Would an urban Target work downtown?

[EastsideAl]

I would be very surprised if Detroit could support a single "urban format" store, and doubt any are coming unless Gilbert wants to basically pay them to come. Detroit has never been more depopulated, and there isn't any need for "urban format" stores.

I don't know, it would be nice if the 700,000 or so of us poor souls left in the City of Detroit had a few places to shop that didn't entail a 10 mile drive to somewhere else [[where we Detroiters make up a significant portion of the patronage). But, then again, what hope do we have when the 560,000 people of Albuquerque can only support 5 full size Target stores within their city limits?

[iheartthed]

Greatland hasn't been a thing for... maybe over a decade? It's been so long I can't remember. Super Targets [[I know you didn't mention it, but relevant to the discussion I suppose) have been done for a number of years. City Target is largely a failed experiment. Now City Targets are just called Target... and for the most part under perform. Some were closed.

The City Target brand may be gone, but the concept is still alive. Target opened one in Manhattan's TriBeCa neighborhood about a year and a half ago.

[Bham1982]

I don't know, it would be nice if the 700,000 or so of us poor souls left in the City of Detroit had a few places to shop that didn't entail a 10 mile drive to somewhere else [[where we Detroiters make up a significant portion of the patronage).

Detroit is ringed by multitudes of big-box stores on all sides. I doubt there's any Detroiter who has to drive anywhere near 10 miles for big box.

We were talking a mini-Target downtown, which makes no sense. I could see a full-size Target possibly working on the city's fringe, though will note that a city-bordering Targets have closed in Southfield and Harper Woods [[though they exist in Livonia and Dearborn).

[iheartthed]

Detroit is ringed by multitudes of big-box stores on all sides. I doubt there's any Detroiter who has to drive anywhere near 10 miles for big box.

We were talking a mini-Target downtown, which makes no sense. I could see a full-size Target possibly working on the city's fringe, though will note that a city-bordering Targets have closed in Southfield and Harper Woods [[though they exist in Livonia and Dearborn).

Why would it make more sense to put a large Target where they already exist, instead of a small format Target where none exists?

[Jason]

There's what, like 70,000+ people living in the greater downtown area? I think it's pretty safe to say that the area is still underretailed.

[Bham1982]

Why would it make more sense to put a large Target where they already exist, instead of a small format Target where none exists?

Because you need a market. There is no such market, right now, downtown/midtown.

There are very few places in the country, outside of large universities, and a few first-tier city centers, where you have a large population of non-poor living urban lifestyles. The 10k or so people living downtown/midtown are already served by big box and Amazon, obviously.

I could see it happening, though. If Michigan can give Gilbert $700 million for an office building, I could see them giving them $70 million or something for a few retailers. They already did that for the mini-WF.

[dtowncitylover]

aThe 10k or so people living downtown/midtown are already served by big box and Amazon, obviously

Having to drive more than 5 miles is not being served. And considering using Amazon is only worth it if you have Prime for free shipping, and I wonder if those underserved Detroiters, those who might be below the poverty line, have Prime.

[erikd]

Detroit is ringed by multitudes of big-box stores on all sides. I doubt there's any Detroiter who has to drive anywhere near 10 miles for big box.

We were talking a mini-Target downtown, which makes no sense. I could see a full-size Target possibly working on the city's fringe, though will note that a city-bordering Targets have closed in Southfield and Harper Woods [[though they exist in Livonia and Dearborn).

The closest Target store [[Dearborn) is about 10.5 miles from downtown Detroit.

[313WX]

I absolutely think Detroit could support a Target in any format.

What it needs is a very experienced developer who has the readily available space for them to lease in an ideal location, because the reality is most retailers aren't building their own new construction space for their stores these days.

Also, what Target wants for its large footprint stores is to be along a corridor with a ton of vehicle traffic [[so that would mean only along Gratiot, Jefferson, Woodward, Grand River Michigan or 8 Mile), and for its smaller footprint/urban stores, to be along a corridor with a ton of foot traffic. They would also want to be in an area where the nearby median & per-capita income levels is reasonably high.

So I think an urban Target would most likely go on Woodward between Warren and Mack. However, I can't think of an area with the available retail space or land that has the combined vehicle traffic requirements and median / per-capita income levels a larger footprint Target would require [[Meijer at 8 Mile and Woodward as well as on the old Uniroyal Site and the Old Redford High site has already taken the best possible pieces of land).

[iheartthed]

Because you need a market. There is no such market, right now, downtown/midtown.

There are very few places in the country, outside of large universities, and a few first-tier city centers, where you have a large population of non-poor living urban lifestyles. The 10k or so people living downtown/midtown are already served by big box and Amazon, obviously.

I could see it happening, though. If Michigan can give Gilbert $700 million for an office building, I could see them giving them $70 million or something for a few retailers. They already did that for the mini-WF.

Downtown and midtown Detroit is probably the densest concentration of people in the entire state of Michigan. That is not to mention that the population of this area x-tuples during business hours. And, to top it off, it is one of the fastest growing areas in the Detroit region.

I don't think the problem with retail in Detroit has ever been that Detroit residents couldn't "support" it. What happened was that there was a retail industry shift to the suburban format, and that format was incompatible with building in Detroit. Now that there is a shift back into urban formats it only makes sense that Detroit is where retailers would look to build when considering southeast Michigan.

[stasu1213]

I would put a City Target in one of the buildings that are being built along Woodward in Midtown. It could take of the first floor that is for retail. The spot could be used for something else in case Target will lose money and decide to close some of it's stores including the Detroit one. I wouldn't want to see a brick and mortar building built for Target unless it could be a building that could house any other retail in case Target decide to close up shop. Manhattan is quicker to welcome in national chain brand retail without giving them a hard time with red tape. Detroit has and still is trying to encourage and give local retail the green light to open without much trouble and discourage national chained retailer from opening

[stasu1213]

Downtown and midtown Detroit is probably the densest concentration of people in the entire state of Michigan. That is not to mention that the population of this area x-tuples during business hours. And, to top it off, it is one of the fastest growing areas in the Detroit region.

I don't think the problem with retail in Detroit has ever been that Detroit residents couldn't "support" it. What happened was that there was a retail industry shift to the suburban format, and that format was incompatible with building in Detroit. Now that there is a shift back into urban formats it only makes sense that Detroit is where retailers would look to build when considering southeast Michigan.

Agreed. One thing that I like about what Dan Gilbert has done was renovate these buildings along Woodward so that retail could move into and buildout an completely opened and empty space. Sue Mosey is getting more and more retail into the Midtown area that catered to the middle end shopper such as myself. Carhartt is an example of an affordable middle end store that many could shop without paying an extremely high price for a pair of blue jeans. The only area that is being held back or deprived of good retail is the Lafayette Park Jefferson area. Staples was suppose to had gotten that started but there was no support for Staples. I think that Magic Johnson should be tapped on the shoulder to see if he could help put some type of retail on Jefferson.

[Former_Detroiter]

I don't know, it would be nice if the 700,000 or so of us poor souls left in the City of Detroit had a few places to shop that didn't entail a 10 mile drive to somewhere else [[where we Detroiters make up a significant portion of the patronage). But, then again, what hope do we have when the 560,000 people of Albuquerque can only support 5 full size Target stores within their city limits?

Since you mentioned Albuquerque there are 3 Sam's Clubs and 3 Costco's all within the city limits.

[detroitbob]

By all Midtown peeps reports, the Target [[urban concept) is still anticipated for Mack and Woodward in the new development at the SE corner. With the West Elm Hotel and the renovation/restoration of the Bonstelle after it is decommissioned by WSU this strip of Woodward from Edmund to Alexandrine is going to have more activity than in years. As I drove south on Woodward last night foot traffic and people waiting for and exiting the QLine made for quite a bit of foot traffic. The opening of Empire in the Scott at Brush Park plus the activity at Mabel Grey and the Bakersfield has already contributed to increased foot traffic. It would be nice to see something happen with the storefront at Orchestra Hall.

[Towne Cluber]

It's amazing the East Lansing has it's Target while it's just a pipe dream in Detroit. I still say that there are forces in the city who stall anything such as a Target from opening in Detroit. Meijer is still in the so-called predevelopment stage which may go on for another couple of years. Jefferson avenue itself could manage a few big block stores such as Target, Walmart, and Meijer. Jefferson Village strip mall could hold two of them. Kroger could open a store in midtown or on Jefferson and will get good support. Detroit need a store that's within the community that carry basic needs such as towels, linens, groceries, ironing boards etc. The question is why are these stores are being shut out of Detroit with the exception of two Meijers

In addition to very really issues for retailers regarding crime, poverty, qualified workers, liability, etc. -- there certainly are forces in the city who will seek to stall/derail anything from a store opening to a school charity event. To hear these people speak first-hand and behind closed doors is astonishing.

[Meddle]

Detroit need a store that's within the community that carry basic needs such as towels, linens, groceries, ironing boards etc.

You know that all those places used to exist, right. They were everywhere. Hardware and department stores were abundant. How many Sears and Wards were in the city? I can think of quite a few. They died due to lack of sales and I haven't seen any indication that they would do any better today. In fact, retail is still dying nationwide with new store closings announced almost weekly.

The only places that seem to be expanding are the deep discount places with 'dollar' in their names.

[Bham1982]

Having to drive more than 5 miles is not being served.

That's silly, obviously. Five miles, in Michigan, is usually no more than 10 minutes.

I have almost no big box stores within five miles of my house, but I would hardly say I'm deprived of retail options.

[Bham1982]

The closest Target store [[Dearborn) is about 10.5 miles from downtown Detroit.

Almost no one lives downtown. There are plenty of big box stores in proximity to Detroit's population and wealth. Most middle class Detroit households are in NW Detroit, proximate to big box [[including some in city limits, like 2 Meijers and a Home Depot).

Retailers know census-tract level demographics. This is pretty much the core foundation of site selection. If they believe there's some unmet consumer need for big box in/around downtown, they won't hesitate to build [[and the city/state won't hesitate to pay them handsomely).

[dtowncitylover]

That's silly, obviously. Five miles, in Michigan, is usually no more than 10 minutes.

I have almost no big box stores within five miles of my house, but I would hardly say I'm deprived of retail options.

Then I assume you actually don't live in Birmingham. Anywhere in Birmingham is less than 5 miles to the Coolidge and 15 Mile stripland. You're also lucky enough to have a viable downtown full of restaurants, retail, and cafes.

And you're assuming these people have cars. Five miles by car can mean 30 minutes or more via public transit.

[dtowncitylover]

Almost no one lives downtown. There are plenty of big box stores in proximity to Detroit's population and wealth. Most middle class Detroit households are in NW Detroit, proximate to big box [[including some in city limits, like 2 Meijers and a Home Depot).

Retailers know census-tract level demographics. This is pretty much the core foundation of site selection. If they believe there's some unmet consumer need for big box in/around downtown, they won't hesitate to build [[and the city/state won't hesitate to pay them handsomely).

Your first statement is utterly false, but what else is new?

Retailers know demographics, but they also know city hall. The cost of opening up in Detroit, from what I've heard and seen, can be a daunting challenge. As the meme goes, "One doesn't just simply open up a store in Detroit." Gilbert has definitely played a strong hand in getting those new stores along Woodward. I also can imagine Target execs looking and waiting for what the city will be like in 2020 and if the momentum continues, then yes they could open. Along with other national brands.

Brick and mortar is not dead. It's being shaped by us consumers, and not all of us use Prime or care to buy online. Some of us browse online and go check out things in store. Or we buy online and return in store, thus creating need for both.

[oladub]

Parking is required. Otherwise, customers who live blocks or a mile away downtown aren't going to be carrying too much home. The parking lot has to be secure which is is probably doable. As previously mentioned, Seattle's downtown Target offers free parking with $20 of purchases.

[dtowncitylover]

Parking is required. Otherwise, customers who live blocks or a mile away downtown aren't going to be carrying too much home. The parking lot has to be secure which is is probably doable. As previously mentioned, Seattle's downtown Target offers free parking with $20 of purchases.

Parking needs to be minimized. The point of living in a city is to use one's car as little as possible, if have one at all. Even if I lived a mile away, public transit plus a rolling cart with my bags in it is all I need. I believe an urban Target wouldn't have the bulkier items a suburban Target often has thus lugging around a 15/20+ lb box or whatever wouldn't happen. If Target did open up at Woodward and Mack and I lived at the Boulevard and Woodward, I won't be driving to Target.

[oladub]

The point of living in a city is whatever the individual wants it to be. Corporations, on the other hand, are often in it to make a profit. Tell an old person that they can move five bags of groceries through slush with a rolling cart. Target usually provides parking. However, I noticed that Target's downtown Minneapolis store seems to rely on private parking costing $6 on Sundays and other days after 4. My guess is that anyone living halfway between two Targets would consider if one cost $6 more to go to other things being equal. I live near an urban Target that has free parking on the ground level underneath the store. There is an escalator dedicated to moving shopping carts from the shopping level to the ground parking level. Although a good many bus lines go past this Target 50' away, I can't remember seeing anyone getting on a bus with Target bags although there probably are some. Incidentally, I sometimes do walk to that Target .4 miles away with a converted child carrier cart for exercise but not in winter, at night, when I am in a hurry, or in bad weather.

[bust]

That's silly, obviously. Five miles, in Michigan, is usually no more than 10 minutes.

I have almost no big box stores within five miles of my house, but I would hardly say I'm deprived of retail options.

You're clearly not deprived.
But 1 in 4 households in Detroit doesn't have a car.
You may not be bothered having to drive or take a bus to buy your basic necessities, but plenty other people are.
You may not be bothered by the strip malls and parking lots that result from that lifestyle, but plenty other people are.
It's only car drivers, not bus riders, who are served by that.
And plenty of your fellow car drivers don't want it either.

Car Ownership in U.S. Cities Data and Map
http://www.governing.com/gov-data/ca...-city-map.html

[Meddle]

Parking needs to be minimized. The point of living in a city is to use one's car as little as possible, if have one at all. Even if I lived a mile away, public transit plus a rolling cart ...

To do that, you'd have to pay me above minimum wage and provide all the groceries and merchandise free. Not willing to do that? Gimme me my car and free parking.