Business As Usual [[Shooting and Mayhem) in Greektown.

[Honky Tonk]

And smoking doesn't cause cancer.
People who smoke cause cancer.

Tobacco industry casts doubt on scientific research. Part 1.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kgQQKE3F9M

Tobacco companies have both something to sell you and are losing business. [[except for the vapers) What is Clark County sheriff Joseph Lombardo trying to sell you and why is he losing business?

[iheartthed]

Tobacco companies have both something to sell you and are losing business. [[except for the vapers) What is Clark County sheriff Joseph Lombardo trying to sell you and why is he losing business?

An ideology.

[Pat001]

Guns carried by law-abiding concealed carry permit holders I’m sure.

[iheartthed]

Guns carried by law-abiding concealed carry permit holders I’m sure.

Obviously they aren't law-abiding. They could be licensed for concealed carry. Even if they aren't licensed, it is highly likely that the gun was originally purchased through a legal means, and somewhere along the line, through loophole or negligence, the gun ended up in the wrong hands.

Tl;dr, it is too easy to get guns.

[Jakewayj]

Exactly. Las Vegas was singular incident. 3 shootings in 4 days on the same strip isn't an incident. It’s an f-ing warzone.

Could you imagine if the same bank was robbed 3x in four days?! Or the same pizza place held up at gunpoint 3x in four days??

This is completely insane and needs to be shut down now.

As someone who just moved back to Michigan after living in Las Vegas for 11 years there has been plenty of violent acts besides the October 1 shooting that happened. There have been shootings, armed robberies and some girl mowing down people on the sidewalk that all happened on the strip. This doesn't include all the incidents the hotels don't let the public find out, Las Vegas isn't the place I would use as an example of an entertainment district with little violence.

[SyGolden48236]

it is highly likely that the gun was originally purchased through a legal means, and somewhere along the line, through loophole or negligence, the gun ended up in the wrong hands.

Most likely neither a loophole or negligence. The gun was most likely stolen by a scumbag criminal from a law abiding citizen who purchased the gun legally.

There, I fixed that for you.

[bust]

The result is exactly the same.

[erikd]

I don’t even think it’s problem clubs [[plural). Historically, the main culprit has been Niki’s Lounge. Some of the patrons coming out of there have been bringing behavior problems to Greektown for years.

http://nikisloungedetroit.com/

But there are a few problems:

1) I don’t think you can hold an establishment responsible for the behavior of your patrons once they’ve left.

2) Just in general, Greektown on hot summer nights sometimes feels like a tinder box where one wrong move and a fight will break out. One wrong fight and then shots are fired. Especially 10 pm and later.

It kind of reminds me of what Rivertown felt like before DPD started enforcing noise violations and stepping up their presence there.

Niki's Lounge is definitely a big source of the problem.

[mwilbert]

Most likely neither a loophole or negligence. The gun was most likely stolen by a scumbag criminal from a law abiding citizen who purchased the gun legally.

There, I fixed that for you.

First of all, it seems you are probably mistaken. As far as I can tell, most criminals get guns through straw purchases and/or corrupt gun dealers. I find widely varying percentages of guns used in crimes attributed to stolen guns, between 10-30-odd%, but not a nearly a majority.

Second, it seems to me like usually if a gun gets stolen, it is at least partially negligence. You shouldn't be leaving guns around where people can steal them. Also, gun owners seem to lose a lot of guns, or to not notice when they are stolen, which is also negligent, so they don't report them stolen, which is one reason it is hard to tell exactly how many are stolen vs. lost.

[Dumpling]

"He started with the ATF in Detroit, infiltrating street gangs."

http://www.businessinsider.com/heres...e-a-gun-2016-8

NIBIN is what I'm after...but...this is IBIS Brass Trax:

http://www.ultra-forensictechnology.com/ibis

"The data in NIBIN are bottlenecked - there are not enough
ATF agents..."

https://nij.gov/journals/274/Pages/w...ove-nibin.aspx

"Microstamping" would be another helpful improvement:

http://lawcenter.giffords.org/gun-la...ng-ballistics/

To sum these notes up: One could approve of every American
adult being issued a gun by the Federal government - there would
have to be a court hearing to disallow the ownership of a gun by a
particular individual - and allow everyone to open carry them in
public - it would make some of us feel much safer and PROBABLY
would have no impact on the crime rate. HOWEVER along with that
we SHOULD implement microstamping and rapid tracing techniques
in order to identify and locate those who misuse their firearms.

The gun lobby's footdragging on technological improvements for
solving gun crimes bothers me, not so much the idea of everyone
having a gun.

[One Shot]

Most on here along with the general public know what the problem is. Hoods brought up in broken homes with NO morals or values. Unless these people are neutered for a full generation the mentality will continue to live and be passed on. Add Pot to the drinking and heat mix.
Totally pisses me off. I really enjoy Detroit and what’s happening down there but when I hear this shit it makes even this hardcore city lover think twice.

[DetBill]

Our children were forbidden to go into Detroit when they were teenagers [[they are now in their early twenties) as were most of their friends.

Our 23 year old son understands that there is almost nothing down there that he can't get elsewhere without all of the hassle and danger. Between the rampant disregard for stop signs, red lights and other assorted traffic ordinances, the open hostility of many of the inhabitants of that city and the general lawlessness it is quite unsafe. Even Danny's Disneyland Downtown isn't quite so safe in spite of all of his cameras and private police. This past weekend's atrocities in Greektown bare testimony to this fact. And the areas between Gilbert's bubble and the city borders are even worse.

The kids will go to the occasional ball game but they know to park in the stadium parking structures and jump right on the freeway when the game is over. They do not linger down there after the event.

Please, the whole downtown is not all that horrible, I live two blocks away from Greektown, for 21 years, and walk it daily, its the nicest its ever been with tons of people all over, I also go out at least 3 to 4 times a week in the evening, most of downtown is actually quite fine, Greektown is fine during the day, but I’m just not crazy about the quality of the weekend evening crowds so I stay away from that area, there is tons of other areas to go downtown , whether it be Campus Martius, downtown on Woodward, the belt, broadway area, Capitol Park, all the way up Woodward, near Cobo Center, Midtown, your children hardly have to run away after they go to a ball game , that’s just ludicrous . There are thousands of people of all types all over downtown existing safely, Greektown definetly needs some attention though in the evening anymore. I liked it better when they closed Monroe weekend evenings into a mall two years ago.
.

[Bham1982]

Most likely neither a loophole or negligence. The gun was most likely stolen by a scumbag criminal from a law abiding citizen who purchased the gun legally.

There, I fixed that for you.

Extremely unlikely scenario. Sounds like parroted NRA propaganda.

In reality, the vast majority of guns used in crimes were legally purchased by straw buyers, which is why we need much tougher gun laws.

[Honky Tonk]

Extremely unlikely scenario. Sounds like parroted NRA propaganda.

In reality, the vast majority of guns used in crimes were legally purchased by straw buyers, which is why we need much tougher gun laws.

Sounds like a parroted response from someone clueless.

[MikeM]

Soon you'll be packing up their childhood bedrooms and hidden under their mattresses you'll find hard copies of Detroit Economic Club meeting transcripts with photos of successful republican businessman Dan Gilbert used as bookmarks.

You'll confront them with this. They'll tell you they like Detroit. They'll be afraid of how you'll respond. But soon you'll adjust to this new reality and you'll love them just the same.

Wasn't this the guy complaining about the hysterical posts from OH3?

[Towne Cluber]

Extremely unlikely scenario. Sounds like parroted NRA propaganda.

In reality, the vast majority of guns used in crimes were legally purchased by straw buyers, which is why we need much tougher gun laws.

That claim simply isn't true. The vast majority of guns used in crimes are illegal and come either from the black market or are stolen.

[Honky Tonk]

First of all, it seems you are probably mistaken. As far as I can tell, most criminals get guns through straw purchases and/or corrupt gun dealers. I find widely varying percentages of guns used in crimes attributed to stolen guns, between 10-30-odd%, but not a nearly a majority.

Second, it seems to me like usually if a gun gets stolen, it is at least partially negligence. You shouldn't be leaving guns around where people can steal them. Also, gun owners seem to lose a lot of guns, or to not notice when they are stolen, which is also negligent, so they don't report them stolen, which is one reason it is hard to tell exactly how many are stolen vs. lost.

HEY, has anyone seen my gun? I seem to have lost it somewhere...

[401don]

First of all, it seems you are probably mistaken. As far as I can tell, most criminals get guns through straw purchases and/or corrupt gun dealers. I find widely varying percentages of guns used in crimes attributed to stolen guns, between 10-30-odd%, but not a nearly a majority.

Second, it seems to me like usually if a gun gets stolen, it is at least partially negligence. You shouldn't be leaving guns around where people can steal them. Also, gun owners seem to lose a lot of guns, or to not notice when they are stolen, which is also negligent, so they don't report them stolen, which is one reason it is hard to tell exactly how many are stolen vs. lost.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...car/659102002/

Gun safety laws are so lax that even a stupid politician can leave his gun in his car, have it stolen, and describe himself as a victim.

[JBMcB]

In reality, the vast majority of guns used in crimes were legally purchased by straw buyers, which is why we need much tougher gun laws.

That statistic, echoed through the media, comes from one guy working at the ATF. It hasn't been verified, peer reviewed or confirmed by independent researchers.

Getting data for this is pretty difficult. If someone is caught with a gun, do you think they are going to say "yeah I stole it from someone"? They are going to say they bought it at a store, or from a friend. It's up to the police to track down where the gun came from. Sometimes they go through the work of tracing the serial number to figure it out. Sometimes they don't.

[bust]

And if you read the very informative articles Dumpling shared, you'll learn why getting the data is so difficult. The NRA has successfully pushed to make it hard even for law enforcement to trace where guns come from.

Why do you think they don't want us to know?

[ABetterDetroit]

That statistic, echoed through the media, comes from one guy working at the ATF. It hasn't been verified, peer reviewed or confirmed by independent researchers.

Getting data for this is pretty difficult. If someone is caught with a gun, do you think they are going to say "yeah I stole it from someone"? They are going to say they bought it at a store, or from a friend. It's up to the police to track down where the gun came from. Sometimes they go through the work of tracing the serial number to figure it out. Sometimes they don't.

Really?

“No, No that’s all BS from a ATF guy... What you really need to believe is what is being reported here on a a web forum from someone that nobody knows who it is.”

[JBMcB]

“No, No that’s all BS from a ATF guy...”

Never said that. It's unverified. It very well may be true but the available data is difficult to process. I could be wrong. Show me the data and I'll accept the conclusion. As it is the best data I could find was this site:

https://www.atf.gov/about/firearms-trace-data-2014

Which comes with this disclaimer:
"The firearms selected do not constitute a random sample and should not be considered representative of the larger universe of all firearms used by criminals, or any subset of that universe"

Which is interesting, as a Washington Post article on the subject took that data and did just that:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.fedb859b04f6

[ABetterDetroit]

Never said that. It's unverified. It very well may be true but the available data is difficult to process. I could be wrong. Show me the data and I'll accept the conclusion. As it is the best data I could find was this site:

https://www.atf.gov/about/firearms-trace-data-2014

Which comes with this disclaimer:
"The firearms selected do not constitute a random sample and should not be considered representative of the larger universe of all firearms used by criminals, or any subset of that universe"

Which is interesting, as a Washington Post article on the subject took that data and did just that:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.fedb859b04f6

Fair enough. The post story is interesting.

I believe this isssue needs quality data that is lacking so that lawmakers can make the correct decisions that will save innocent lives and protect constitutional rights.

[cmubryan]

With the redevelopment of so many other neighborhoods and districts, itÂ’s been sometime since the wife and I have spent a weekend night in Greektown. Last night we thought we would pay our old hangout a visit.

We were very surprised by how much Greektown has changed over the course of the last 10-15 years or maybe we have just aged. It has become a hangout for gangster wannabes, other show off types, clubbing 20 year olds, etc. Cars blaring their subwoofers and bass. Police on every corner to control the crowds and make sure the rowdiness was kept in check. At least on a Friday night thatÂ’s what we experienced. Either we have aged or this neighborhood has changed.

[Bham1982]

Either we have aged or this neighborhood has changed.

No, your instincts were correct. The neighborhood started to radically transform once the temporary casino opened.

Honestly, the area should be renamed. There are so few Greek places left, all but one suck, and the neighborhood is characterized by the casino and the weekend street scene.