English is now the offical language of Michigan....

[jcole]

Oh, dear. The irony is thick here.

The irony is not all that's thick...

[Richard]

You would be very well served by eliminating all your current "news" sources. You've been conned.

For the millionth time, there is no issue. It's made-up. English is dominant, immigrants learn English, and there is no need for legislation targeting immigrants and educated people, to appease fearful and ignorant nativists.

That is the difference between you and me,you need links and some media outlet you control your thinking for you,I prefer to base most of my comments on real life expirences and living in the real world.

We live in a time where everybody is offended by everything,if they are not offended by something they will think of a reason to be,then they will think of a name to call all the ones that do not agree with them.

Common sense dictates that English would be the common language in America just as every other country has their common language.

Unfortantaly you cannot buy common sense with an education,and eventually you are going to have somebody offended because their native language is not included in state paperwork and a bored lawyer filing a lawsuit.

So it needs to be spelled out for the easily confused,it does not target anybody,it is not anti immigration,the educated ones that you are referring to were educated in a country that holds little relevance here.

A Doctor that received their credentials in a foreign country will have to be certified in this country before allowing to practice,which the process is in English.

By that logic when Walt Disney world replaced their IT people with people from India they would then have to teach thousands of employees that language in order to communicate.

Then the hundreds of thousands of visitors would need to be able to communicate in that language also in order to enjoy the park.

I have yet to meet an educated professional immigrant that was not bilingual so the argument that it drives them away is a false flag.

But that is not the case because it is clear,it is in black and White spelled out for you,in America the common language is English and you have two choices,either you learn it,as it is required by immigration,or you do not.

If you move to a city or find employment and decide to sue that employer because they speak English and you do not then there is no question about where it will end up.

Maybe instead of calling everybody racist and anti immigration you might want to look at the reason why all of the sudden states,employers etc. are going into cya mode of being proactive and nipping things in the bud before they come up.

You will find your answer in the mirror.

[Canadian Visitor]

By that logic when Walt Disney world replaced their IT people with people from India they would then have to teach thousands of employees that language in order to communicate.

This quote personifies why people don't take you seriously.

LOL

English IS an official language of India!

[Wesley Mouch]

...If you go to, say Germany, all transit has English announcements too [[and many have French or Dutch), govt. websites all have English translations, ...

I have just been dealing with the German Tax department, and they only communicate in German -- although they kindly write in English that German is the official language of the tax office, and all correspondence must be in German.

Their website for overseas pensioners does have an English page that says "Shortly information will be available in your language".

If you want information, you'd better read German.

So the German tax office at least is officially German. And they are trying to be kind and provide some services in other languages. Good for them. They see the value in the clarity of an official language, but do their best to work with others.

[Richard]

This quote personifies why people don't take you seriously.

LOL

English IS an official language of India!

You posted that without even doing a little research,but yet were quick to chastise.

The Constitution of India designates the official language of the Government of India as Hindi written in the Devanagariscript, as well as English.^[2] There is no national language as declared by the Constitution of India.^[3]Hindi and English are used for official purposes such as parliamentary proceedings, judiciary, communications between the Central Government and a State Government.^[2] States within India have the liberty and powers to specify their own official language[[s) through legislation and therefore there are 22 officially recognized languages in India of which Hindi is the most used.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_with_official_status_in_India

Kinda like here,press one for English press two for Spanish.

If Hindi is most used would that be considered a common language?

What is the official languages in Canada,Canadian visitor?

Did you complain when your own country made English an official language ? Or are you just racist against Americans and their country?

https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...elds/2098.html

Seems though many countries have an official language also,I guess they are racist and anti immigration.

[Wesley Mouch]

Because it's clearly intended to tell immigrants and educated people that they aren't wanted in Michigan, and that linguistic diversity is viewed as a threat rather than an asset.
...And that isn't the intent. We all know the intent.

Intent. Consider judging not on intent, but on action.

Using intent to judge laws is a bigoted as prohibitions on hate crime.

[Bham1982]

I have just been dealing with the German Tax department, and they only communicate in German -- although they kindly write in English that German is the official language of the tax office, and all correspondence must be in German.

Why would you expect a German federal agency to conduct official business in any language of your choosing? Seems like an odd and irrelevant point. Of course formal communications will be in German, especially communications for pensioners, who are, of course, German.

But in contrast to the U.S., German agencies do have foreign language webpages, employees have extremely high foreign language competency, and it's hardly controversial. It's smart business.

So the German tax office at least is officially German. And they are trying to be kind and provide some services in other languages. Good for them. They see the value in the clarity of an official language, but do their best to work with others.

Exactly. Germany recognizes the value, and does not fear, language diversity. Hopefully the U.S. will eventually progress to that point.

[Bham1982]

Intent. Consider judging not on intent, but on action.

Using intent to judge laws is a bigoted as prohibitions on hate crime.

There is nothing to this law but intent.

What else should be considered, when we have a law with no discernable purpose but to demonize foreigners, immigrants and educated people?

[Canadian Visitor]

You posted that without even doing a little research,but yet were quick to chastise.

The Constitution of India designates the official language of the Government of India as Hindi written in the Devanagariscript, as well as English.^[2] There is no national language as declared by the Constitution of India.^[3]Hindi and English are used for official purposes such as parliamentary proceedings, judiciary, communications between the Central Government and a State Government.^[2] States within India have the liberty and powers to specify their own official language[[s) through legislation and therefore there are 22 officially recognized languages in India of which Hindi is the most used.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_with_official_status_in_India

Kinda like here,press one for English press two for Spanish.

If Hindi is most used would that be considered a common language?

What is the official languages in Canada,Canadian visitor?

Did you complain when your own country made English an official language ? Or are you just racist against Americans and their country?

https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...elds/2098.html

Seems though many countries have an official language also,I guess they are racist and anti immigration.

It is completely and utterly impossible to be 'racist' against Americans, as American is not a race.

Putting aside that race is an obnoxious social construct, it does have a common understanding in English. But either way, Americans are Citizens of the United States and not members of a racial group writ large.

***

Having said that, I think your own backwards way you were trying to suggest I might be hypocritical.

I am not.

The reason Canada has official languages is to the protect the French minority.

Its part of our national bargain.

Our governments also produce documents in many other languages, and our public schools offer courses in Mandarin, Cantonese, Japanese, Hindi, Punjabi, German, Spanish and Arabic [[in larger urban schools, where demand warrants).

***

That said, there is no issue in and of itself with the meaningless law passed in Michigan.

Except, as Bham points out, its intent.

And your misinformed justification.

The law has no utility except to convey xenophobia.

That was not the case here, where we protected a language.

****

Lastly,

I knew all that about India already, and none of what you posted contradicted what I said.

Which like the Michigan law, makes your post pointless.

Mine wasn't an essay on Indian law and custom, merely an indictment of your nonsense Disney reference.

[oladub]

Then you should be absolutely thrilled. Putin's troll farms have done their job, quite well.

Or to put that sentence in context: "Had you read the [[Matt Tiabbi Rolling Stone article), you would have known that Matt Tiabbi makes the point that the left has labeled almost everyone it disagrees with as a Russian bot. That being the case, I should be happy to be called a Russian bot. It's better than being a parrot".

Joe McCarthy was Republican. Contemporary McCarthyites are mostly establishment Democrats although"A major target of [[Russian bot) idiocy has been Sanders."
Even suggesting that Michigan save some tax money by making English the official language of state government seems to bring out the 'Russian bot' talking parrots.

"Get out of line and the man come to take you away" -

[Richard]

It is completely and utterly impossible to be 'racist' against Americans, as American is not a race.

That is the same as saying people are racist against Muslims when Muslim is not a race.


Did you object when English was made the official language in Canada.

Yes or no.

Based on your argument are you going to pressure your government to remove English as the official language because it shows intent towards immigrants?

When English is listed as an official language in Canada everything you demeanor Americans about,when the same policy is applicable,it also applies to yourself.

So by your own words,Canadians are misinformed and conveying xenophobic towards immigrants.

Then you try and blame it on the French pretending to be the nice guy,you need to get a refund on that education.

What was Frances role in Canada leading to a large amount of the population speaking French ?

[gnome]

worse. Thread. E V E R.

[Canadian Visitor]

That is the same as saying people are racist against Muslims when Muslim is not a race.

Quite correct.

You can't be 'racist' against Muslims. You can be racist against Arabs; you can be xenophobic towards Muslim immigrants and you can be Islamophobic towards Muslims in general.

Did you object when English was made the official language in Canada.

Yes or no.

No, I suppose, since the Official Language Act was passed before I was born. It was passed in 1969. French and English were both designated from day one.

Based on your argument are you going to pressure your government to remove English as the official language because it shows intent towards immigrants?

No. Because it didn't and it doesn't.

When English is listed as an official language in Canada everything you demeanor Americans about,when the same policy is applicable,it also applies to yourself.

I don't 'demeanor' Americans; nor do I demean them.

I demean you, as an individual.

I demean pandering politicians in Lansing who send out xenophobic messages through meaningless legislation.

As I noted, the two situations are not analogous.

The Canadian Act was introduced to protect French, not to emphasize English.

Then you try and blame it on the French pretending to be the nice guy,you need to get a refund on that education.

What was Frances role in Canada leading to a large amount of the population speaking French ?

I don't blame the French for anything. LOL

I'm 1/2 Quebecois and speak the language.

Je suis entierement fier de mon heritage et de la dualite
linguistique du pays au sens officiel.

Je suis egalement fier de vivre dans une cacophonie linguistique et une societe multiculturelle.

***

As for France's role, the first European colony in what is now Canada was New France [[which included what is now Quebec, Ontario, Michigan and the lands associated w/the Louisiana Purchase.

Britain defeated France in war in 1763 and won possession of of what is now Quebec among other holdings.

Britain chose from early on to allow Quebec to retain its language and religion.

[swingline]

There is nothing to this law but intent.

What else should be considered, when we have a law with no discernable purpose but to demonize foreigners, immigrants and educated people?

The GOP has told us that this legislation is only intended to codify what we already do in practice. No harm right? Where is the problem? No hidden message here. Besides, this is 'Murica and folks who don't speak English better not forget it. Because 'Murica stands for ... well it means that ..., well ..., anyway, them foreigners should just speak English and not complain. And now with a rubber stamp from the Senate and the Governor we're gonna get a law on our side.

[Richard]

^ and you guys are still dazed and confused on why we have the president that we do.

Maybe when you get a little bit older and more mature you will realize that the world does not operate on feelings and most are not sitting around looking for ways to find offense in everything everybody does.

[Bigb23]

It still pisses me off that Continental Swedes and Dutch speak better English than I do, who was born and raised at Seven mile and Livernois,
To American parents.
Spread the word Vikings.

[oladub]

There is nothing to this law but intent.

What else should be considered, when we have a law with no discernable purpose but to demonize foreigners, immigrants and educated people?

Answer: Saving money by not having to hire translators and print everything in two or more languages. The rest is in your head. Most foreigners know that English is the dominant language before choosing to come here and do learn English. My four grandparents knew no English or French. They learned. If there are nationalities who have problems adjusting, cut their immigration quotas cut to make room for nationalities with better outcomes. I don't expect everything to be translated in English when I travel. Democrats who institute babel are politically pandering, creating expenses and other problems . How are educated people "demonized" by making English the language of Michigan's state government?

[Bham1982]

^ and you guys are still dazed and confused on why we have the president that we do.

No, we're pretty clear on that one. Lots of ignorant, angry, easily conned people resentful of others and desperate for scapegoating.

[Bham1982]

Answer: Saving money by not having to hire translators and print everything in two or more languages.

There is no obligation to "hire translators and print everything in two or more languages". It's frequently done because it's good business sense, though.

How are educated people "demonized" by making English the language of Michigan's state government?

Because A. There's no national language, B. Educated people tend to have higher foreign language proficiency and comfort, C. They're mobile and will go where they're wanted and D. They understand intent.

[aj3647]

Intent. Consider judging not on intent, but on action.

Using intent to judge laws is a bigoted as prohibitions on hate crime.

OK, I'll bite... what does this law actually change? What does it do? Since according to you, we should only judge this law based on what it does, do tell, what does it do?

And if it does nothing, why was it passed then?

Answer: Saving money by not having to hire translators and print everything in two or more languages.

Literally nothing in the text of the actual bill says this. Nothing. In fact, it says the opposite, this bill says that public bodies may continue to use languages other than English at their leisure provided that they are also using English.

https://www.legislature.mi.gov/docum...-HEBH-4053.pdf

In addition to the use of English required under this4 section, a public body may use languages other than English.

So, basically, the status quo. Verbal translation and written official government forms in languages other than English would still be perfectly legal under this proposed law and could be made available at the discretion of public bodies that provide government services, literally just like today.

[Richard]

No, we're pretty clear on that one. Lots of ignorant, angry, easily conned people resentful of others and desperate for scapegoating.

نعم ، يجب عليك حقا إسقاط كل هذا الهراء.

[oladub]

Reviewing aj's legislative link, this law makes English "the official language of the state" and requires its use in meetings, in public records, at official functions and acts of a public body that are enforceable, binding or required by law. The exceptions are if there is a conflict with state or federal law or if public safety, health, or justice requires the use of other languages. That last exception is a pretty big loophole given the proclivities of Democratic judges. Freedom of the press dictates that the state may spend money to print everything in multiple languages if it chooses but it doesn't have to and judges who want to legislate such requirements will have a harder time of it. Also, this bill attempts to make a stand and is an obstacle against the expanding encroachment of bi-lingual requirements.

[Wesley Mouch]

OK, I'll bite... what does this law actually change? What does it do? Since according to you, we should only judge this law based on what it does, do tell, what does it do?
...

Oladub summarizes that: "requires its use in meetings, in public records, at official functions and acts of a public body that are enforceable, binding or required by law."

Unless that is true today, it is a meaningful distinction. One will not in the future be able to make an argument that a law isn't enforceable if not in one's native tongue. So there is a practical change, in addition to the joy it'll spread amongst the massive legion of racists that inhabit our state, daring to vote for Trump and other such unacceptable behavior.

But I'll agree with you, AJ. Its not much. But it also doesn't seem like its much of a practical problem for civil liberties. Maybe you dislike it mostly because certain others like it?

[Bham1982]

نعم ، يجب عليك حقا إسقاط كل هذا الهراء.

Oh, and Russian trolls too. Can't forget the St. Petersburg troll farms successfully conning the most ignorant Americans.

[aj3647]

Oladub summarizes that: "requires its use in meetings, in public records, at official functions and acts of a public body that are enforceable, binding or required by law."

Unless that is true today, it is a meaningful distinction.

Excuse me, "Unless if true?" OK then, my challenge for you or oladub is to find any example, just one, where a public meeting of a government body or municipality was carried out solely in a language other than English. Just one example. I won't hold my breath waiting for one, because such an example doesn't exist.

In the absence of even one example of a public body in Michigan carrying out a meeting solely in Spanish or Arabic or Wakandan or some other language, this would seem to be a solution in search of a problem, would it not?

My issue with it is that this legislation consumed time and resources of the Michigan legislature [[i.e. taxpayer dollars). If it does nothing, then why waste time and money on it?

So now that I've proven that the bill does nothing [[and again, if you care to dispute that point, go ahead and provide that example I asked for earlier), how can I judge this bill on its non-existent actions? I can only judge it on intent, since as I've pointed out like half a dozen times now, it doesn't actually change anything.

This is like those popular "Sharia law" bans that were also a solution in search of a problem.