subsidies. Third comes the gushing media, fawning over a retailer that would elicit yawns in a Howell or Grand Blanc strip mall. If anything goes wrong, fourth come the excuses, from blaming Brooks Patterson to turning on the business. Rinse, repeat.

Your nit picking of the sole downtown area is you trying to paint the picture the way you see it. But what else is new? One census tract has nothing to do with the entire 7.2 square miles that make up Detroit's urban core and has a demography enough to sustain an small format Target, plus visitors, plus the 7.2 square mile workers who may use it on their lunch or way out.

The infamous red tape from city government plus the fact we're just beginning to learn how to walk again as a city is why national retailers stay away from us. Your right, Gilbert has given many subsidies to some of the new retailers downtown. And?

[iheartthed]

I financed the first "urban" Home Depot in Chicago. Some facts:

1. It wasn't downtown. It was in Lincoln Park, which is densely population with wealthy residents.
2. If I recall correctly, it's closer to 80,000 sf vs. the 140,000 sf in a full-size Home Depot.
3. The biggest difference in product selection is that it removes the lumber/large materials section.
4. Generally, they were two stories, so the footprint wasn't huge.
5. The downtown/midtown market was pretty similar to the LP market [[as LP was serviced by two full-size Home Depots as well).

It certainly could work--the demographics now support something like this. I fear that this would exacerbate the argument that neighborhoods are being neglected.

The Home Depot in Detroit has been around for at least a decade. There was a news story a few years ago about how it stocked non-traditional items to fill the retail void in that part of the city, and at the time I believe it was the best performing Home Depot in Michigan.

[iheartthed]

And, yeah, obviously I'm assuming these people have cars. Why wouldn't I? Even in Chicago almost all affluent households have cars. NYC is the only U.S. metro where you have a substantial number of car-free higher income folks, and where big box works without parking.

Urban format Target stores are not big box.

[dtowncitylover]

I don't know what you're arguing, as no one said there are no big box stores within five miles of Bham.

The only big box stores at 15/Coolidge are Target and Home Depot. Further south there's a Meijer. All these stores are already in or directly adjacent to Detroit.

And, yeah, obviously I'm assuming these people have cars. Why wouldn't I? Even in Chicago almost all affluent households have cars. NYC is the only U.S. metro where you have a substantial number of car-free higher income folks, and where big box works without parking.

You can't have it both ways, claiming all these affluent, worldly people are downtown [[hiding from the Census, apparently) and then claiming they lack internet access and are forced to take D-DOT 10 miles to buy a pair of socks.

Those in the 7.2 square miles are both rich and poor, black and white. And none of them are directly served by the number of stores you and I are serviced by. A trip to the suburbs is not being served.

And I never said they lacked internet access, I said they might lack the capital to pay for Prime, whose price will probably always periodically go up.

It's a rather pompous attitude to think that because stores are already found in other suburbs, Detroiters should just suck it up and trek to the suburbs.

A Target will open, urban or otherwise, will open in the city by 2030 at the latest. The residential momentum is self-evident.

[Richard]

Amazon pulls in 9 billion a year just on prime memberships fees.

Most urban Targets or the one by me which is kinda like the smaller footprint wall-marts have limited space so the choices are not there,one size or even smaller sizes at a higher price.

It seems to be okay if one is single or just wanting to pick up a few items but not very cost effective if one has a family,so people would end up going outside for the bulk anyways.

So what are people looking for? Grocery options or sundries or clothing?

I read awhile back about an African American owned supermarket in the city that was opening up another location,do people not shop there or is that not an option?

What exactly are you looking for?

[BankruptcyGuy]

Again, there is no demographic argument here. There are very few households in downtown/midtown and it certainly isn't comparable to Lincoln Park.

Greater downtown Chicago probably has around 10x the population of Detroit Midtown/Downtown, and much higher household income.

If HD wants to open downtown, there's nothing stopping them. In fact they would be lavished with subsidies, with little or no controversy.

I take it from your confusion about Chicago that you've never lived there.

Lincoln Park is not "downtown" Chicago. They are very different things.

Yes, Lincoln Park has more people than the 7.2. The urban Home Depot was also the third that serviced the area [[one on Clybourn and one on Elston).

The average AGI in 60614 [[Lincoln Park) was $194,000 in 2012.
The average AGI in 48226 was $130,000 in 2012.

Maybe you are confusing it with the Gold Coast or on Lakeshore. At some dollar figure, people dont need Home Depot--they have staff for that.

[erikd]

Mackinac Island — Downtown Detroit’s rebirth till this point has focused on rehabbing old buildings to add office, residential and restaurant space. Now, the central city is poised for a retail boom that is expected to draw some of the industry’s biggest names.
Think Apple, H&M, Zara, Sephora, Peloton and even Target.
Those are among the stores being courted by Bedrock, the development arm of Dan Gilbert’s Quicken Loans empire, according to two of the company’s top executives.
Over dinner at the Detroit Regional Chamber’s Mackinac Policy Conference, CEO Jim Ketai and President Dan Mullen laid out a plan to fill downtown’s empty storefronts with a broad mix of retailers, from mom-and-pop shops to Fifth Avenue-quality boutiques — and the wave should begin building over the next few months.
“There are a lot of deals on the edge of getting done,” says Ketai. “Ideally, there are going to be a lot of announcements coming very soon.”As soon as by the end of the year. Mullen just returned from the International Conference of Shopping Centers, where he says interest in Detroit was red hot.
“Five years ago you couldn’t get a meeting,” he says. “This year everyone wanted to talk about Detroit.”
Ketai says the slow addition of retail to the downtown fabric has been largely intentional. Bedrock was waiting for a critical mass of residents and office workers to assure a greater chance of success for retailers. It also wanted the initial phase of stores — Moosejaw, Lululemon, Nike, Warby Parker, etc. — to prove there is a viable market downtown.“Those first stores are all doing great; breaking all expectations,” Ketai says.
In the future, Bedrock wants all of its building projects to open with retail, rather than waiting to add it later. That starts with the new Shinola hotel on Woodward, which is slated for a November debut. The initial focus is on filling in the Woodward storefronts, as well as those in Capitol Park. The Book Building on Washington Boulevard will have a robust shopping presence, Mullin says.
The company wants to craft a mix of stores that can effectively compete with Amazon and other Internet giants.
“People want an urban shopping experience,” Ketai says. “The focus has to be on the experience.”

The emphasis is particularly on stores that appeal to women. That goes beyond fashion to include home furnishings, sundries, salons and services such as dry cleaners.
They say they are committed to making room for small local players to preserve a unique Detroit feel. They expect some of the pop-up stores featured in the Winter Market to move into permanent storefronts downtown.
The gem would be landing an urban Target store. The retailer is looking at Detroit, and is currently interested in the Midtown area.
Mullen says Bedrock has an advantage in mapping the retail environment that landlords in other cities don’t have because it controls so much of the retail space.
Bedrock now has about 700,000 square feet available for retailers downtown, with only about 30 percent leased. That will grow to well over 1 million square feet when the projects planned for the old Hudson’s site and Monroe block are complete.
Over the next five to 10 years or so, the executives expect to put hundreds of new stores in that space.
“It will change the culture downtown,” Mullen says. “It will make it a retail destination point.”
Other developers share Bedrock’s prediction.
“The next 12 to 24 months, retailing will boom,” says Todd Sachse of Sachse Construction, who redeveloped the Albert Building in Capitol Park. “In terms of retailing, we need more of everything downtown. More stores, more professional services. We’re under-served here.”
Mayor Mike Duggan says more stores would help draw more businesses and residents.
“If you created the kind of storefronts that were experiences, you could see it potentially add to the momentum on housing, the momentum on business,” Duggan says. “I remember asking [[mall pioneer) Al Taubman 20 years ago why can’t you build in Detroit, and he said people shop where they live. It seemed like a simple explanation from a guy who should know. Now, you’re seeing people living in downtown, Midtown.”
Those residents need places where they can purchase their everyday needs. But the bigger goal, Mullen says, is to create a “timeless mix of stores” that will coax shoppers off the Internet and onto the streets of downtown Detroit. He promises that’s coming soon.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/op...oom/659583002/

[Former_Detroiter]

Downtown Midtown don't have as much as as the rest of the city does. Why not start there.

I'm not sure what you're saying. Could you clarify?

[dtowncitylover]

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/op...oom/659583002/

Thanks for that!

[stasu1213]

I'm not sure what you're saying. Could you clarify?

Crime including smash and grabs

[Bham1982]

I take it from your confusion about Chicago that you've never lived there.

Lincoln Park is not "downtown" Chicago. They are very different things.

Stop with the silly games. Lincoln Park is core Chicago, same thing as downtown/midtown is core Detroit. Not sure what living in a city has to do with understanding this non-point. There is no technical definition of "downtown Chicago" anyways, but it's always understood as the prime areas at the city center, not only the few blocks within the L loop.

Yes, Lincoln Park has more people than the 7.2. The urban Home Depot was also the third that serviced the area [[one on Clybourn and one on Elston).

Why are you going on about LP? It's core Chicago at issue, not one specific neighborhood area. There are hundreds of thousands of people living in the city core, in Detroit there probably isn't 10% the population. So what is the point about bringing up Chicago? It's like comparing core Detroit to core Saginaw.

Maybe you are confusing it with the Gold Coast or on Lakeshore. At some dollar figure, people dont need Home Depot--they have staff for that.

I have no idea what you're talking about here. It's all the same market, those areas aren't wealthier than LP, and rich people use HD too [[there's a HD on the UES of Manhattan, which makes core Chicago look like Flint).

[Former_Detroiter]

Crime including smash and grabs

Really? The post you commented on didn't say anything about that. Which is why I was confused.

[BankruptcyGuy]

Stop with the silly games. Lincoln Park is core Chicago, same thing as downtown/midtown is core Detroit. Not sure what living in a city has to do with understanding this non-point. There is no technical definition of "downtown Chicago" anyways, but it's always understood as the prime areas at the city center, not only the few blocks within the L loop.

"Core" isn't a term either. Let me assure that the people that live in the Gold Coast don't say they live in Lincoln Park, the people that live in Lincoln Park don't say they live in Lakeview or Bucktown. And yes, people who live in the Loop distinguish themselves from those who live in Near North.

Why are you going on about LP? It's core Chicago at issue, not one specific neighborhood area. There are hundreds of thousands of people living in the city core, in Detroit there probably isn't 10% the population. So what is the point about bringing up Chicago? It's like comparing core Detroit to core Saginaw.

Because the urban Home Depot was built in Lincoln Park, not the Gold Coast or Lakeview or downtown. People aren't driving, bussing, El-ing, or Uber-ing from those locations to 2665 Halsted. The question of this thread was whether Detroit would support an urban Home Depot.

I have no idea what you're talking about here. It's all the same market, those areas aren't wealthier than LP, and rich people use HD too [[there's a HD on the UES of Manhattan, which makes core Chicago look like Flint).

Home Depot's market analysis calculates the number of home owners, not renters or those in condos/co-ops. The latter are severely restricted in what kind of home improvement they can do. In many places, if it attaches to a exterior wall, the association does the work. That is probably the biggest demographic challenge holding the 7.2 back when it comes to adding a hardware retailer--too many renters.

And I'm guessing that most Upper East Siders wouldn't call 58th and Lex the Upper East Side. That's slumming it down in Midtown [[to them).

[bust]

Who cares really, but as a point of clarification, the Upper East Side is a mixed bag, with recent transplants outnumbering Manhattan's old guard. You can find the cheapest rentals there in Manhattan south of East Harlem. It's long been a destination for recent grads fresh out college [[even if they've spread all over the city since crime has plummeted). In other words, Bham's reference wasn't quite on the mark in the first place. The UES is just about as core Chicago as New York gets.