Warren Attempting to Create Walkable Downtown

[Bham1982]

So then maybe the parking lots and decks around the new development aren't such a horrible idea, so GM workers can drive to grab a quick lunch or dinner there?

If a development doesn't have a walkability score of 100 and replicate the city center of Paris, France, this forum gets triggered into oblivion.

GM Tech is a super-sprawly suburban development set far back from Van Dyke [[which itself is very wide). The idea that someone is gonna fund a half-mile-long skywalk, and that workers would use it to connect from parking lot to parking lot, is pretty silly stuff.

Warren isn't built for walkable urbanism, and the only way you would "fix it" is to start over [[and that isn't happening).

[hybridy]

So then maybe the parking lots and decks around the new development aren't such a horrible idea, so GM workers can drive to grab a quick lunch or dinner there?

If a development doesn't have a walkability score of 100 and replicate the city center of Paris, France, this forum gets triggered into oblivion.

there's no appetite for parking decks east of van dyke...it will only be surface lots
http://www.macombdaily.com/article/M...NEWS/160509798

[Danny]

Good luck with that. That area have been developed
since the late 2000s.

[ASilvaman]

Let's just all agree that this is an epic waste of tax payer money that's basically gonna fail to accomplish anything other than allowing something pretty for gm tech people to look out the window at during the day. A few restaurants that will only be frequented by gm people. It's not a downtown, it's a sad strip with no character, completely inauthentic and destined to do none of what's is intended.
You guys can start screaming about wasted taxpayer money as you typically do.

[Jason]

The amount of land there is enough to make a district which has various government functions, recreational functions, events, and shopping, which can collectively have the functions of a downtown or a civic center. Within the district, there can be a good pedestrian experience. For comparison, this development area is bigger than downtown Ferndale.

The amount of land is not big enough to urbanize Warren. But speaking in defense of the area, immediately to the east is some multifamily housing which is probably denser than it seems. There's some open land, and also this development, which increases the potential density. I also think that families are an important part of real urbanism, and this development has potential for, for example, kids to safely bicycle to hang out or go to an event or the library or something.


However the actual design we're seeing here is the worst of both worlds. The retail is two strip malls, dressed up as ye olde towns, with ground floors that are useless for anything other than fast food, and upper floors that are poorly suited for either office or residential. Pedestrians originate through cars [[parking lots), and this arrangement doesn't route or focus pedestrians through the park area. However, retail benefits from being visible to the street [[people), and most of the retail here is tucked away.

There's a hotel and apartments on Civic Center Boulevard. The building mass here seems to be attempting to enclose an urban street, but that's not important for that particular part of the development, because there's no reason for pedestrians to exist there. Also, the residential and hotel will both be overlooking parking lots/car dealerships, and getting traffic noise from Van Dyke, making that spot undesirable for those uses.

Like it's been said, the GM campus is big, so the bridge isn't really connecting the campus to the development. But it does make it easier for people in the building right by the bridge to get across the street, and it is a big building. It would also serve as a landmark, which would aide in placemaking. Depending on the cost of the bridge, it could be worthwhile.

[mikeg19]

Every city that attempts to do this fails. You can't "create" a downtown out of thin air. Every one that has been built feels fake as all hell. See: "Downtown" Shelby twp; "Downtown" Shelby Twp part 2; "Downtown" Troy. Sterile, crap designed, fake streetwall garbage. When it doesn't happen organically, it looks like shit. And that's exactly what this will be...Shit.

[Scottathew]

Every city that attempts to do this fails. You can't "create" a downtown out of thin air. Every one that has been built feels fake as all hell. See: "Downtown" Shelby twp; "Downtown" Shelby Twp part 2; "Downtown" Troy. Sterile, crap designed, fake streetwall garbage. When it doesn't happen organically, it looks like shit. And that's exactly what this will be...Shit.

I tend to agree with this thinking. Downtown's develop on major roads that have a lot of traffic, but are not overly-wide. They do not develop adjacent to major roads.

I'm glad to see development on this site, but creating a fake downtown shouldn't be a goal. I would instead prefer a mixed-use walkable neighborhood with a good density to support retail and restaurants.

[EastsideAl]

This is all pretty funny, since the original point of early sprawl-burbs like Warren is that they would not have a walkable downtown, or walkable anything else. In the shiny new postwar world that created most of Warren every semi-decent family was supposed to have a neat little box with a driveway, was now going to be able to drive everywhere, would never have to take public transit again, and would never have to walk any further than from the parking lot to the store and from the driveway to their kitchen.

[O3H]

In 2018 - Warren still has dirt roads and neighborhoods without sidewalks

The old farm house properties are now up-for-sale and the "zoning" folks seem to have forgotten about pedestrians, strollers, wheelchairs, cyclists, etc. who "may" want to get to a park [[Halmich) - without getting in a car.
Oh my God - a SIDEWALK - connected to a Bridge - to a neighborhood ????
That involves an easement by the road, concrete, planning, etc., etc.

Example - 31965 Ryan Road , south of 14 Mile - https://goo.gl/maps/1WcDMFqWefr
https://goo.gl/maps/BNGGY4ggH5s

Those GM folks need to walk more - BUT the residents who pay taxes -
forget about them, they can slog in the mud, etc. without sidewalks.
Drive to Halmich park, we are a CAR city, support the UAW, car corp.

[Gistok]

OH3.... no sidewalks on both sides of the road? Very common even in heavily built up areas. You have Lakeshore Dr. in Grosse Pte. Farms and Shores with only a sidewalk on one side. Ditto for Large stretches of Jefferson in St. Clair Shores.

Even nice stretches of very expensive homes have no sidewalks on BOTH sides... such as Moravian Rd. or Millar Rd. in Clinton Twp.....

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5747...7i13312!8i6656

Sidewalks are far from universal in many areas.

[Hypestyles]

have some very nice public park space accessible to everyone.

[SyGolden48236]

have some very nice public park space accessible to everyone.

The very nature of a public park is that it is accessible to everyone.

All public parks are available to everyone. http://www.dictionary.com/browse/public?s=ts

[canuck]

In 2018 - Warren still has dirt roads and neighborhoods without sidewalks

The old farm house properties are now up-for-sale and the "zoning" folks seem to have forgotten about pedestrians, strollers, wheelchairs, cyclists, etc. who "may" want to get to a park [[Halmich) - without getting in a car.
Oh my God - a SIDEWALK - connected to a Bridge - to a neighborhood ????
That involves an easement by the road, concrete, planning, etc., etc.

Example - 31965 Ryan Road , south of 14 Mile - https://goo.gl/maps/1WcDMFqWefr
https://goo.gl/maps/BNGGY4ggH5s

Those GM folks need to walk more - BUT the residents who pay taxes -
forget about them, they can slog in the mud, etc. without sidewalks.
Drive to Halmich park, we are a CAR city, support the UAW, car corp.

I see sprawlsville alright, but to be fair I also notice an offset sidewalk on both sides of Ryan Road from your bird's eye view [[second link).

[EastsideAl]

The very nature of a public park is that it is accessible to everyone.

All public parks are available to everyone. http://www.dictionary.com/browse/public?s=ts

So I can come and use Windmill Pointe Park now? Great. Thanks for letting me know. I'll be right over.

[SyGolden48236]

So I can come and use Windmill Pointe Park now? Great. Thanks for letting me know. I'll be right over.

No,Windmill Pointe Park is not a public park. Is is and has always been a private park open only to residents of Grosse Pointe Park and their guests.

It is 100% funded by tax money paid by property owners in the city of Grosse Pointe Park. No county, state, or federal money is used to fund the park. But you already knew that .

[Scottathew]

No,Windmill Pointe Park is not a public park. Is is and has always been a private park open only to residents of Grosse Pointe Park and their guests.

It is 100% funded by tax money paid by property owners in the city of Grosse Pointe Park. No county, state, or federal money is used to fund the park. But you already knew that .

Yeah... let's pretend that's the reason...

[Bham1982]

No,Windmill Pointe Park is not a public park. Is is and has always been a private park open only to residents of Grosse Pointe Park and their guests.

It is 100% funded by tax money paid by property owners in the city of Grosse Pointe Park. No county, state, or federal money is used to fund the park. But you already knew that .

A city park, by definition, is a public park.

And the restrictions on non-residents have nothing to do with funding sources, and everything to do with keeping dark-hued folks out of the "civilized" WASP parks.

[Warrenite84]

I don't see a problem with Warren trying to add a little more urban experience to their suburban portfolio. They could have food trucks along the park with several pergola topped picnic tables or several carry out options nearby.

Indeed there is a long list of failed spaces and places where this has been attempted. IMHO, for many the mix wasn't quite right to be conducive to public acceptance and use as intended.

Ferndale, Royal Oak, Birmingham, and Downtown Rochester are always evolving with tenants moving in and out changing the personality of the places they inhabit.

Secure. Safe. Dense. Walkable, with lots of options to window shop, linger, and hang out. Not formulaic or Disneyesque. Mid to high quality restaurants that would draw people from nearby cities would definitely help. Cheesecake Factory! Certainly businesses that have high quality storefronts and interior build outs would help.

Anyways, I hope they succeed and it turns great. It beats naysaying them for even trying without helpful suggestions. What ideas do you have that you think would make it a success?

[Bham1982]

Ferndale, Royal Oak, Birmingham, and Downtown Rochester are always evolving with tenants moving in and out changing the personality of the places they inhabit.

But these places have actual downtowns, rooted in 19th and early 20th century streetscapes. This Warren project is an attempt to impose a fake downtown upon a sprawl landscape.

[SyGolden48236]

A city park, by definition, is a public park.
And the restrictions on non-residents have nothing to do with funding sources, and everything to do with keeping dark-hued folks out of the "civilized" WASP parks.

No, a city park is not necessarily by definition a public park. It can, and sometimes does in the real world, refer to a park that is wholly owned, funded, and available only to residents of a particular city.

The residents only restrictions have nothing to do with keeping out "dark-hued folks". If you were able to visit our parks, and thankfully you are not, you would notice many of your so-called "dark-hued folks" enjoying the fantastic amenities offered at our parks.

Those "dark-hued folks" as you so in-eloquently put it are residents of the Pointe, or guests of residents. We have many non-white neighbors, and they are fantastic neighbors at that.

Our parks are simply too small to accommodate the influx of non-residents that would overrun them if they were open to people outside the community. They are even overcrowded with actual residents on the busiest days.

But don't let actual facts get in the way of another of your tired old tantrums. While it shows complete intellectual bankruptcy, it is much more fun to ascribe anything with which you do not agree or that does not go your way to racism, no?

[Bham1982]

The residents only restrictions have nothing to do with keeping out "dark-hued folks".

Uh-huh. The only cities with such restrictions in all of Michigan happen to be the WASPiest cities with an epic history of racial discrimination and just happen to be located right next to 100% black Detroit neighborhoods. It's just a crazy coincidence that the Pointes have such rules...

If you were able to visit our parks, and thankfully you are not, you would notice many of your so-called "dark-hued folks" enjoying the fantastic amenities offered at our parks.

I've been to parks in the Pointes, and they actually aren't particularly nice. We have much nicer parks in Birmingham, with hills, streams and amazing playscapes for kids, and they're open to anyone.

Our parks are simply too small to accommodate the influx of non-residents that would overrun them if they were open to people outside the community. They are even overcrowded with actual residents on the busiest days.

Yes, I'm sure that the flat, featureless grass landscapes of the Pointes would have 10x the crowding of Central Park, no doubt, if they had the indignity of operating like every other park on earth. The Pointes are just such a hot destination for outsiders and grass is such a scarce commodity in Michigan...

[Warrenite84]

Bham1982,
I agree it is not the best but Mound today is a junior freeway. I don't see anyone who uses Mound in their job commute opting for Mound to be put on a road diet to facilitate a mini downtown. Along Van Dyke near City hall seems the best possible option as things are today. If I had my wish, I'd prefer Warren to have a downtown similar to Romeo. You have to work with what you've got.

[bust]

Uh-huh. The only cities with such restrictions in all of Michigan happen to be the WASPiest cities with an epic history of racial discrimination and just happen to be located right next to 100% black Detroit neighborhoods. It's just a crazy coincidence that the Pointes have such rules...

I've been to parks in the Pointes, and they actually aren't particularly nice. We have much nicer parks in Birmingham, with hills, streams and amazing playscapes for kids, and they're open to anyone.

Yes, I'm sure that the flat, featureless grass landscapes of the Pointes would have 10x the crowding of Central Park, no doubt, if they had the indignity of operating like every other park on earth. The Pointes are just such a hot destination for outsiders and grass is such a scarce commodity in Michigan...

The streams and gentle slopes of Birmingham's parks are nice. I do not intend to dis them. But I question what parks you've visited in Grosse Pointe. You must not have been to the best ones, as you're clearly unaware of their amenities. Grosse Pointe Woods' Lakefront Park has some that don't exist in any parks in Birmingham, Northville, or Bloomfield Hills, nor even San Francisco, LA, or New York. Of course you can likewise find amenities in parks those places that don't exist in Grosse Pointe. But the fact is some of Grosse Pointe's parks are world class.

As is often the case, your characterization is off base. And as is even more often the case, it's bizarrely insolent, especially for someone who professes from a perspective of at least partial ignorance. Even when I agree with you I often wish you'd check your arrogance and pugnacious attitude before posting. It's the opposite of persuasive to tick people off.

Regarding the far more interesting question whether it is racist for the Grosse Pointe municipalities to limit access to their parks to residents, I've thought a lot about that. But the thread has already gone far off topic. Perhaps if I can find one that's more appropriate.

[bust]

Back on topic, I'm underwhelmed by the proposal, but I'm encouraged Warren is at least recognizing the benefit of a walkable downtown. Yeah, until now city planning there has pretty much been the antithesis of that.

Heh, there's a movie theater back here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5023...7i13312!8i6656

Although if unwalkability were a competition, this one, in nearby Sterling Heights might take the cake:

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5544...7i13312!8i6656

[Scottathew]

Heh, there's a movie theater back here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5023...7i13312!8i6656

That's the old Universal Mall site. They've actually done OK with remaking it into a retail plaza. I believe the theater was once part of the mall. It used to be a super-cheap theater, but now MJR bought it and they've put money into it.

MJR theaters are pretty decent.