Rackham Golf Course

[GMan]

So there should be no municipal golf courses, just because golf is an expensive form of recreation?

Golf really isn't that expensive. Just depends on how many Beers you consume and how many golf balls you lose.

[Dumpling]

It is against the golf course rules to consume alcohol at
Rackham Golf Course. This is a somewhat out of date
list of the rules. The prohibition against alcohol may
well go back to the original deed restrictions.

http://whenduffscry.atspace.com/rackham.html

it is rule one here

[GMan]

It is against the golf course rules to consume alcohol at
Rackham Golf Course. This is a somewhat out of date
list of the rules. The prohibition against alcohol may
well go back to the original deed restrictions.

http://whenduffscry.atspace.com/rackham.html

it is rule one here

Might be an old deed restriction. The old management company holds liquor licenses at Rouge and Chandler park courses.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...ing-closure-as

[O3H]

Always amazed at what gets the """sport""" designation when it usually involves alcohol in large amounts - like golf, darts, bowling, etc.

[Dumpling]

Post #8, from ABetterDetroit, has a link to the 2017-2018
Budget For Huntington Woods which is lengthy and detailed.

Page 82 of the Budget shows the allocation to pay bonds
for the GWK basin, so, Huntington Woods does contribute
both money and runoff to GWK.

[O3H]

GWK aka 12Towns costs a tremendous amount - each and every year

https://redrundrain.files.wordpress....3/gwkstorm.jpg

https://redrundrain.files.wordpress..../gwksewage.jpg

[Dumpling]

O3H, would you happen to know how the varying charges
for the various participating communities are arrived at?

[[Rackham Golf Course is broken out as a separate entity
from the rest of Huntington Woods. Combining it with
the Huntington Woods charges makes the sum closer to
the average charge.)

There is ZERO chance of this happening, BUT the footprint
of Rackham Golf Course plus the zoo is large enough such
that, with enough investment in the infrastructure, landscaping,
and facilities, the Detroit Grand Prix could be held at
that location.

[O3H]

I really don't know the specifics of the fee schedule for GWK.
Probably fine tuned over 3 to 4 decades of operations.
The golf course upon the Red Run, was to actually disguise it.

https://i2.wp.com/redrundrain.files....-red-run-1.jpg

https://i2.wp.com/redrundrain.files....-red-run-2.jpg

[Dumpling]

Thank you, I like that newspaper article from 1977!
[[or thereabouts)

[Dumpling]

I have not read anything to the effect that watering the
Red Oaks Golf Course, associated with the G.W. Kuhn
Basin, is too costly.

Is the Basin still about 64 MG [[million gallons) in capacity?

This is about Rackham Golf Course:

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...ing-closure-as

[Dumpling]

Apparently in 2006 Rackham Golf Course was designated as
a Historic District:

http://www.hwmi.org/Rackham_Golf_Cou...c_District.jpg

Of course the reason I came upon this was that I was trying
to find out if one could put a 64 million gallon basin in there.

The basin, using the conversion factor 7.48 gallons per cubic
foot, could measure 100 feet deep by 300 square feet per side
square area.

Rackham Golf Course itself is 0.75 mile on one edge which is
3960 feet. So if the entire golf course [[purely hypothetically
speaking) were a retention basin it would be 3960 feet by 3960
feet by 100 feet deep. This would be 1173 million gallons [[MG).

So you could not [[hypothetically speaking) put a basin larger
than that in there. [[Unless it was deeper that 100 feet.)

The stormwater overflow from the Kuhn Basin was 378 MG
for the 4/14/18 rain event and 534 MG for the 5/12/18 rain
event based on info recently referenced in the Red Run Drain
Wordpress site.

So if one wanted to use Rackham Golf Course for a retention
basin as well as a golf course, and it was designed to store
the overflow from Kuhn [[or water that eventually would
become overflow from Kuhn), right about half of the golf
course would be over a 100 foot deep retention basin.

Using a generic guesstimate of $2.3 million per MG retention
basin capacity [[not taking any relevant special considerations
into account) a 500 MG basin would cost $1.15 billion dollars
to construct.

[gencinjay]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there is only one heir left. I do know for certain that the zoo maintains a very close relationship with that heir. If they came to her, I would think she'd be happy to turn it over to them.

[Dumpling]

So it seems that the City of Detroit could turn the Rackham Golf Course
and Detroit Zoo land over to that heir and it could be in turn transferred
to the Detroit Zoological Society. [[With all of the deed restrictions still
in place? )

[O3H]

Options need exploration -- Detroit needs to be financially sound --

[softailrider]

Options need exploration -- Detroit needs to be financially sound --

So what does that mean? That the city is so fucked up it can’t even run a golf course and make a profit in an absolute prime area that’s always packed with players? If that’s the case, it’s pretty sad.

[O3H]

There is little money to be made........

""Revenue for the golf courses was about $42,000 in 2017.
That’s down from about $104,000 the prior year
and $125,000 in the three fiscal years before that.
Beckham said revenue dropped because a portion
went toward settling a $442,000 water bill Vargo had for the courses.""

Charlie Beckham, group executive of the Duggan administration’s
Department of Neighborhoods, is hoping to get Detroit out of the golf business.

[Wesley Mouch]

...Golf’s Environmental Impact - It's an artificial man-made area !!!

Nothing man made is good?

- Pollution of ground water and surface water caused by
the use of pesticides, fertilizers, and other contaminants
- Degradation or loss of natural areas via intensively
managed landscapes and non-native plants
- Increased conflicts with wildlife, insects, birds/waterfowl

And how does this vary from any other use the site might be put to. A strip mall on 10 Mile Road would be less toxic than a golf course?

Golf courses involve people with money $$$$$$$$$$
Obviously they lobby, use PR, etc. to ""educate"" folks on
how wonderful, pristine, beautiful, clean, etc., etc. they are.

There are golfers of all types. Rich, and not so rich. Yes, golf is a social tool of the rich, but that doesn't mean it isn't enjoyed by all kinds of people. Civic provision of golf is perfectly reasonable, and could make it possible for all citizens to participate and enjoy.

Did you know a Golf Course carries Liability Insurance
- exactly for the fact they have TOXIC chemicals on site,
with exposure to humans, ground water, wildlife. ???

What? They have liability insurance to cover all their liabilities. So does every business of any means to protect themselves from, well, liability such as slip & falls by customers. I suppose a standard liability policy would cover liability related to storage and appropriate use of lawn fertilizer and such. But that's such a small issue here, and certainly not the main reason someone carries liability insurance. Liability risk from 'toxic' chemicals is probably extremely far down the list.

And while I'm at it... toxic is so overused. Yes, a golf course might have toxic chemicals. Pretty much everybody does. Household bleach is toxic. So is pretty much every household chemical you use. If you are a business, you are expected to maintain OSHA-approved practices for storage and labelling.

[David L]

Like it or not, golf is a declining sport. Courses are closing all over the country and many are struggling. The Zoo has a limited footprint. Ultimately the course should be annexed to the zoo.

[Dumpling]

The Detroit Zoo certainly has more advocates and visitors
than the golf course plus a dedicated millage which was
passed in about 2008.

Like the Rackham Golf Course, it was underfunded prior
to 2008, while it was being managed by the City of Detroit,
which had many, many other funding priorities at the
time. Prior to 2008 there was little or no advertising
for the Zoo. After the zoo management change there
was advertising for the Zoo, and then more visitors.
There was a virtuous circle for the Zoo as compared
to the Rackham Golf Course.

[[Though not in all quarters.)

http://www.macombdaily.com/article/M...WS01/130129849

[Dumpling]

Perhaps because the Rackham Golf Course still belongs to the City of Detroit, it is not advantageous for the Detroit Zoo to highlight it in their advertising.

Part of my thinking is to utilize the golf course for water runoff. It appears to be the high hill of the Red Run Clinton River watershed though. Even so, if all of Huntington Woods drained to it during a
heavy rainfall, that would be good. That CSO basin would be from
60 to 120 MG.

Meininger Park, in Royal Oak, more or less on the straight Red Run
Drain diagonal between the Zoo and the GWK basin, does have
some kind of basin located at the corner of Maple and Farnum.
I can't find any documentation for it at this moment.

The snow dump trucks used to dump their snow in it when I lived
there. There used to be snow hills piled right there too.

[softailrider]

Like it or not, golf is a declining sport. Courses are closing all over the country and many are struggling. The Zoo has a limited footprint. Ultimately the course should be annexed to the zoo.

You’re absolutely right but in this instance you’re absolutely wrong. Rackham Is very busy, from dusk until dawn every day that’s playable. It’s green fees and cart fees are not cheap. The lack of alcohol service does cut down on revenue. The course is in a prime location and has been drawing player from all over the area. This has been the case for decades, many, many decades.

[O3H]

There is little profit at Rackam -- Detroit News/FreePress --

"""The city's revenue from its four courses
-- Rackham, Rouge Park, Chandler Park and Palmer Park --
was $41,666 as of late October, 2016.
That's less than the $104,166 the city received in 2015
and the $125,000 it got the year before.""""

They are dying - https://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...enue/94279254/

Golf - is dying - for decades .

[archfan]

There was this from before 2008:

[softailrider]

There is little profit at Rackam -- Detroit News/FreePress --

"""The city's revenue from its four courses
-- Rackham, Rouge Park, Chandler Park and Palmer Park --
was $41,666 as of late October, 2016.
That's less than the $104,166 the city received in 2015
and the $125,000 it got the year before.""""

They are dying - https://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...enue/94279254/

Golf - is dying - for decades .

Managed at that time [[or mismanaged) by Vargo. They did a terrible job, everybody knew that they were doing a terrible job but Detroit kept renewing their contract. I have no explanation for that. If the city can’t turn a profit of Rackham, with the amount of play they get, there’s something wrong. It’s one group after another teeing off there, as I mention previously, green fees and cart fees aren’t cheap, as expensive or slightly more then other area golf courses. it’s very busy, always has been. Close that course, or turn it into something else and there will be a revolt.

Years ago, American Golf ran Rackham and Rouge Park. They did a great job - both courses were in terrific shape.

I dont know know who’s running those two courses now, or what kind of shape their in [[good I hope) I haven’t been to either yet, I’ve been playing elsewhere in the area.

[Bham1982]

Like it or not, golf is a declining sport. Courses are closing all over the country and many are struggling. The Zoo has a limited footprint. Ultimately the course should be annexed to the zoo.

The Detroit Zoo has an enormous footprint and is already too spread out. Compare to Toledo Zoo, which is much more visitor friendly. The last thing it needs is more land.

Rackham, if it's inherently money-losing, should be sold to Huntington Woods for a public park. No way would the neighbors ever accept the site being developed.

Golf, in the long-run, is in deep trouble. Practically no one under 50 plays golf, and the "rules" of modern parenting, where fathers are actively involved, leaves no room for an afternoon of golf. Takes too damn long, and subject to vagaries of weather.

Country clubs, too, are in deep doo-doo, for same reasons [[changes to parenting and lifestyle). What person under 50 "entertains" at a country club? Outside of Oakland Hills, which has a world-class course, country clubs are [[secretly) desperate for members, even the "fancy" ones.

Also, companies used to give free country club membership to executives. Nowadays, this is a very rare perk. Wives used to spend all day with the kids at the club pool. This era is over.