Falling Transit Ridership

[ABetterDetroit]

Our problem is that Detroit is hyper-dependent, like no other metro in the USA, on the car. LA, Dallas/FW, Phoenix, Houston, Miami, DC/Baltimore, Atlanta; these sprawling metroplexes still have regional transit and are still investing in transit.

Which one of those "investing in transit" cities is 100% dependent on a property tax for funding for the transit?

What is so hard not to get for the transit supporters on why we have not succeeded?

1/3 wants transit no matter who or how it is paid for. Another 1/3 will never support a tax increase ever. The last 1/3 IS where the battle is won or lost.

Transit in metro Detroit has lost the middle third repeatedly over and over for decades because the vehicle for the tax is a terrible economically destructive tax hike in a region that can't even remotely compete against 40 other states because the property taxes are already way to F#&%ing high!

Do you guys that are all in on transit even listen to the middle third and why they wont vote for a property tax increase for transit? We are all not evil right wingers I assure you, just people in the middle trying to sort out the ever growing mountains of BS slung at us from the far right and far left.

If one more person says to me "I'm not voting for a millage increase but I would vote for a one cent sales tax increase for transit... why won't they do it that way?" I should send them all to you dtowncitylover so you can tell them that it is better to depreciate the value of their home by raising the payment. Don't forget to explain to them the part how much you like having landlords raising rent to collect tax and how efficient that is to the price of rent.

If liberals refuse to protect people from predatory landlords who the hell will?

http://www.cfte.org/elections

[dtowncitylover]

If one more person says to me "I'm not voting for a millage increase but I would vote for a one cent sales tax increase for transit... why won't they do it that way?" I should send them all to you dtowncitylover so you can tell them that it is better to depreciate the value of their home by raising the payment. Don't forget to explain to them the part how much you like having landlords raising rent to collect tax and how efficient that is to the price of rent. ]

Yes, because the state constitution doesn't allow for local sales tax. I would also prefer a sales tax except our Republican house and Senate has no will to change the constitution to make that. Maybe if these so called 1/3 would like to team up with the 1/3 pro transit and demand local sales taxes but in my experience the 1/3 indifferent are politically apathetic and really don't care about transit too much.

So we're left with property taxes. But it's a well known fact that property values rise when close to transit, especially major connection points and busy stations.

What happened in 16 was a terrible Yes campaign based on emotion and not fact. There was no education of what transit does for a region and how it impacts us economically. Instead we heard soon stories about poor and elderly, which while true, does win people over.

[ABetterDetroit]

Yes, because the state constitution doesn't allow for local sales tax. I would also prefer a sales tax except our Republican house and Senate has no will to change the constitution to make that. Maybe if these so called 1/3 would like to team up with the 1/3 pro transit and demand local sales taxes but in my experience the 1/3 indifferent are politically apathetic and really don't care about transit too much.

So we're left with property taxes. But it's a well known fact that property values rise when close to transit, especially major connection points and busy stations.

What happened in 16 was a terrible Yes campaign based on emotion and not fact. There was no education of what transit does for a region and how it impacts us economically. Instead we heard soon stories about poor and elderly, which while true, does win people over.

Get the signatures and put it on the ballet. Bypass Lansing.

For the whole state.

Proposal A:
Change the Michigan state constitution to allow up to a 1% sales tax increase to be charged in a multi county agreement where the public transportation systems are combined into a single RTA [[Regional Transport Authority) and the entire 1% collected sales tax would be dedicated to the RTA in the proposed district.

Circle YES or NO [[only one may be circled)

For Oakland, Macomb, Washtenaw, and Wayne counties only.

Proposal B:
Establish a 1% sales tax increase with all proceeds going to the RTA in Oakland, Macomb, Washtenaw, and Wayne counties.

Circle YES or NO. [[Only one may be circled)

Get the signatures and funding for the campaign for the commercials and you have a better chance than you ever had with jacking the property tax. I would get involved to help get it done. But under no circumstances will I vote to raise the millage in Detroit even higher and have more people thrown out of their homes on my hands or for evictions on unpaid rent because of the same reason. Taxing rent the way we do is a proven failure. We destroy people, property and future investment in the process.

https://ballotpedia.org/Amending_state_constitutions

[Bham1982]

Sales taxes are regressive, but I would agree its a better option than property tax. Property taxes are already insanely high and sales taxes are pretty low.

Suburban homeowners, even progressives, are uneasy about all the avalanche of one-off "regional" adds to their property taxes. The zoo, art museum, Metroparks, etc. Then practically every suburban school district has declining enrollment and aging buildings, requiring more per-household funding.

Metros with regional transit taxes almost always use sales taxes or income taxes, and they typically weight according to perceived benefit. For example, the transit employer tax add-on in NYC is higher in the city than in inner suburbs, and higher in inner suburbs than outer suburbs [[i.e. according to relative benefit).

[Bham1982]

People don't take uber to work every day. Uber is replacing traditional taxis, not meat and potatoes public transit.

In Michigan, yeah, people aren't taking Uber to work. But I know folks who take Uber [[or taxis, or other rideshares) to work every single day in NYC. It isn't that rare. Uber and competitors also run transit vans and other larger-scale rideshares.

[wolverine]

Ridershare is definitely impacting this. Possibly also bikesharing. Almost 4 million rides annually in Chicago on Divvy bikes. That’s a lot.

I regularly take the L to commute but the red and brown lines are too crowded these days so I avoid the train and bike if I can.

But where rideshare hurts transit is the later hours or places without rail where people don’t want to wait for the bus at night. It’s seems commuting ridership in Chicago is way up, but non-peak hours are down.

[Atticus]

Talking about Detroit and SE Michigan, what train transit realistically makes sense to start with? I am curious what others think. If you could build one rail line for rail transit, what would it be?

If I could choose one line, it would be a rail connection from DTW to Downtown. Throw in some stops at Dearborn and near the Henry Ford museum, and I think the region would be off to a good start.

If we are serious about having transit, and showing it off to attract others to the region, this airport connection line would be the way to do it. DTW is the entrance to the region for many. What better way to welcome them than with a functional transit system.

[Scottathew]

Driving is objectively much faster than taking the bus. I have no idea how a bus gets from Rochester to Downtown in 15 minutes.

The bus takes about 55 minutes to get from Troy to Detroit.

The bus doesn't go to Rochester Hills, so first I drive to Troy, then I get on the bus.

Now, instead of driving for 60 minutes, I drive for 15 minutes and bus for 55 minutes.

So my useless time per day goes from 120 minutes, down to 30 minutes if I ride the bus.

The time spent on the bus isn't a total waste because I relax, do school work, and watch Netflix.

It takes longer to get from point A to point B, but I'm able to do stuff while getting there. If I were only driving a car I cannot.

My brain compensates for movement, which makes lurching not an issue for me. Although I'd imagine if someone were prone to motion sickness it may be an issue for them.

[stasu1213]

Detroit neighborhoods had been altered from once walkable communities to gutted out car dependent hoods. This forced residents to get into their cars to travel to other communities to do their shopping. This was done by design through elected officials but entities who want Detroiters to become car dependent only but using resources supplied by them to operate the car; Gas, insurance, registration, parking, maintenance especially after hitting potholes holes, etc. Plus, Detroiters had been supplementing the suburbs for more than 40 years through being forced to shop ar the malls outside of the city

[Hermod]

Detroit neighborhoods had been altered from once walkable communities to gutted out car dependent hoods. This forced residents to get into their cars to travel to other communities to do their shopping. This was done by design through elected officials but entities who want Detroiters to become car dependent only but using resources supplied by them to operate the car; Gas, insurance, registration, parking, maintenance especially after hitting potholes holes, etc. Plus, Detroiters had been supplementing the suburbs for more than 40 years through being forced to shop ar the malls outside of the city

Because an excess of five finger discounts made it uneconomical to keep open the stores in their walkable neighborhoods. In 1961, my newly wed bride and I lived just off Schoenherr between 7 and 8 Mile. On Friday evening, we could walk down to 7 Mile and Gratiot and stroll through a wide range of stores. Any one want to stroll around in that area now?

[emu steve]

One of the problem with buses: reliability.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.d3f6821f4fec

[pjbear05]

@ Hermod the abortion called The Wave, lol I hear ya!

[djtomt]

EVERY transit system loses money. Even the best ones. All of them LOSE money, government funded or not.

However, mass transit is a part of the public good. If transit had been adequately funded in this region, who knows, our roads may not be as bad as they are now due to less stress on them, and we may be way further ahead economically. Alas, we will never know. Spilled milk.

Real talk, transit will NEVER fly around here until the roads are fixed. Period. The Q line is useless. SMART is as useless as DDOT & the Q Line combined, and both of those are no great shakes. If I'm wrong, please revisit the story from last year about the guy that walked 20 miles to work.

No taxpayer in this Metro region will subsidize transit when the roads outside their house are worse than 3rd World, and damn near, if not, WARZONE status.

If you want to live here, get a car with good shocks, and have a mechanic on call. That's the real. It's unfortunate, but that's the real.

[wolverine]

The reason transit flops in so many cities under 1 million in pop is because the projects aren’t ambitious enough. They have to be colossal, fast and frequent to get people out of their cars.

The Q-line gets one idea right in that there should be a transit spine along a corridor accommodating high density development. But it is not fast and it is not grade separated.

And I agree with the comment above that no one should be under the expectation that transit should pay for itself. It doesn’t, just like roads don’t. But I’m not opposed to making all freeways tollways or instead of that, doubling gas taxes. Oh wait...that’s pretty much like where I live now and most folks who don’t like the expense of gas and tollways opt for the train

Just imagine how the expense of travel would spatially impact cities.

[emu steve]

The reason transit flops in so many cities under 1 million in pop is because the projects aren’t ambitious enough. They have to be colossal, fast and frequent to get people out of their cars.

The Q-line gets one idea right in that there should be a transit spine along a corridor accommodating high density development. But it is not fast and it is not grade separated.

I agree with the comments but would add.

A near requirement is that there is a very large employment center in the city, presumably downtown. Smaller cities won't have this.

As for Detroit over the years: Wasn't a lot of Detroit's employment spatially spread out over Detroit AND the region in automobile factories?

Didn't the Ford Rouge plant once have 30K workers?

We use a model like NYC where there are tremendous amount of employment, etc. condensed in a defined area [[Manhattan).

Not sure other than downtown that the model fits Detroit and I'm not sure that Downtown Detroit has enough employment, etc. to support say a light/heavy rail system. Rail systems require big numbers of riders to make sense.

[Scottathew]

EVERY transit system loses money. Even the best ones. All of them LOSE money, government funded or not.

One of the biggest transit systems that loses money is the road network. All those free-loading car drivers!

[masterblaster]

I agree with the comments but would add.

A near requirement is that there is a very large employment center in the city, presumably downtown. Smaller cities won't have this.

As for Detroit over the years: Wasn't a lot of Detroit's employment spatially spread out over Detroit AND the region in automobile factories?

Didn't the Ford Rouge plant once have 30K workers?

We use a model like NYC where there are tremendous amount of employment, etc. condensed in a defined area [[Manhattan).

Not sure other than downtown that the model fits Detroit and I'm not sure that Downtown Detroit has enough employment, etc. to support say a light/heavy rail system. Rail systems require big numbers of riders to make sense.

In my humble opinion, downtown + midtown + New Center is a large enough employment center and the number of employees and attractions/amenities in that core area are increasing

[masterblaster]

Get the signatures and put it on the ballet. Bypass Lansing.

For the whole state.

Proposal A:
Change the Michigan state constitution to allow up to a 1% sales tax increase to be charged in a multi county agreement where the public transportation systems are combined into a single RTA [[Regional Transport Authority) and the entire 1% collected sales tax would be dedicated to the RTA in the proposed district.

Circle YES or NO [[only one may be circled)

For Oakland, Macomb, Washtenaw, and Wayne counties only.

Proposal B:
Establish a 1% sales tax increase with all proceeds going to the RTA in Oakland, Macomb, Washtenaw, and Wayne counties.

Circle YES or NO. [[Only one may be circled)

Get the signatures and funding for the campaign for the commercials and you have a better chance than you ever had with jacking the property tax. I would get involved to help get it done. But under no circumstances will I vote to raise the millage in Detroit even higher and have more people thrown out of their homes on my hands or for evictions on unpaid rent because of the same reason. Taxing rent the way we do is a proven failure. We destroy people, property and future investment in the process.

https://ballotpedia.org/Amending_state_constitutions

Let's get this started. Who's with me? Also, we can consolidate DDOT, SMART, and the People Mover into one entity

[Lowell]

You make an excellent point about reclaiming time. What one can do with hands and body freed from driving is significant.

Add to that is a priceless advantage: the removal of the stress of driving.

Time spent driving is very low quality. The most I can do is listen to a podcast or music while not hitting things with my car.

Time on the bus on the other hand is of a much higher quality. While on the bus I do homework for my masters degree, watch Netflix, respond to emails, sleep, etc...

Driving downtown:
120 minutes of low-quality time per day.

Busing downtown:
30 minutes of low quality time per day

[Bham1982]

You make an excellent point about reclaiming time. What one can do with hands and body freed from driving is significant.

Add to that is a priceless advantage: the removal of the stress of driving.

I don't think I've ever remotely experienced "stress" while driving in Michigan. In Colombia, Mexico and Italy, yeah.

Giant, idiot-proof highways, cruise control, barely any traffic and courteous drivers do not make for extreme stress. Bogota has stressful driving. If driving is, for whatever reason, too difficult, carpooling is an option.

[masterblaster]

Talking about Detroit and SE Michigan, what train transit realistically makes sense to start with? I am curious what others think. If you could build one rail line for rail transit, what would it be?

If I could choose one line, it would be a rail connection from DTW to Downtown. Throw in some stops at Dearborn and near the Henry Ford museum, and I think the region would be off to a good start.

If we are serious about having transit, and showing it off to attract others to the region, this airport connection line would be the way to do it. DTW is the entrance to the region for many. What better way to welcome them than with a functional transit system.

1) Rail line from New Center to DTW. All rail. Instead of a bus down Merriman to get from the east-west rail line to the airport, I would try to determine the availability of the right-of-way of this north-south running rail line that runs just west of the airport

2) Due to the increasing popularity of the southeast Oakland County suburbs [[Royal Oak, Ferndale, Clawson, Berkley, Pleasant Ridge, Huntington Woods and Hazel Park) - Build the subway/HRT line that Coleman Young proposed after Pres. Gerald Ford promised $600 million for a rapid transit system in the Detroit Area in 1976 - a heavy rail line on Woodward from downtown to downtown Royal Oak. He proposed that, from downtown to 6 Mile [[McNichols), the rail line would be a SUBWAY. North of 6 Mile, the train would run in the median of Woodward all the way to Ten Mile [[I-696) where it would turn and run down Main Street to downtown Royal Oak.

The subway portion would cost 1 billion dollars. From 6 Mile to Royal Oak, a distance of about 6 miles, using the per mile price for LRT from the last estimate of the DDOT Woodward LRT study from 2011 [[9 miles/$500 million, so $60 million per mile), total cost would be $1.36 BILLION)

[masterblaster]

I don't think I've ever remotely experienced "stress" while driving in Michigan. In Colombia, Mexico and Italy, yeah.

Giant, idiot-proof highways, cruise control, barely any traffic and courteous drivers do not make for extreme stress. Bogota has stressful driving. If driving is, for whatever reason, too difficult, carpooling is an option.

Are you some kind of show-off? Why would you expect people to know about the traffic conditions of a city in Colombia?

There is rush-hour, bumper-to-bumper traffic on I-94, I-696, M-39, M-10, and, I-275.

[Bham1982]

Are you some kind of show-off? Why would you expect people to know about the traffic conditions of a city in Colombia?

There is rush-hour, bumper-to-bumper traffic on I-94, I-696, M-39, M-10, and, I-275.

If there's a metro of 5 million anywhere in the planet with less stressful driving, I'd like to see it.

Putting aside the fact we're very close to driverless cars, and modern-day driving is pretty idiot-proof, Detroit traffic is nothing.

[emu steve]

In my humble opinion, downtown + midtown + New Center is a large enough employment center and the number of employees and attractions/amenities in that core area are increasing

Enough to support light or heavy rail?

[dtowncitylover]

If there's a metro of 5 million anywhere in the planet with less stressful driving, I'd like to see it.

Putting aside the fact we're very close to driverless cars, and modern-day driving is pretty idiot-proof, Detroit traffic is nothing.

You really don't understand what stress is do you? It's not always about sitting in traffic. It's also having a long commute in our sprawling region. It's about having to drive everywhere. The stress we put on our cars because we're addicted to them and know no other paradigm.

I don't understand why people think having a car is independence when it means being chained to insurance, registration every year, car payments for 36 months, then 5 years after those end, you get a new one, new tires, countless oil changes, the risk of getting into a car accident, getting new tires, getting any new part for whatever reason.

How are driverless cars supposed to fix anything? People Mover is driverless, sure didn't fix our transit system.