Detroits population tipping point

[Crumbled_pavement]

Detroit is not worth saving.

Lowell needs to enable signatures because this would be mine.

Population zero here we come. At that point we will have the lowest poverty, homeless, illiteracy, high school drop out, crime, and tax rates in the country.

[stinkbug]

Then why are you here? Got no friends, job, or significant other?

[Crumbled_pavement]

Then why are you here? Got no friends, job, or significant other?

I think you need those things so you can recognize sarcasm.

[2blocksaway]

Mostly bullshit. I can argue that black culture is block clubs, family reunions, and church[[which is all true), and white culture is strip malls, gated communities, and racism. Yeah, Macomb Township is a real fucking bastion of culture. I can't wait to take my kids to Best Buy, and then drive next door to Applebee's.
When white flight began, fueled by racism, they started and endless downward spiral. For a couple decades now black people have maintained our region's central city while white people have chose to denigrate it on every occasion.

I can also argue that "black culture is eating Popeyes, then driving next door the get a 40 and white culture is not cutting the lawn around your trailer or the car on blocks next to it. Who cares? WE all have issues.

I think the problems is that white flight began in part because black people were not "maintaining" their houses or the city.

[stinkbug]

I can also argue that "black culture is eating Popeyes, then driving next door the get a 40 and white culture is not cutting the lawn around your trailer or the car on blocks next to it. Who cares? WE all have issues.

I think the problems is that white flight began in part because black people were not "maintaining" their houses or the city.

Or the fact that black people were black people.
Pretty sure people weren't riled up because Ossian Sweet wasn't maintaining his house.
I can't believe how willing we are to ignore or deny the deep racism and racial mistrust of this region that has effectively destroyed it. We will never learn. We deserve everything we're getting.

[Maxine1958]

The first 'black' family that bought a home and moved onto our block in Detroit were lovely people. Kept their house, lawn and yard neat and tidy. Had new awnings and some siding work done within the first few years they lived there. No one else on the block moved out.

Then the growing family across the street from us, a family I babysat for often, bought a larger home - yes, out in the suburbs - and sold their upgraded bungalow. The bi-racial, blended 'family' that moved in became the turning point. Within one year what once was a beautiful home was destroyed. They carried the carpeting out in pieces. The father nailed windows shut so the older children couldn't sneak out at night. They broke the windows and got out anyway. Their garage burnt down. Then their next-door-neighbor's garage burnt down. Then the same next-door-neighbor, a sweet 80+ year old woman was found dead, of a heart attack, in her living room. Within a season, they had set that house on fire too. How do I know it was members of that family? Because they bragged about not getting caught.

Within five years, half the families on the block moved out and their houses sold. Some to young couples starting out. Others - well - let's say to slum-lords in the making.

Just an example of why 'white' people left the city. Oh and the fact that any garage that wasn't lockable was stripped of anything that could be sold. After our electric lawnmower went 'missing', we noticed a neighbor mowing his lawn with one that looked strangely familiar.

[crawford]

People generally did not leave because black folks were moving in.

They left because
1. Property values were declining or would soon decline
2. Crime and social disorder were increasing or would soon increase
3. The schools were crapifying or would soon crapify
4. The neighborhood had changed, or would soon change, and was no longer "theirs".

Regarding this last point, no, it is not because the newcomers were black, it is because the demographic changes caused a radical alteration in neighborhood character.

The neighborhood Italian place became a soul food restaurant, the grocery store no longer stocked olive oil, the old German dudes no longer hung out in the park, the beauty salon now treated "different" hair, etc.

[crawford]

Mostly bullshit. I can argue that black culture is block clubs, family reunions, and church[[which is all true), and white culture is strip malls, gated communities, and racism. Yeah, Macomb Township is a real fucking bastion of culture. I can't wait to take my kids to Best Buy, and then drive next door to Applebee's.

While I generally agree with this, I think most would admit that there is something beyond racism that is holding back black communities. African American communities are the only ones in the nation that no one else wants to live in. Even the richer ones are undesirable to everyone else.

Not just whites, but Asians, Latinos, and everyone else. Even immigrant blacks generally steer clear of African American communities [[most immigrant blacks in metro Detroit live in more mixed suburban communities).

So why is that? Why would an immigrant from West Africa prefer a crappy ranch in a non-black neighborhood over a beautiful home in Northwest Detroit. And if you say because of schools, safety, etc., you are talking about a city where all the decisionmakers are African American, and you are seeing a situation where basically no one else will live there.

[R8RBOB]

While I generally agree with this, I think most would admit that there is something beyond racism that is holding back black communities. African American communities are the only ones in the nation that no one else wants to live in. Even the richer ones are undesirable to everyone else.

Not just whites, but Asians, Latinos, and everyone else. Even immigrant blacks generally steer clear of African American communities [[most immigrant blacks in metro Detroit live in more mixed suburban communities).

So why is that? Why would an immigrant from West Africa prefer a crappy ranch in a non-black neighborhood over a beautiful home in Northwest Detroit. And if you say because of schools, safety, etc., you are talking about a city where all the decisionmakers are African American, and you are seeing a situation where basically no one else will live there.

This is hyperbole. You are right but you are wrong too and you had to go way over the top. Lay off the hyperbole and make the point.

[Maxine1958]

No, I think he's asking a question and I would like to know the answer also.

All the lovely neighborhoods I used to know in the city are ALL crap now. Why? Just because 'we white people' moved out? I don't buy it.

[Retroit]

Mostly bullshit. I can argue that black culture is block clubs, family reunions, and church[[which is all true), and white culture is strip malls, gated communities, and racism. Yeah, Macomb Township is a real fucking bastion of culture. I can't wait to take my kids to Best Buy, and then drive next door to Applebee's.
When white flight began, fueled by racism, they started and endless downward spiral. For a couple decades now black people have maintained our region's central city while white people have chose to denigrate it on every occasion.

You won't be the first black person to do so. Maybe if Detroit weren't in such bad shape, Best Buy and Applebee's would do business there. It is not racism that keeps them away; it is crime.

How do you define "maintained"? The housing certainly hasn't been maintained. The businesses haven't been maintained. The government hasn't been maintained. But most importantly, the people haven't been maintained. Families haven't been maintained. Neighborhood communities haven't been maintained.

This has nothing to do with the racism of whites. This is a black problem, and it is up to blacks to fix it. It is not white people going into the city and lynching blacks. It is black people victimizing black people.

Yes, no race of people is perfect, but let's not pretend that black Detroiters do not have serious cultural/social problems that are very self-destructive. The problem is not how your black ancestors were treated by whites, it is how your black neighbors are being treated by blacks. And it is not about how whites are economically victimizing blacks; it's how blacks are economically victimizing each other.

Don't try and put the blame on me, stinkbug. I've been kind to every black person I've ever met. How many blacks could say the same thing?

[R8RBOB]

No, I think he's asking a question and I would like to know the answer also.

All the lovely neighborhoods I used to know in the city are ALL crap now. Why? Just because 'we white people' moved out? I don't buy it.

The "we white people" quote alone makes this thought so comical. You want to know why lovely neighborhoods you used to know are crap? It is because the people that are in those neighborhoods are not owners but renters.

[Maxine1958]

The "we white people" quote alone makes this thought so comical. You want to know why lovely neighborhoods you used to know are crap? It is because the people that are in those neighborhoods are not owners but renters.

That's not entirely true. That house/family I described in my earlier post bought that house for 'cash money'. No mortgage. I know because I knew the family that sold it to them. The man came to the real estate office with a paper bag and piled the fresh, crisp bundles on the desk. Now where do you suppose he got all that 'new' money from?

[R8RBOB]

You won't be the first black person to do so. Maybe if Detroit weren't in such bad shape, Best Buy and Applebee's would do business there. It is not racism that keeps them away; it is crime.

How do you define "maintained"? The housing certainly hasn't been maintained. The businesses haven't been maintained. The government hasn't been maintained. But most importantly, the people haven't been maintained. Families haven't been maintained. Neighborhood communities haven't been maintained.

This has nothing to do with the racism of whites. This is a black problem, and it is up to blacks to fix it. It is not white people going into the city and lynching blacks. It is black people victimizing black people.

Yes, no race of people is perfect, but let's not pretend that black Detroiters do not have serious cultural/social problems that are very self-destructive. The problem is not how your black ancestors were treated by whites, it is how your black neighbors are being treated by blacks. And it is not about how whites are economically victimizing blacks; it's how blacks are victimizing each other.

Don't try and put the blame on me, stinkbug. I've been kind to every black person I've ever met. How many blacks could say the same thing?

Laughing and thinking of Rodney King.....Can't we all get along.

Dude, if you are going to comment about Black Detroiters try to use the following adjectives: couple, some, few, most

Saying that Black Detroiters have serious cultural/social problems that are very self-destructive is kinda lumping all Blacks in Detroit in this category and I am sure you were not attempting to do that right?

[R8RBOB]

That's not entirely true. That house/family I described in my earlier post bought that house for 'cash money'. No mortgage. I know because I knew the family that sold it to them. The man came to the real estate office with a paper bag and piled the fresh, crisp bundles on the desk. Now where do you suppose he got all that 'new' money from?

Ever heard of flipping?

[Maxine1958]

Ever heard of flipping?

Yeah, but this was back in the late 70's/early 80's. Not so much of that going on back then. This guy drove a cab for a living, or so he said. The 10-12 'kids' who 'lived' there bragged about all the 'welfare babies' and how much money they got for each one.
My mother tried to hire one of the boys to shovel her snow and he told her he didn't need her charity and pulled $50 out of his pocket. WTH!

[Retroit]

Saying that Black Detroiters have serious cultural/social problems that are very self-destructive is kinda lumping all Blacks in Detroit in this category and I am sure you were not attempting to do that right?

Of course not. I just get so darn tired of having to use qualifiers for everything that I leave them off entirely. But, to avoid offending anyone, let me just say for the record that I consider ALL the black people on this forum to be good, intelligent, law-abiding people with whom I have NO problem associating with.

...well, maybe except blacksoulx.

[R8RBOB]

Yeah, but this was back in the late 70's/early 80's. Not so much of that going on back then. This guy drove a cab for a living, or so he said. The 10-12 'kids' who 'lived' there bragged about all the 'welfare babies' and how much money they got for each one.
My mother tried to hire one of the boys to shovel her snow and he told her he didn't need her charity and pulled $50 out of his pocket. WTH!

I know I am not that old, but I remember the 80's and I forgot what the word flipping was used for, but I should have said flipping houses when someone acquires a house [[either through an auction or private sale) for the purpose of selling it right away after fixing it up.

[urbanophile]

The population declines in Detroit have been been slowing for some time now. It doesn't seem realistic that Detroit will get down anywhere near 350K or other absurd figures. I'd guess somewhere between 750-850K.

[stinkbug]

You won't be the first black person to do so. Maybe if Detroit weren't in such bad shape, Best Buy and Applebee's would do business there. It is not racism that keeps them away; it is crime.

How do you define "maintained"? The housing certainly hasn't been maintained. The businesses haven't been maintained. The government hasn't been maintained. But most importantly, the people haven't been maintained. Families haven't been maintained. Neighborhood communities haven't been maintained.

This has nothing to do with the racism of whites. This is a black problem, and it is up to blacks to fix it. It is not white people going into the city and lynching blacks. It is black people victimizing black people.

Yes, no race of people is perfect, but let's not pretend that black Detroiters do not have serious cultural/social problems that are very self-destructive. The problem is not how your black ancestors were treated by whites, it is how your black neighbors are being treated by blacks. And it is not about how whites are economically victimizing blacks; it's how blacks are economically victimizing each other.

Don't try and put the blame on me, stinkbug. I've been kind to every black person I've ever met. How many blacks could say the same thing?

I'm not black. Nice job. Nothing else you've said is even remotely worth addressing past that point.

[croweblack]

They left because
1. Property values were declining or would soon decline because lower class blacks moved in
2. Crime and social disorder were increasing or would soon increase because lower class blacks moved in
3. The schools were crapifying or would soon crapify because lower class blacks started going to the schools
4. The neighborhood had changed, or would soon change, and was no longer "theirs" because lower class blacks moved in

crawford if you are honestly trying to say that white people left detroit because of another race of people I would love to know what that race was

did another type of person just suddenly appear and make everything so horrible that whites had to leave?

why are middle class blacks leaving now? Could it be because of lower class blacks messing everything up?

[Retroit]

I'm not black. Nice job. Nothing else you've said is even remotely worth addressing past that point.

It really doesn't matter what color we are; it's nothing personal. My only point is that Detroit's population will continue to decline because people [[black and white) don't want to live in a city with so many social problems. If you believe that Macomb Township is less desirable a place to live than Detroit, perhaps you need to educate yourself on the population trends. Obviously, the block clubs, family reunions and church have not compensated for the gangs, broken families, and godlessness.

[crawford]

did another type of person just suddenly appear and make everything so horrible that whites had to leave?

why are middle class blacks leaving now? Could it be because of lower class blacks messing everything up?

No, I agree with you [[I think). It is true that lower-class blacks were reponsible for most of the problems I stated. And yes, middle-class blacks don't want to live around ghetto trash either, which is why they are moving.

But my point is that it isn't simply race. It's class. Do you know how many blacks have moved to West Bloomfield in the last 5 years? I wouldn't be surprised if one or two elementary schools were close to 50% black. Yet West Bloomfield is not likely to see massive white flight or income flight, because the people moving in are middle-class or professional-class.

Relatively few people just run in panic because blacks are in their neighborhood or children's school. The issue is lower-class ghetto trash, which in the case of Detroit is usually black.

But not always. Southwest Detroit is [[generally speaking) a poor, junky and relatively high-crime neighborhood, yet there are relatively few blacks in most parts. Clearly the "white trash" and Mexicans are not regarded as super-desirable neighbors [[and before anyone accuses me of racism, my wife is Mexican, and I really have no problem with the area, outside of the pollution).

I have a friend who teaches in S.W. Detroit and she says 100% of her school students qualify for government lunch. Her school has basically no black children.

[MIRepublic]

crawford if you are honestly trying to say that white people left detroit because of another race of people I would love to know what that race was did another type of person just suddenly appear and make everything so horrible that whites had to leave?

I've never really understood how anyone could justify the original exodus. No one can "take over" your neighborhood until someone else first decides to leave. "They" "took over" because "you" willfully decided to leave other's behind; and, "you" left because "you" could no longer fully and legally rig the game in your favor.

The original/first wave exodus was very much due to race and not wanting to share; I don't see how anyone could seriously and honestly argue, otherwise.

BTW, I'm surprised no one made note of my math showing that even if the loss were to double every decade from the 90's, Detroit will still make it out to about 810,000 for the end of this decade, and it's clear that while the loss has accelerated, it most certainly didn't double over the percentage loss of the 90's.

[crawford]

The original/first wave exodus was very much due to race and not wanting to share; I don't see how anyone could seriously and honestly argue, otherwise.

And I don't know how you could claim it was due to race. I actually know some fairly racist people [[well into their 9th decade on earth) through cultural connections [[people from my country), and even they didn't really leave their 7 Mile/Gratiot because of "the blacks"; in fact I have heard them praise the "first wave" of what they call "colored" neighbors.

The problem was that every empty house kept getting filled by black newcomers, and at some point, "good" families were bringing in the ghetto cousin, the thug boyfriend, the trashy aunt, etc., and then things started disappearing from yards, teenage girls were harrassed on the street. etc.

At that point, the whites all pretty much left within about 5 years or so [[this was early 1980's).

Also, most of these working class folks were not new to the phenomenon. This same couple lived further south on Gratiot and had left in the late 1960's when the exact same phenomenon occured. They knew the writing on the wall the second time around.