Leveraging the Detroit-Windsor International Metropolis Status

[Jason]

Southfield is the largest office submarket in Michigan.

I would be surprised if even 5% of Metro passengers are headed downtown. Most are just transferring through, and obviously the airport draws from a very large local geography. They are as likely to be headed to Clarkston or Brownstown or Port Huron as downtown.

Sorry, my mistake, ALL of Southfield/Bingham Farms looks to be 19 million, and the little square mile of downtown is second place at 17 million. Including the midtown/new center submarket which is 5 million boosts greater downtown to 22 million. Even if you didn't include Midtown/New Center, downtown has more actual active square feet because of the different vacancy rates.

Either way, my point still stands, if you had to track all of the places every visitor went to during their trip and made a heatmap out of it, the single hottest area would be downtown. Even people not going downtown still might end up there recreationally during their trip. Even if it's still not a huge percent of the total it's still the biggest single destination. Which is why other cities have transit connecting their airports to their downtowns.

Unless the argument right now is that practically every major city in the world is wrong, and Detroit is the clever one by skipping transit.

[313WX]

What a bizarre post. You seriously think that if Detroit received an Amazon office, that Windsor would suddenly see a deluge of immigrants from Toronto. Why?

People go where the good-paying jobs are.

[Bham1982]

People go where the good-paying jobs are.

So why aren't they flocking to Windsor right now? Plenty of high-pay jobs in Metro Detroit are going begging. Huge employee shortage in engineering and high-skilled positions.

[iheartthed]

You are correct in that far more people drive to Toronto than Windsor to get a flight, and it is almost always a Transatlantic flight when they do. The biggest reason Toronto flights are so much cheaper is because Toronto is Canada's alpha city. Thus any foreign airline that is going to offer Transatlantic service to Canada will fly into Toronto. So you have at least a dozen other European airlines competing with the Air Canada at its hub, and it is that much competition that brings Toronto Transatlantic prices down.

Converesly, generally DTW has much more competition to other US cities than Toronto. Hence for the people you mention coming from London, ON to use DTW, those people are almost always going to a US destination because US destinations are cheaper from DTW.

Now, going back to Windsor... one of the better kept secrets is for Transatlantic prices, Toronto <<< Windsor <<< DTW. Yes, more people coming from Michigan opt for the lowest price and drive to Toronto. But I know a lot of people who do go to Windsor [[ and yes they fly to Toronto to connect), but they do use Windsor because they are either getting dropped off or because they don't want to make the long drive to Toronto.

Anyway, my point is getting more people to use the Windsor airport is good for the region, and if Windsor became viewed more as a competitor to DTW, you also could see some DTW Transatlantic prices come down as a side benefit.

The reason why Toronto is cheaper is actually because of taxes and surcharges on tickets to U.S. airports. I was actually having a conversation with my coworker about this recently. He's native to Toronto but is currently based in Chicago. He was saying that it is significantly cheaper for him to buy international tickets from Toronto than from Chicago.

If you have plans to fly international any time soon, look at the fees on your ticket. They will probably be at least half the cost of the total fare.

[313WX]

Plenty of high-pay jobs in Metro Detroit are going begging.

Unless you're a mechanical engineer and want to work in an industry that's shrinking and extremely cyclical [[thus a lack of long-term job security), not really.

Places that *really* have plenty of good-paying jobs for *everyone* in a *variety* of industries [[and a low COL) are Atlanta, Minneapolis, Nashville and Charlotte.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/22/u...-to-leave.html

[bust]

Unless you're a mechanical engineer and want to work in an industry that's shrinking and extremely cyclical [[thus a lack of long-term job security), not really.

Places that *really* have plenty of good-paying jobs for *everyone* in a *variety* of industries [[and a low COL) are Atlanta, Minneapolis, Nashville and Charlotte.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/22/u...-to-leave.html

I agree with your critique of Detroit. I also thought that article you linked to was interesting. But there are big questions it leaves unanswered regarding why people choose to stay or leave the states where they attended college. It doesn't make sense to me that it's because of the respective local economies that college graduates tend to leave New York and stay in South Carolina. Something else is going on.

I think it has a lot to do with open-mindedness and [[on the other side) a desire to preserve a way of life. Or perhaps even more than a way of life, a mindset. A frame within which to view the world. I'd argue that New Yorkers tend to be more open to experiencing the world. And for example in South Carolina the local mindset is more close-minded and particularly strong. And since there are fewer and fewer places where they can go and not have it challenged many prefer to stay at home.

I hope you catch my drift.

Again, I don't speak from a position of complete ignorance. I have stories about South Carolina from a white person's perspective that may surprise you. People there say things to me, based on my appearance, they would not admit to you. And that prevent me, as someone among the more rational and fair-minded people, from wanting to live in the South.

So for example when on another thread you wonder why Atlanta might have trouble recruiting top tech talent, it's not because it's a "black city". On the contrary, it's because among the diverse mix of white people who live there there are too many whom people like me would strongly rather not want to associate with.

Too bad so many places are still so segregated. Too bad that mindset I allude to definitely still exists.

[313WX]

I agree with your critique of Detroit. I also thought that article you linked to was interesting. But there are big questions it leaves unanswered regarding why people choose to stay or leave the states where they attended college. It doesn't make sense to me that it's because of the respective local economies that college graduates tend to leave New York and stay in South Carolina. Something else is going on.

I think it has a lot to do with open-mindedness and [[on the other side) a desire to preserve a way of life. Or perhaps even more than a way of life, a mindset. A frame within which to view the world. I'd argue that New Yorkers tend to be more open to experiencing the world. And for example in South Carolina the local mindset is more close-minded and particularly strong. And since there are fewer and fewer places where they can go and not have it challenged many prefer to stay at home.

I hope you catch my drift.

Again, I don't speak from a position of complete ignorance. I have stories about South Carolina from a white person's perspective that may surprise you. People there say things to me, based on my appearance, they would not admit to you. And that prevent me, as someone among the more rational and fair-minded people, from wanting to live in the South.

So for example when on another thread you wonder why Atlanta might have trouble recruiting top tech talent, it's not because it's a "black city". On the contrary, it's because among the diverse mix of white people who live there there are too many whom people like me would strongly rather not want to associate with.

Too bad so many places are still so segregated. Too bad that mindset I allude to definitely still exists.

I have to disagree. The racism that occurs down south is no worse or better than the racism up north.

The biggest difference is, people will put on acts and hide their feelings up north in places like Detroit, even resorting to code words like "thugs" or "Detroiters" [[but will say the most vile things about you behind your back). Look up Minnesota Nice to see what I'm talking about.

Meanwhile down south in places like Atlanta, you'll know right off the bat if someone doesn't like you for your race.

What I love about down south however is despite whatever hatred one race may have for another, people still have no problem integrating with each other. It's very common in restaurants, retail stores, etc. to see people of different races working with and mingling amongst each other. Meanwhile, up north in places like Detroit, self-segregation by race is taken to the extreme.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but plenty of people do share my perspective, so I know I'm not alone in my feelings. A quote that I think hits it out of the park is:

"In the South, blacks can get close as long as they don't get uppity. In the North, blacks can get uppity as long as they don't get close."

https://www.colorlines.com/articles/...d-fair-housing

EDIT: BTW, who said Atlanta has trouble recruiting top tech talent? It has consistently been one of the top places for educated millennials for the past 20 years and counting. It also has the largest number of tech talent in the country outside the megalopolises on the east / west coast, Chicago, DC [[albeit DC has the slowest rate of growth for tech talent) and Dallas.

[bust]

Yeah, Detroit has bad problems too, and I'm well aware of them. Coming from there I would not be surprised if Atlanta is refreshing. Meanwhile I believe Atlanta is a lot better than that part of South Carolina I was speaking of. And maybe my experiences have been out of the ordinary. In any case I certainly can not experience life from your perspective. Good luck in Atlanta!

And sorry to everyone else for taking this tread off topic. The original topic and previous discussion it inspired are very interesting.

[313WX]

Yeah, Detroit has bad problems too, and I'm well aware of them. Coming from there I would not be surprised if Atlanta is refreshing. Meanwhile I believe Atlanta is a lot better than that part of South Carolina I was speaking of. And maybe my experiences have been out of the ordinary. In any case I certainly can not experience life from your perspective. Good luck in Atlanta!

And sorry to everyone else for taking this tread off topic. The original topic and previous discussion it inspired are very interesting.

All rural areas [[whether it's Iowa or South Carolina) are equally more xenophobic than big cities. That's nothing new.

But this idea that big cities in the south are more or less racist than big cities in the north is pure misinformation IMO.

As far as Atlanta being refreshing, it's far from a utopia. The town has its own set of problems. Whereas Detroit will never have to worry about a lack of water, Atlanta's water supply is very limited. Whereas Detroit doesn't have congestion problems because of its overbuilt infrastructure, Atlanta's suffering from underbuilt infrastructure that's not keeping up with its rapid growth.

In fact, I can think of several other cities that I would be happy to call home.

All of that being said, my point is Atlanta's doing something right if they continue to consistently attract transplants from places such as Chicago, NYC and Detroit.

[DetroitNightLights]

I tend to agree with Birmingham on this one. The premise that an international border is somehow advantageous seems questionable, at best, to me. I've read through the entire thread, and no particular reason given or idea floated seems especially meaningful.

Detroit - Windsor is a huge International shipping hub. Logistics companies, from trucking companies, to refrigeration shipping companies, to pallet manufacturers are located here and benefit from the International boarder. Some companies might benefit from being close to these other companies, especially if they want to broaden their own shipping service.

Attracting workers from a bigger labor pool and having offices in both cities may be desirable for some companies.