Transit after Amazon Flop ?

[O3H]

How many massive large SUV's are totally empty most of the day ?
- all that cargo space unused, sitting, eating up ""space"", & resources.

If we really want to go after that ""space"" underutilized thing,
many will have to look no farther than the nearest parking spot.

[dtowncitylover]

No one claimed OC would "fail". The question is why would OC taxpayers pay higher taxes for the honor of more noisy, empty buses clogging their streets? There's zero benefit. I see the buses every day and there's almost no one on them.

Says the guy who derides other people's anecdotal evidence...

If you actually looked at the RTA map it's not about more noisy buses [[are they even that noisy? If anything it will include the purchase of greener and quieter buses but whatever, dude). It's about better, newer routes, AA-DTW-DET commuter rail, airport to local park and rides, and strengthened cross county routes.

[Johnnny5]

At this point, what I would ask is, what do we do?

How about coming up with a regional transit funding plan that is fair to those that are being asked to pay for it?

I know this has been discussed before, but it feels like those pushing the RTA are still completely ignoring the main reason it failed. Hardly anyone is asking what can be changed about the plan to encourage those in Oakland and Macomb to favor it. Instead it's "Let's just get that 1% we missed and to Hell with anyone that is still opposed to it". With that attitude even if it does pass, the foul taste is going to linger and will continue to hold back regional mass transit.

[dtowncitylover]

How about a regional transit funding plan that is fair to those that are being asked to pay for it?

But that's not how regionalism works. How about every person who solely relies on DDOT and/or SMART get to opt out from paying road taxes? How about every family that sends their child to private school can opt out paying the school millage? I don't think I'll be calling 911 or getting pulled over this month, so can I have my taxes back? Thanks!

I'm sorry but you can't move out to Oakland, Orion, Armada, or Van Buren and think you're no longer part of the metropolitan area simply because there isn't a bus line.

Transit shouldn't be Swiss cheese.

Nearly 30 years of LBP at the helm of Oakland County and he has designed it and brainwashed it so that the northern half can make the half-assed argument that "we don't want it" and "make those that use it pay for it" or "just using us for the money". They're living in a fantasy world. Break off and create Patterson County for all I care.

[Kevgoblu]

But that's not how regionalism works. How about every person who solely relies on DDOT and/or SMART get to opt out from paying road taxes? How about every family that sends their child to private school can opt out paying the school millage? I don't think I'll be calling 911 or getting pulled over this month, so can I have my taxes back? Thanks!

I'm sorry but you can't move out to Oakland, Orion, Armada, or Van Buren and think you're no longer part of the metropolitan area simply because there isn't a bus line.

Transit shouldn't be Swiss cheese.

.....

+1

Thank you Dtowncitylover

[swingline]

That's because L. Brooks Patterson knows that the current plans being floated for regional transit would end up costing Oakland County residents far more, and delivering far less than promised. Also, many cities would be on the hook for funding a system that an overwhelming majority of their residents could not [[Or would not) use.

That's not "chicken shit". That's prudent policy from a county executive that is representing the needs and desires of his constituents and committed to properly handling their tax dollars. And it should not come as a surprise as LBP has kept OC government firmly in the black, and unstained by corruption for over two decades [[We all know the same can't be said of Wayne County or the City of Detroit)

Geez. Where to start on this? Well perhaps one can start with the point that LBP and Hackel’s positions on transit are both hypocritically selfish and cluelessly ignorant.


They are hypocritically selfish because from an “I won’t use it” standpoint they ignore the fact that transit taxes are not materially different from all kinds of other taxes including say, education. Conservatively, most communities pay 12-14 mills toward various education millages levied in Michigan. For the sake of argument, let’s say I don’t “use” any of the education institutions here. Never have. Why should I pay a dime for somebody else to get educated. I only care about me and that’s my right. Yeah, the Michigan Constitution says the state has to provide some education, blah, blah, blah. And of course that requirement reflects a value judgment about what a community should provide to all its members regardless of income, wealth, etc; and at a cost of 40-60% of total property taxes paid by most homeowners. But when it comes to making a slightly different value judgment and paying a very small fraction of that annual education cost for transit, LBP and Hackel think that it’s ok to say fuck off, the “users” should pay for the whole thing themselves. They’re being fiscally responsible. Yeah, not really. They’re being selfish hypocrites. Like many of their constituents.


LBP and Hackel are also being cluelessly ignorant because it’s clear they have no concept of the macro economic benefits to a region that enjoys effective mass transit. They just cover their eyes and ears when it comes to acknowledging that there is no globally competitive region in the world that doesn’t have multiple modes of mass transit. As if all the non “users” of transit in those regions don’t benefit from the healthier regional economies that the availability of transit promotes. Yet according to LBP and Hackel, we can be the special snowflake that can prove the entire planet of idiots wrong. We’re so much smarter. Hey, all you 21^st century employers, come to SE Michigan. Your employees will love it here because they won’t have to pay $120 a year to fund mass transit and they will have the personal freedom to ride in their cars to work every day all by themselves. This is a great place.

LBP and Hackel are dinosaurs and they are leading their counties to 21st century global economic irrelevance. They're gonna save all that money though. All those poor schmucks who don't have a car or don't want to sit in traffic need to pay for their own ride. It's a matter of principle and personal responsibility. Sheesh.

[Johnnny5]

But that's not how regionalism works. How about every person who solely relies on DDOT and/or SMART get to opt out from paying road taxes? How about every family that sends their child to private school can opt out paying the school millage? I don't think I'll be calling 911 or getting pulled over this month, so can I have my taxes back? Thanks!

Geez. They are hypocritically selfish because from an “I won’t use it” standpoint they ignore the fact that transit taxes are not materially different from all kinds of other taxes including say, education. Conservatively, most communities pay 12-14 mills toward various education millages levied in Michigan. For the sake of argument, let’s say I don’t “use” any of the education institutions here. Never have. Why should I pay a dime for somebody else to get educated.

Sorry, but the two are vastly different. A taxpayer may not have children for which their tax dollars will be used, but they did themselves benefit from a free public education [[Or at least had the opportunity to do so). A better comparison would be to force those in a city to pay 12-14 mils and then when their kids show up to school say, "Sorry, we know you paid your property taxes, but those funds went to the town 10 miles East of here. You're going to have to pay for private school".

The RTA proposal was asking those of us in the exburbs of Oakland and Macomb Counties that have no possibility of making use of the proposed transit routes to pay 5x, 10x or even 20x more than those that live just steps from those proposed routes. That's not a fair way of funding regional mass transit, and it's not "Selfish" to point that out.

[Honky Tonk]

I don't think I'll be calling 911 or getting pulled over this month, so can I have my taxes back? Thanks!

Great analogy, DCL, getting to Lakeside Mall is a matter of life and death.

[dtowncitylover]

The RTA proposal was asking those of us in the exburbs of Oakland and Macomb Counties that have no possibility of making use of the proposed transit routes to pay 5x, 10x or even 20x more than those that live just steps from those proposed routes. That's not a fair way of funding regional mass transit, and it's not "Selfish" to point that out.

Then they shouldn't have moved out to the boonies thinking they also left the region. They didn't.

And the RTA would've created new routes in previously un-served and underserved areas like Novi, Wixom, Waterford, Rochester Hills, and Canton.

YOU think you have no use for it because there isn't a stop outside your door. There isn't a stop outside my door in Royal Oak, but I know with my two feet, a bike, or a park and ride I can go somewhere to catch the bus.

75 Park and Ride would've been able to take northern Oakland countiers into downtown Detroit where many work. The new Grand River route would've taken west Oakland countiers from Wixom into downtown Detroit where many work. The 275 route and M Routes were park and ride [[or simply drop off and ride) for those Oakland and Macomb countiers going to the airports. A Northville route would've taken commuters right into Southfield, the other major job center.

Did anyone who lives in the exurbs or rural regions even see the map? Actually learn about the RTA and why it's important to have?

The YES campaign did a TERRIBLE job because it wasn't based on education and facts. It was based on emotion. Exurbanites are overwhelmingly white and conservative. Do they really want to hear some sob story about an inner city guy or disabled kid who needs paratransit and feel any emotion? NO!

The RTA needs to have an education/listening campaign and go senior centers and libraries further north and west. It's really not that hard.

[dtowncitylover]

We cannot move forward as a region until we are truly connected. We are not connected. And it's obvious we aren't.

[professorscott]

We cannot move forward as a region until we are truly connected. We are not connected. And it's obvious we aren't.

Worse yet: the number of people who seem to be perfectly OK with that. Sigh.

[dtowncitylover]

Worse yet: the number of people who seem to be perfectly OK with that. Sigh.

Then continued mediocrity, stagnation, and brain drain is what we get.

[softailrider]

How many massive large SUV's are totally empty most of the day ?
- all that cargo space unused, sitting, eating up ""space"", & resources.

If we really want to go after that ""space"" underutilized thing,
many will have to look no farther than the nearest parking spot.

I would say all of them are totally empty most of the day. It’s a free country, if you want to ride around alone in a Ford Explorer, who cares?

I like my cars, never had an SUV, but I might get one. I enjoy driving to work, stopping for breakfast or to play 9 holes before work. I don’t want to drive to work with anybody, I’ll give up my vehicle when you pry it out of my cold dead hands.

[dtowncitylover]

I would say all of them are totally empty most of the day. It’s a free country, if you want to ride around alone in a Ford Explorer, who cares?

I like my cars, never had an SUV, but I might get one. I enjoy driving to work, stopping for breakfast or to play 9 holes before work. I don’t want to drive to work with anybody, I’ll give up my vehicle when you pry it out of my cold dead hands.

I'm not directing this at you, but the point of public transit isn't to make people give up their cars. I love public transit AND my car. It's to give people another CHOICE to one's transportation options, which in metro Detroit is severely limiting.

[ABetterDetroit]

Liberals are fully capable of living in a alternate reality.

Ignoring the obvious and asking to do more of what has already caused great harm to a entire city.

How have sky high property tax rates worked out for Detroit?


https://detroit.curbed.com/2016/6/16...perty-tax-high

https://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...ues/308158002/

[stasu1213]

I had just had a discussion with a rep from SMART online trying to convince him the importance of having the Gratiot Fast bus ending it's line on Michigan and Cass next to the Rosa Parks Transit Center. I informed him that it would be more convenient to connect with other busses from the Fast bus if it stopped there instead of walking from Jefferson and Griswold especially in inclimate weather just to connect with DDOT or another SMART bus. He was saying that the reason why Gratiot Fast doesn't go to the Transit Center is due to it would add more driving time and the bus would be ineffective. I told him that it was just a couple of blocks up Washington Blvd and it would be there.
It's attitude like this that give me the reason why having a good decent reliable transportation system in Detroit and Southeast Michigan is not taken seriously and planners are very shortsighted of the big picture. Many who are on SMART's planning committee don't use public transit on a daily basis and make decisions out of ignorance and not from experience

[Richard]

^ So now find the district representative or city council member and invite them for a bus ride,find out what politicians are pro transit,work with them and give them organized support at the polls,do not be intimidated by politicians they work for you,without you they would not be there and that is what they are there for,to help make the city a better place for everybody.

Do not be afraid to be a squeaky wheel.

[Richard]

Liberals are fully capable of living in a alternate reality.

Ignoring the obvious and asking to do more of what has already caused great harm to a entire city.

How have sky high property tax rates worked out for Detroit?


https://detroit.curbed.com/2016/6/16...perty-tax-high

https://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...ues/308158002/

That comes from the past population shift were the ratio of people putting into the system verses taking out,the only way to resolve that is by bringing in more residents.Upping the value of a home to justify a high tax rate is not really the answer,just smoke and mirrors without addressing the core issue.

In the slowdown a lot of businesses increased the product price when the market dropped,they sold 50% less product but made the same money.

Same with Detroit 50% residents left so the rates went up for the rest to maintain the same revenue,it just kinda disappeared before,so now it is playing catch up for the past while trying to maintain the present.

The state of Massachusetts is bleeding residents because of high taxes,even if they are providing the services there becomes a choking point.

[O3H]

Gerrymandering fixes everything, regionally,..... right ?

[Bham1982]

T
The state of Massachusetts is bleeding residents because of high taxes,even if they are providing the services there becomes a choking point.

MA is the fastest growing state in the Northeastern U.S., and doesn't have high taxes.

[Bham1982]

They are hypocritically selfish because from an “I won’t use it” standpoint they ignore the fact that transit taxes are not materially different from all kinds of other taxes including say, education.

It's a poor analogy because everyone benefits from education funding. First, around 90% of taxpayers will have children at some point in their lives. Second, even if you never have children, you benefit from an educated populace. Third, basically all taxpayers were schooled, in their childhood years.

It isn't clear how there's some analogous collective benefit if we run more buses up and down Southfield Rd. And it's hard to push a tax with such abstract objectives.

[Richard]

MA is the fastest growing state in the Northeastern U.S., and doesn't have high taxes.

I live in a state where people from every state moves to and the reason why comes up in conversation,I have a tendency to put more stock in what the person expirences verses what is published.

The downside is people have a tendency to make changes to replicate where they moved from which in turn recreates the exact same situation that they left.

[Richard]

It's a poor analogy because everyone benefits from education funding. First, around 90% of taxpayers will have children at some point in their lives. Second, even if you never have children, you benefit from an educated populace. Third, basically all taxpayers were schooled, in their childhood years.

It isn't clear how there's some analogous collective benefit if we run more buses up and down Southfield Rd. And it's hard to push a tax with such abstract objectives.

My kids are grown and their children are in private school so why should I have to pay taxes into the public school system.If I drive less then 3000 miles a year why should I have to pay the same road taxes and registration fees as,salespeople,soccer moms makeing 30 trips a day,commercial vehicles are taxed a higher rate because of their usage maybe that should be applied across the board.In fairness.

How is mass transit not a collective benefit?

Service industry workers that serve your meals,clean your hotel rooms and houses etc. do not make enough to pay the insurance rates or bear the costs of auto ownership,what are you telling them,they are not part of the collective bigger picture and they can walk to work?

I wonder if federal incentives would make it feasible to build low income housing enmass in areas like Macomb county,low income workers living there would have to rely on public transportation and would justify the need to run buses there.

What is the collective good if you are picking what part of the collectives needs are met,I think that is called something else.

[bust]

How many massive large SUV's are totally empty most of the day ?
- all that cargo space unused, sitting, eating up ""space"", & resources.

If we really want to go after that ""space"" underutilized thing,
many will have to look no farther than the nearest parking spot.

And moreover, it's not just the wasted space inside the car, it's all the wasted space between them. According to the State of Michigan, a safe driving distance is at least 2 seconds behind the car ahead of you under ordinary conditions. If you're driving 35 miles per hour, that's more than 100 feet of empty space between you and the car ahead [[calculations below). And it gets worse: the safe driving distance increases to 3 seconds behind the car ahead of you at night, and 4 seconds during inclement weather. That's more than 150 feet of wasted space, and more than 200, respectively.

Buses are subject to this too. But divide that wasted space by the number passengers on a bus compared to the number in a car, and that's how you'll determine the wasted space per passenger each vehicle requires.

100 feet would be an absurd amount of space between two rows on a bus.

Feet traveled per second at 35 miles per hour:
35 miles per hour / [[60 minutes per hour * 60 seconds per minute) * 5280 feet per mile == ~51 feet per second

Michigan State Police Safe Driving Tips
http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,4643,7...6230--,00.html

[bust]

It's a poor analogy because everyone benefits from education funding. First, around 90% of taxpayers will have children at some point in their lives. Second, even if you never have children, you benefit from an educated populace. Third, basically all taxpayers were schooled, in their childhood years.

First, around 100% of taxpayers need to get places. Second, even if you never leave home or adamantly insist never to get anywhere except by car you benefit from other people more easily getting places to bring things to you. Third, the exchange of products and services is the basic core of every economy. Facilitating those exchanges benefits everyone, including the naysayers in the exurbs, and the ones on the barely perceptible slopes of Bloomfield Hills.