Windsor Casino Rejects 2nd Tentative Agreement

[Canadian Visitor]

You don't even know what you are talking about. If you buy something at a department store on impulse, you can take it back and get a full refund in 30 days. If you blow all your savings at the tables or a slot machine, the casino is not gonna give you a refund.



You're so full of sh-t. Show me the study that shows movie theatres create the same misery as casino gambling.

You're completely myopic and idealogue'ish ' on this subject.

Bham is on point.

When you buy a drink, or 3, or 5, or 10 do you get a refund if you had one too many? [[or 5 too many)?

No.

The responsibility is yours to know your limit, legally and otherwise.

Bars may bear a limited liability if they know you're driving and they serve you well past an acceptable point, but prosecutions are rare.

***

If you indulge in any form of over-spending on a consumable product where the experience is not 'returnable' you are out the money from the time you buy said experience/product/service.

There is no 30-day return policy on restaurant meals, or food you've already eaten, LOL

Nor on most forms of entertainment.

Ontario Casinos do have upper limits on what you can wager and do have programs to prohibit known problem gamblers.

How you get that offering someone the 'chance' win money, when they know, or ought to know the chance is slim, is immoral is beyond me.

[archfan]

I take issue with people who profit off the misery of others. Casino workers are not there for survival. It's not the great depression. Casino workers can find jobs elsewhere now as there's plenty of jobs available in today's market with the unemployment rate the lowest in decades, so there's no reason for them to be there except greed.

Casino workers profit off the misery of others. Now they want to profit off this misery even more?? At least the profits from the gaming commission goes towards paying for health care and mental health workers to help people whose lives have been ruined by casinos, while the profits from greedy casino workers goes straight to their pockets.

So, we should probably shut down Hiram Walker, too?

I get what you're saying, but both are legal businesses, selling to adults.

[archfan]

If there's a dispute over wages that means at the very least Caesars and the gaming commission aren't willing to accept less. Likewise, the province could find other revenue and Caesars other business opportunities.

So no one involved is a paragon of generosity or virtue, but it's only the working stiffs you have a problem with.

Now is this a moral objection or simply an attack on big, bad unions?

Thank you. This is a negotiation. The Caesars corporation's job is to pay their workers as little as possible, so they can make more money for their shareholders. The union's job is to get as much money as possible, so the members can eat and buy televisions and live life. At some point, they'll come up with a number they both can live with, and they'll both sign the contract.

Are the workers greedy? Are the shareholders? Or are each playing their role?

[davewindsor]

^ you ever been to see a chick flick,that can be boat loads of misery.

You're comparing watching a chick flick to people going broke at a casino? There's no connection.

People at casinos that win do not seem miserable.

It's the misery that happens after they go broke. Casinos promote a fantasy lifestyle of what it would be like to win a lot of money. We all know that doesn't happen; otherwise, the casino wouldn't be able to afford a payroll of 2,300 employees.

Anyrate,June 1st is a scheduled walkout deadline in Las Vegas with up to 50,000 employees.I wonder who is going through be booking rooms at that time.

Not relevant to Caesar's Windsor.

[davewindsor]

You're completely myopic and idealogue'ish ' on this subject.

Bham is on point.

When you buy a drink, or 3, or 5, or 10 do you get a refund if you had one too many? [[or 5 too many)?

No.

The responsibility is yours to know your limit, legally and otherwise.

Bars may bear a limited liability if they know you're driving and they serve you well past an acceptable point, but prosecutions are rare.

WRONG!

A lot of downtown bars in Windsor have had their licenses suspended or revoked for serving too many drinks. A lot of the bar names in downtown have changed and there are a lot of bars in downtown that are permanently closed. Guess why? Servers now have to take mandatory smart serve courses in Ontario. Insurance premiums have skyrocketed for liquor licensed establishments. You also can't go bankrupt going binge drinking one night like you can gambling at a casino.

And there other programs in place to limit how much you drink. Ride program stop checks and random checks by police. It's done on a regular basis. Police throwing people stumbling along the street into the drunk tank for the night and charging them with public intoxication. New laws making it the crime of rape to sleep with a woman that's intoxicated--women can't give consent while intoxicated under the law now.

Once a drunk individual is charged and shows up to court, the judge usually requires mandatory counseling with a mental health professional, a mental health report, and education as part of probation or they go straight to jail.

There's a lot of programs in place to deal with drinking that doesn't exist with casino gambling.

***

If you indulge in any form of over-spending on a consumable product where the experience is not 'returnable' you are out the money from the time you buy said experience/product/service.

There is no 30-day return policy on restaurant meals, or food you've already eaten, LOL

He said department stores, numb nuts.

BTW-You're not going to go bankrupt eating at a restaurant one night in Windsor. Many restaurants will refund you if you said the food was bad. McDonald's, for example, has a food guarantee if you have no conscience. If they don't refund, you can also refuse to pay at the end of your meal. The police might pick you up, but you're not paying for it and going broke.

Nor on most forms of entertainment.

Most forms of entertainment can't bankrupt you the first night you do it.

Ontario Casinos do have upper limits on what you can wager and do have programs to prohibit known problem gamblers.

And that's why Caesar's has a high rollers room, right? You can go bankrupt in one night at Caesar's casino. That's not the case for most other forms of entertainment. You're comparing apples to oranges.

And, the programs to prohibit gamblers are "VOLUNTARY"! The problem gambler has to ask to be put on the banned list. How useless is that?? Quite unlike Smart Serve where servers have a legal obligation to cut patrons off that are drunk.

How you get that offering someone the 'chance' win money, when they know, or ought to know the chance is slim, is immoral is beyond me.

Because you are profiting off the misery of others. Haven't you been paying attention this whole time?

[softailrider]

There are certain games in the casino where, if you are knowledgeable you can reduce the house advantage to under 3%. When you are at a blackjack table, and you basic strategy is perfect, you are able to count tens and aces in the decks or shoe AND you manage your money correctly the player can have a SLIGHT advantage over the house. When you’re playing at a blackjack table with automatic shuffle machines this may not be true. However, in a handheld or shoe game it is definitely true.

I am certainly not able to do the above, but I enjoy going to the casino a couple times a year, or if I’m on a long weekend up North. I probably lose most but not all of the time. I do not ever play slot machines, I stick with games where the house advantage is very low. Those casino visits haven’t turned me into a degenerate or made me file for bankruptcy.

[davewindsor]

So, we should probably shut down Hiram Walker, too?

I get what you're saying, but both are legal businesses, selling to adults.

Highly off topic. Hiram Walker's is not on strike and making outrageous demands.

[davewindsor]

There are certain games in the casino where, if you are knowledgeable you can reduce the house advantage to under 3%. When you are at a blackjack table, and you basic strategy is perfect, you are able to count tens and aces in the decks or shoe AND you manage your money correctly the player can have a SLIGHT advantage over the house. When you’re playing at a blackjack table with automatic shuffle machines this may not be true. However, in a handheld or shoe game it is definitely true.

I am certainly not able to do the above, but I enjoy going to the casino a couple times a year, or if I’m on a long weekend up North. I probably lose most but not all of the time. I do not ever play slot machines, I stick with games where the house advantage is very low. Those casino visits haven’t turned me into a degenerate or made me file for bankruptcy.

How much did you loose there this past year? I suspect you didn't mention it because you're the not the kind of patron that keeps it in business and 2,300 employees employed by not playing slots and sticking with games where the house advantage is very low and only showing up there a couple times a year. I don't think it would be in business if all their patrons had as much self-control as you. Can you even fathom how much money they need to make each day just to break even with such a huge payroll?

BTW--I never said someone who visits a casino and looses most of their money there is a degenerate. I was referring to the casino employees who profit off the misery of others.

[Richard]

You're comparing watching a chick flick to people going broke at a casino? There's no connection.

The connection is you have the option to walk out or not enter in the first place.

It's the misery that happens after they go broke. Casinos promote a fantasy lifestyle of what it would be like to win a lot of money. We all know that doesn't happen; otherwise, the casino wouldn't be able to afford a payroll of 2,300 employees.

Kinda like the lottery that every state pretty much has or when sears had a sale on tools.But that is a part of being an adult,sometimes you just do not win all of the time.

Maybe the casinos can start giving out participation trophy's at the door so it would make people feel better.

Not relevant to Caesar's Windsor.

Neither is the discussion about regulating adult vices or forms of entertainment that we do not agree with,we can disagree with them which is our right,but the topic was about union beefs verses management.

People profit from misery whether it is self inflicted or not,funeral homes and even cute as a box of new born puppies Hallmark cards,you cannot save the world by elimination misery,because then there would be no company,in the plural sense,if you get that one.

What is getting ready to happen in Las Vegas has everything to do with Caeser's Windsor because of a little thing called prevailing wage and what the industry standard is.

The question that remains is now that the economy is doing well and that is a part of the argument of raising the wages,what happens in the next down turn?

Will they be able to retain the level of employees consistently,the experts are saying that the next recession is in 2020 based on cycles of the past,so any concessions made now are going to be interesting to watch and see how it plays out.

If they are saying the casino is making more money now in the rise the same argument will be used in a downturn with layoffs and back to the table again for cuts.

[Wesley Mouch]

...snip...
Will they be able to retain the level of employees consistently,the experts are saying that the next recession is in 2020 based on cycles of the past,so any concessions made now are going to be interesting to watch and see how it plays out.

If they are saying the casino is making more money now in the rise the same argument will be used in a downturn with layoffs and back to the table again for cuts.

Richard makes a good point. [[In the US at least), corporations cannot conspire/collude on wages.

But Unions can conspire and collude. They are allowed to strategize on wages. And what one company agrees to is used in negotiation and in arbitration to legally set the wages that MUST be paid. In this way, Union wages are very sticky.

I am not saying this is the case here, but an American union representing casino workers in Vegas could financially support their brothers and sister in Windsor financially and legally to get the highest wage possible there. Then that fact could be used to require a Vegas casino to pay a wage based on that.

And we know that its not legal for GM to support Ford during their own hard labor times.

[Bham1982]

Richard makes a good point. [[In the US at least), corporations cannot conspire/collude on wages.

Why not? They do this all the time. There is nothing illegal about corporations colluding on wages. There are antitrust laws, of course, but there is no general ban on corporations colluding on such matters.

[Bigdd]

Are the workers greedy? Are the shareholders? Or are each playing their role?

Exactly.

Though the negotiation is highly rigged in favor of the unions [[as with auto unions). The workers can [[presumably) go work elsewhere. But the casinos, car manufacturers have MASSIVE capital investments. The payments on which are hard to imagine. A 2-week shut-down is a loss of a paycheck to the employees,.. but represents perhaps months or a year of profit for the company. That's why as a company,.. you try never to build a plant in a union state. The down-side risk is just too big. You can't negotiate on a level playing field.

[Canadian Visitor]

Exactly.

Though the negotiation is highly rigged in favor of the unions [[as with auto unions). The workers can [[presumably) go work elsewhere. But the casinos, car manufacturers have MASSIVE capital investments. The payments on which are hard to imagine. A 2-week shut-down is a loss of a paycheck to the employees,.. but represents perhaps months or a year of profit for the company. That's why as a company,.. you try never to build a plant in a union state. The down-side risk is just too big. You can't negotiate on a level playing field.

This is just sheer nonsense.

Lets be clear about this, the typical casino worker earns a little above minimum wage.

Most live pay cheque to pay cheque or very close to it.

They don't have huge savings to fall back on, and they do need food each an every week and rent and mortgages to pay.

Caesars and OLG [[the gov't of ON) have amply deep pockets, and will not teeter at the edge of bankruptcy if shuttered for a week or even a month.

The playing field isn't level, its slanted in favour of the business. I say this as an investor and executive; one who by the way does not pay a single employee below $24 per hour including seasonals because I base my business on being ethical and a good employer.

Apart from that, lets add that Ontario's economy is running full-tilt, with historically low unemployment, and decent'ish economic growth coming in the mid 2's most quarters.

It attracts new foreign direct investment all the time, including in manufacturing.

The notion that all work is going to states that enshrine the right of employers to be miserable @#$# is drivel.

Even if it weren't, it would be indefensible.

I am so tired of hearing these ill-informed, opinions that amount to cry me a river for the rich.

The answer to the plight of the Michigan auto worker is not union-busting. Its raising the wage and benefits of workers in Mexico and Alabama; its also lowering healthcare costs in the US, especially for retirees, and that could be done by making medicare more comprehensive, lowering absurdly high drug costs, and lowering medicare eligibility to age 60 which would radically reduce the cost of the remaining private insurance.

Forcing workers to earn crap wages with no benefits such that the jobs aren't worth having is not the answer.

[Richard]

^ So as an executive you would except the same livable wage as you would pay your employees?Or do you enjoy a higher salary?

Are your employees paid based on how much the company makes or how much you feel they should make and how do you come to that number?

If your company is showing growth one year but less growth the next,do you adjust the employees salary to coencide?

Not trying to be argumentative but I have always paid based on industry standards and skill sets,with end of the year bonus for productivity the casino workers for the most part would be considered service industry workers.

I guess the dealers make more but they also receive tips,and nothing to sneeze at from what I hear anyways.

I can walk to the Hard Rock by me but have never been in there,the parking lot and garages are packed 24/7,I have a friend that hires there and she says they receive up to 300 applications per week but really the only way to get hired is if you know somebody,the pay is not all that great and they have a high turnover but they also have a long line waiting to get in.

Most large businesses run such,as they are a buisness and they are not required to be the good guys,and people have that choice except what is offered or go elsewhere,that is capitalism and maybe the downside of it but it still is not anywhere near as bad as socialism where you do not have a choice.

[Bigdd]

This is just sheer nonsense.

Lets be clear about this, the typical casino worker earns a little above minimum wage.

Most live pay cheque to pay cheque or very close to it.

They don't have huge savings to fall back on, and they do need food each an every week and rent and mortgages to pay.

Caesars and OLG [[the gov't of ON) have amply deep pockets, and will not teeter at the edge of bankruptcy if shuttered for a week or even a month.

The playing field isn't level, its slanted in favour of the business. I say this as an investor and executive;

Apart from that, lets add that Ontario's economy is running full-tilt, with historically low unemployment,

If Ontario's unemployment is so low,.. then all employers will be fighting for good workers. And having to pay them more and more to keep the good ones.

I also am an employer,.. and when the economy goes down,.. I can't really reduce wages,.. but for sure I have to increase wages to get good employees when times are good. And I give raises before they ask for them. In fact I have done 3 significant rounds of increases in just the last year and a half to make sure I don't loose valuable employees.

If Ceasers can't get good employees,.. they'll have to raise wages. If they have all the great employees they need,.. then the pay they offer now is appropriate.

Finding and training employees is very expensive. Advertising for them, doing interviews and background checks, training stipends, paying the person who is training them, the costs of the mistakes they will invariably make while new, adding them to payroll,.. etc, etc, etc. Employers have to factor that cost in too. Casino work isn't like digging ditches where it pays to run a meat grinder.

In other words,... the free market takes care of this automatically.

[Canadian Visitor]

If Ontario's unemployment is so low,.. then all employers will be fighting for good workers. And having to pay them more and more to keep the good ones.
...

If Ceasers can't get good employees,.. they'll have to raise wages. If they have all the great employees they need,.. then the pay they offer now is appropriate.
...

In other words,... the free market takes care of this automatically.

Except that has not been holding true as of late.

http://windsorstar.com/news/local-ne...-local-economy

Many employers have been resisting paying a market wage and holding out for people to agree to crappy terms.

Not sure when this disease of the mind took hold.

[Bigdd]

Except that has not been holding true as of late.

http://windsorstar.com/news/local-ne...-local-economy

Many employers have been resisting paying a market wage and holding out for people to agree to crappy terms.

Not sure when this disease of the mind took hold.

Can't see how the guy in that article wouldn't simply raise his prices a bit,.. and the wages he offers accordingly. If demand out-paces supply,.. your prices are low.

I faced that same situation in Arizona in the late 90's. I had a couple air-conditioning companies. We would have a classified ad running in the R&G [[The paper there) every day. Guys would call and ask about the job [[an un-skilled position). Then we'd get to pay. I'd ask them what they were making now. They'd say something like $9.50 an hour. I'd then ask them what they'd LIKE to make. They'd say something like $11 an hour. I'd respond "Great,.. you start tomorrow at $13." I NEVER ONCE had anyone show up. Not one. not in 2-3 years of doing that. Same with temp workers. We'd pay a temp company $9.50 or whatever for an employee [[the poor fella had likely been standing at the Work Force office in some old strip mall since 5 am or so to try to get a job that day). After WF and the IRS took their chunks out,. the poor guy would be lucky to take home $25 for the entire day. If they were even half-way descent I'd offer to employ them directly at $12-$15 an hour [[90's money). Only one ever came back for day two. [[Out of perhaps 50 over a 3 year period). I'm not making that up. They could have made $100+ A DAY instead of $20,.. and come to work at 7 or 8 instead of 5 or 6,... and they'd still just not show up. I could never figure that out.


We'd also put up flyers at all the supply houses for semi-skilled workers [[not licensed, but having previously done some service work,.. I.E. journeyman). Offering $1,000 signing bonus,. a new fully equipped van that they can take home at night, health insurance, a cell phone, and $25 an hour to start. Never once had any of the phone numbers torn off the bottom of those flyers.

Of course that was in the days following the Clinton era repeal of Glass-Steagal,.. where everyone with a heart-beat got a mortgage,.. and building went crazy. [[resulting in a housing crash years later in 06-08).

But that was an artificially odd time. If so many businesses are desperate for workers,. the casino workers should be reading the help wanted section,.. and simply taking better paying jobs elsewhere. Then when the casino starts running short of employees to run it's operations,.. they'll have to raise wages.

Unless the employees are simply too lazy to do that,.. in which case perhaps they aren't worth a raise? Who knows,.. it's all on a case by case basis.

Unions usually stunt personal and wage growth, at least for the better employees. The best employees are prevented from rising faster in the ranks than normal, and from getting huge raises. At the same time preventing the worst employees from getting wage decreases, demotions, or being terminated all together.

Then the best employees [[feeling stymied) leave for other pastures,.. and the average worker quality creeps downward. Few really great employees will stay in a union job long term.

[davewindsor]

You're comparing watching a chick flick to people going broke at a casino? There's no connection.

The connection is you have the option to walk out or not enter in the first place.

That's not a connection. Going to a movie theatre one night might set you back $20, but going to Caesar's to gamble one night could bankrupt you. One is purely entertainment because there's a cap on how much you can realistically loose and it's insignificant.

A gambling house creates an opportunity for misery that wouldn't be there if it didn't exist.

Just like if you leave your keys in your car in Detroit when you run into a convenience store. You create an opportunity for misery. There's a good chance your car will get stolen by marginal passerby, especially if they are high or intoxicated. Now, an intoxicated driver steals the car and hits somebody or crashes into something causing further misery including misery from the intoxicated driver getting injured, there's added health care costs on the taxpayer and increased insurance premiums, all because someone created an opportunity by leaving their keys inside the car while walking inside a building.

Casinos create an opportunity for misery in society that wouldn't exist if it wasn't there.

It's the misery that happens after they go broke. Casinos promote a fantasy lifestyle of what it would be like to win a lot of money. We all know that doesn't happen; otherwise, the casino wouldn't be able to afford a payroll of 2,300 employees.

Kinda like the lottery that every state pretty much has or when sears had a sale on tools.But that is a part of being an adult,sometimes you just do not win all of the time.

Lotteries is gambling. I am opposed to that too, but we're talking about casino gambling at Caesar's. I don't know how a sale on tools at even Sears makes sense because you can return your tools to Sears in 30 days for a full refund or sell it in the paper for a partial refund, but you can't get your money back once you spent it at a casino. Which leads to another issue some people like to refer to gambler's syndrome where they start playing a game, loose money, and then continue playing trying to win back the money they lost, which rarely happens.

A lot of adults are not perfectly rational in their choices, so it's not part of being an adult. That's why they vote for politicians to regulate their lives. A purely libertarian answer doesn't work because the majority of people don't vote for the libertarian party and believe society should be completely unregulated and adults can be trusted making free choices on everything.

Maybe the casinos can start giving out participation trophy's at the door so it would make people feel better.

Casinos do a lot of things to try to make people feel better. Free drinks, comps, concert tickets, etc. All things to make them feel better to try to get them back to spend more.

Not relevant to Caesar's Windsor.


Neither is the discussion about regulating adult vices or forms of entertainment that we do not agree with,we can disagree with them which is our right,but the topic was about union beefs verses management.

People profit from misery whether it is self inflicted or not,funeral homes and even cute as a box of new born puppies Hallmark cards,you cannot save the world by elimination misery,because then there would be no company,in the plural sense,if you get that one.

People profiting from selling puppies and hallmark cards or anything else is misery? That's not misery. What are you, a communist?

What is getting ready to happen in Las Vegas has everything to do with Caeser's Windsor because of a little thing called prevailing wage and what the industry standard is.

No, it doesn't. You are there to make the company money. If you're not making money for the company, you should be fired. If you don't like your wages, quit and find work elsewhere. If their job was worth more, they would pay more so they wouldn't be understaffed and there wouldn't be a need for a strike for more money.

Funny how your first response to my post was "you have the option to walk out or not enter in the first place."

Well, the employee has the same option to walk out and quit and work somewhere else instead of going on strike and preventing the casino from hiring someone else to do the job.

[ASilvaman]

The union greed is absolutely ridiculous. It gives Windsor a bad name. Caesar's should pull out and the OLG should tear down the casino like the Windsor Racetrack. No one I know supports those retards. They're already paid a lot more than minimum wage and they were offered a $2.25 an hour wage increase plus a $1,600 sign on bonus for full timers and $1,200 for part-timers and they get huge tips on top of that.

I spoke to a black jack dealer at Greek Town a year ago and he told me he made $7 an hour plus tips. The tips made it double to triple. How is Caesar's supposed to compete with the comps offered by the Detroit 3? Caesar's has 2,300 employees on their payroll and they have to deal with this union BS?? It never turned a profit before it was run by Caesar's.

Tear the casino down and those union pricks can go collect welfare or get a real job in a factory. It gets me so upset reading about it every couple days and everyone I know says the same thing. The average Windsor resident thinks they've lost their minds.

What gets me upset is when people such as yourself say that factory jobs are the only real job. I guess everyone else from law enforcement to nurses and construction folks are just flunkies collecting paycheck for nothing. You're nothing unless your in a factory standing next to a robot that's basically doing the hard work for you? Let me be the first to tell you that your so-called real jobs are gonna be obsolete in 5 years, what are manly men gonna call a "real job" then?

[Richard]

Dave

I agree,if an employee is happy they should quit and move on to better things,if the casino has a hard time finding employees then they would increase the wages to fill the demand.That is kinda how it works,the whole supply and demand thing.

Even at that I find probably 1 out of 10 applicants that actually work,so start out at prevailing wage and if they show potential then you raise their wages,it is a waste of money to hire at top pay starting out.

Workers are no different then employers when it comes to responsibility,rate of pay does not guarantee dedication,no matter how much you pay,if an employee gets a better offer they are gone without a second thought or notice,so it is a double edge sword.

On the lighter side,I used to date a Chinese girl,her father would get mad at her mother and grab his mistress and hop on a plane from Orlando to Vegas and blow a million dollars and be back by 6,that was his therapy,it must have worked because they were married over 60 years.

Putting you two together would have been interesting entertainment to watch.

I rarely gamble,mostly because I suck at it,but that does not make me feel I should encourage the government to regulate everybody else's feelings on it.We do not need to government looking out for our best interest 24/7,that's that whole dictatorship thing again.

[Richard]

What gets me upset is when people such as yourself say that factory jobs are the only real job. I guess everyone else from law enforcement to nurses and construction folks are just flunkies collecting paycheck for nothing. You're nothing unless your in a factory standing next to a robot that's basically doing the hard work for you? Let me be the first to tell you that your so-called real jobs are gonna be obsolete in 5 years, what are manly men gonna call a "real job" then?

That mindset has become all to common,unless you have a piece of paper with 10 degrees on it your dirt.That is why teachers,Leo,firefighters etc get so much disrespect.

My favorite is handing a lawyer a bill for $300 and watching their reaction,it is always,what ? It has only been an hour,I say yep and if I hired you it would be $500 an hour,that will be cash only please.

Anybody working a respectable job should be given the same respect that one expects in return,it does not matter what it is.

[Wesley Mouch]

Why not? They do this all the time. There is nothing illegal about corporations colluding on wages. There are antitrust laws, of course, but there is no general ban on corporations colluding on such matters.

The Department of Justice's ANTI-TRUST GUIDANCE FOR HUMAN RESOURCE PROFESSIONALS suggests otherwise:

An agreement among competitors to set wages or establish a pay scale is an illegal wage-fixing agreement.

and elsewhere...

Additionally, merely inviting a competitor to enter into an illegal agreement may be an antitrust violation – even if the invitation does not result in an agreement to fix wages or otherwise limit competition.

And you were right that it is based on anti-trust law, specifically the Sherman Act of 1896.

I was surprised at the depth of this ban. It can be criminal. And even steps such as a survey of wages can be illegal.

Unions, on the other hand, are exempt from price fixing, since their basic legally defined goal is price fixing [[my words, but the basis for the exemption).

Q.E.D. There is 'general ban' on wage collusion.

[davewindsor]

What gets me upset is when people such as yourself say that factory jobs are the only real job. I guess everyone else from law enforcement to nurses and construction folks are just flunkies collecting paycheck for nothing. You're nothing unless your in a factory standing next to a robot that's basically doing the hard work for you? Let me be the first to tell you that your so-called real jobs are gonna be obsolete in 5 years, what are manly men gonna call a "real job" then?

I guess there's a misunderstanding about what I meant about that statement. I never said factory work was the only real job. A factory worker isn't profiting off the misery of others like a casino employee. Casino workers are generally unskilled laborers, so they could easily quit the casino job and work in a factory. Nothing wrong with working in law enforcement, nursing, construction, etc. It's real work. But, to be a nurse, you need years of education first so it's not easy for a casino worker to transfer over to that field. But if they found a job immediately after quitting in the police department or in construction, that's fine because they are not profiting off the misery of others.

[davewindsor]

On the lighter side,I used to date a Chinese girl,her father would get mad at her mother and grab his mistress and hop on a plane from Orlando to Vegas and blow a million dollars and be back by 6,that was his therapy,it must have worked because they were married over 60 years.

Putting you two together would have been interesting entertainment to watch.

Oh ya, it would be interesting. I know people who gamble. One night one tells me his wife said she will divorce him if he loses any more money at the casino and then he's like, "Hey, I feel lucky, I want to go to the casino because it's a short walk nearby." I don't know how I got dragged there, but I watch him initially win, tell him repeatedly he's ahead, it's good, let's get out of here, and he continues playing until he loses all of his money. Later he tells me how his wife was swearing at him for losing all of their money. It makes me sick to my stomach.

[Bham1982]

The Department of Justice's ANTI-TRUST GUIDANCE FOR HUMAN RESOURCE PROFESSIONALS suggests otherwise:

No, they don't.

You claimed that corporate collusion was illegal, which is wrong. Companies can, and do, collude all the time. Price-fixing is illegal, but collusion is not illegal. Companies can collude to set price ranges and the like, but they cannot set specific prices.

There are specific, limited types of corporate collusion that are illegal. But collusion, by itself, is legal.