Leveraging the Detroit-Windsor International Metropolis Status

[O3H]

Windsor, Ontario has "unique" , "different" , items for sale due to the fact is a complete different country with its own trade rules/regulations.

There are items you can find in Ontario stores which are damn hard or next to impossible to find in the United States. It gets a whole lot colder by Hudson Bay than it does in Detroit. Windsor is a great place to shop, depending on the exchange rates.

Windsor, is like our Florida, for those in the Ontario province.

https://res.cloudinary.com/greenwich...upload/ontario

[Canadian Visitor]

Apparently the Uber-Canadian poster is offended at an honest, sober depiction of the less-than-overwhelming glories of Windsor/Essex County. I'm utterly devastated...

Of course you're not devastated.

You've long shown, in countless threads, on myriad topics, in exchanges w/countless posters a complete indifference to what others think of you.

For the most part, its not the opinions you have that are the problem [[though some are rather poorly informed).

Rather, its your tone.

First, this is a thread started by someone who asked a positive question; what CAN we do?

Do you notice something Bham? He didn't ask whether we should.

You offered an opinion that insulted the OP, who on top of that happens to be the kind and thoughtful host of this forum.
By arguing over his most basic premise.

There are times when you are allowed to sit quietly in the corner; this was one.

Second, if you must speak, do so w/relevance and perhaps a modicum of courtesy.

Pointing out the obvious, that Windsor lacks certain big city amenities or attractions doesn't aid in the question at all. Lowell in no way limited his focus to tourism.

The question was one of harnessing one thing about Detroit which is relatively unique among larger American cities which is its proximity to Canada in general, and in particular, Windsor.

I provided lengthy list of suggestions.

You didn't comment on one. That's fine as far as it goes. Except that you were both off-topic and irrelevant and it strikes me as likely that was the case because you neither read the intent of the original post correctly, nor the entries below.

You took your usual negative spirit and applied it to arrive at a justification for crapping on something. Your usual modus operendi.

So be it.

You have freedom of speech and tolerant host. But I reserve the right to correct you; and to chastise your poor attitude.

[Atticus]

The best thing that could be done IMO is a transit connection of some kind between downtown Detroit and the Windsor Airport. [[I am also in favor of a transit connection to DTW, but save that for another thread).

It would be great for area flyers. Many Americans already drive across to Windsor to take advantage of the lower airfares. Adding transit would bring more awareness, make the airport more accessible, and ultimately increase the number of passengers using the Windsor Airport. This in turn would lead to increased air service, and open the region up to more destinations.

It would also lower fares at DTW. With the increased competition that would result at Windsor, Delta which has a monopoly on many routes at DTW would get some more competition in the region which hopefully would result in lower fares at DTW. Also good for business.

So yeah, add transit to the Windsor airport, market it, and watch the benefits of competition result in more, cheaper air service to the region.

[Bham1982]

The best thing that could be done IMO is a transit connection of some kind between downtown Detroit and the Windsor Airport. [[I am also in favor of a transit connection to DTW, but save that for another thread).

Our international airport is half-empty and we'll be paying off the bonds for decades, so we should now build up tiny Windsor Airport? Why, exactly? The enticing combo of higher Canadian airfares and an airport which can't even accommodate large aircraft, in a region where most people can't even cross the border?

And what the hell, let's build a transit line while we're at it. Shouldn't be more than a couple billion. I'm sure there's a vast number of Michiganders looking to take a choo choo to Windsor Airport.

So yeah, add transit to the Windsor airport, market it, and watch the benefits of competition result in more, cheaper air service to the region.

Flint, Lansing and Toledo all have more developed airports, including discount carriers. There's always City Airport. And, unlike Windsor, Detroiters can actually get to these places.

[Atticus]

Our international airport is half-empty and we'll be paying off the bonds for decades, so we should now build up tiny Windsor Airport? Why, exactly? The enticing combo of higher Canadian airfares and an airport which can't even accommodate large aircraft, in a region where most people can't even cross the border?

And what the hell, let's build a transit line while we're at it. Shouldn't be more than a couple billion. I'm sure there's a vast number of Michiganders looking to take a choo choo to Windsor Airport.



Flint, Lansing and Toledo all have more developed airports, including discount carriers. There's always City Airport. And, unlike Windsor, Detroiters can actually get to these places.

So much misinformation in this post. First, on the international front, in terms of number of non-stop flights to Asia, DTW is #6 in the USA [[behind NYC, CHI, LA, SanFran, and Seattle) with direct flights to five different Asian cities. It has a daily flight to South America [[only other airport in the midwest besides O'Hare to have that). On the Transatlantic side, this summer DTW will have 13 daily direct flights to 7 different European airports. Most other large cities in the Midwest are offering huge tax incentives to the airlines to get ONE European flight. DTW has 13 without offering tax payer dollars. Not too shabby. The international side of the DTW airport is doing quite well, and bats well above its weight given the size of the region.

The biggest negative about DTW is that Delta has a near monopoly on many of the business routes, which means higher fares. There is very little competition. Which is WHY it would be beneficial to build up Windsor and introduce some competition on the international side of things.

Atlanta, Denver, Cleveland, St Louis, Minneapolis, Chicago, Seattle, and many others ALL invested in transit connections between their airports and the city center. Transit is never cheap, but if you can't see the business benefits of connecting the airports to the city center via transit, you must either be an Uber Driver or the owner of a rent-a-car agency.

The lack of transit connections to the airports is the biggest hole in the region in terms of transit, and there are a lot of transit holes in this region.

[Richard]

According to the Michigan Sec. of State website, the deadline for domestic travel is Oct. 2020. You don't necessarily need an enhanced license, if your license is REAL ID compatible. My current license has a circle and a star, which would qualify me to fly domestic in 2020. I'll need to upgrade at my next renewal to make sure I can travel internationally. From the site's FAQ:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is an enhanced driver's license or state ID acceptable for domestic air travel? Yes, your enhanced driver’s license is acceptable for domestic air travel. Under the federal REAL ID law, Michigan residents must show a REAL ID-compliant document when flying in the United States beginning Oct. 1, 2020. Your enhanced driver’s license or ID card meets the federal REAL ID standards and may be used when flying domestically.


Michigan also issues another type of driver’s license and state ID that is REAL ID compliant. These licenses and IDs are identified by a gold circle with a star printed in the upper right-hand corner. While these REAL ID licenses and ID cards are accepted for flying domestically, they cannot be used to enter the United States by land or sea when returning from Canada, Mexico, Bermuda or the Caribbean. For that, you’ll need an enhanced license or ID card.


After Oct. 1, 2020, if you do not have an enhanced license or state ID, or a REAL ID license or ID [[with the gold circle and star), you will have to present another form of accepted document when flying in the United States, such as a valid U.S. passport or passport card. The Transportation Security Administration website at www.tsa.gov has a complete list of all accepted REAL ID documents.

DHS who controls airport security words It a bit different.

• Starting January 22, 2018, passengers with a driver’s license issued by a state that is still not compliant with the REAL ID Act [[and has not been granted an extension) will need to show an alternative form of acceptable identification for domestic air travel to board their flight. To check whether your state is compliant or has an extension, click here. Passengers with driver’s licenses issued by a state that is compliant with REAL ID [[or a state that has been issued an extension) will still be able to use their driver’s licenses or identification cards.

https://www.dhs.gov/real-id-public-faqs

I have a real-ID from Florida that looks like every other one I had before,I just had to prove that I was born in this country in order to renew it.

But my modes of travel are trains,boats,cars so not much interested in planes anymore.

[masterblaster]

Of course you're not devastated.

You've long shown, in countless threads, on myriad topics, in exchanges w/countless posters a complete indifference to what others think of you.

For the most part, its not the opinions you have that are the problem [[though some are rather poorly informed).

Rather, its your tone.

First, this is a thread started by someone who asked a positive question; what CAN we do?

Do you notice something Bham? He didn't ask whether we should.

You offered an opinion that insulted the OP, who on top of that happens to be the kind and thoughtful host of this forum.
By arguing over his most basic premise.

There are times when you are allowed to sit quietly in the corner; this was one.

Second, if you must speak, do so w/relevance and perhaps a modicum of courtesy.

Pointing out the obvious, that Windsor lacks certain big city amenities or attractions doesn't aid in the question at all. Lowell in no way limited his focus to tourism.

The question was one of harnessing one thing about Detroit which is relatively unique among larger American cities which is its proximity to Canada in general, and in particular, Windsor.

I provided lengthy list of suggestions.

You didn't comment on one. That's fine as far as it goes. Except that you were both off-topic and irrelevant and it strikes me as likely that was the case because you neither read the intent of the original post correctly, nor the entries below.

You took your usual negative spirit and applied it to arrive at a justification for crapping on something. Your usual modus operendi.

So be it.

You have freedom of speech and tolerant host. But I reserve the right to correct you; and to chastise your poor attitude.

I would love for that Bham82 to evaluate all of the ideas you proposed in post #2, but that's too much to ask of that fellow. He is silent unless he sees an opportunity to minimize, belittle, or denigrate something to do with the city of Detroit and any proposed changes that would make the Detroit/Windsor region better.

[313WX]

So much misinformation in this post.

Bham is partially right.

Detroit has a very bad habit of overbuilding infrastructure for this future growth that's never going to materialize [[roads and the airport are perfect examples of this). It can be a good thing if you hate a ton of traffic and congestion, but it can be a waste of money too because you're never going to get a good return on investment.

DTW is significantly underutilized [[in terms of passenger count and total number of flights in/out) compared to other airports. I made a post in another thread comparing DTW's number of gates and passengers compared to ATL to show how far below capacity DTW really is.

Frankly, we're blessed to have the airport we do in terms of direct flight options, because of the Auto Industry. Delta may have a monopoly on the market, but that's only because it's stagnant at best [[companies aren't investing a lot of time/money in stagnant/shrinking markets these days) and relatively low-volume. If it wasn't for Delta, Detroit's airport hub would be completely gutted and we would lose many of our direct flight options [[see Cincinnati, Memphis, and to a lesser extent, Boston).

[313WX]

The best thing that could be done IMO is a transit connection of some kind between downtown Detroit and the Windsor Airport. [[I am also in favor of a transit connection to DTW, but save that for another thread).

I don't know of anyone in Michigan that drives to Canada to use Windsor's airport.

Perhaps when they say they're going to Canada to take a flight, they mean driving up to Toronto for a cheaper international flight [[because of Toronto's economies of scale, they're able to offer cheaper flights by default).

That said, the reverse is the case as well. While at the airport Saturday, I overhead a couple from London, ON who drove all the way to Detroit to take a domestic flight [[versus Toronto or Buffalo) because the cost was much cheaper.

[O3H]

It's easy to get a passport. Skip this nonsense of driver license.
I know of no one who vacations in Detroit - it's business or family.
When I lived in NY, it was cheaper to fly to Florida, than to Detroit.
I doubt that Detroit will ever truly become a real Vacation Destination.

SEMCOG statistics:

In 2009, 251 Canadian-owned businesses in Michigan
employed 22,016 people in 679 locations.

The Montreal-Toronto-Windsor-Detroit-Chicago corridor is one
of the densest and most interconnected transportation corridors in
North America. This corridor acts as the backbone of transportation
networks linking both freight and passenger movement between
the U.S. and Canada

[DetroitNightLights]

But my modes of travel are trains,boats,cars so not much interested in planes anymore.

One good thing about President Trump is the elimination of VIPR. Rail, bus, and ferry travel should become easier. Then again, he is diverting that DHS funding to pay for a border wall.

Trump budget eliminates three post-9/11 airport security programs

[Atticus]

I don't know of anyone in Michigan that drives to Canada to use Windsor's airport.

Perhaps when they say they're going to Canada to take a flight, they mean driving up to Toronto for a cheaper international flight [[because of Toronto's economies of scale, they're able to offer cheaper flights by default).

That said, the reverse is the case as well. While at the airport Saturday, I overhead a couple from London, ON who drove all the way to Detroit to take a domestic flight [[versus Toronto or Buffalo) because the cost was much cheaper.

You are correct in that far more people drive to Toronto than Windsor to get a flight, and it is almost always a Transatlantic flight when they do. The biggest reason Toronto flights are so much cheaper is because Toronto is Canada's alpha city. Thus any foreign airline that is going to offer Transatlantic service to Canada will fly into Toronto. So you have at least a dozen other European airlines competing with the Air Canada at its hub, and it is that much competition that brings Toronto Transatlantic prices down.

Converesly, generally DTW has much more competition to other US cities than Toronto. Hence for the people you mention coming from London, ON to use DTW, those people are almost always going to a US destination because US destinations are cheaper from DTW.

Now, going back to Windsor... one of the better kept secrets is for Transatlantic prices, Toronto <<< Windsor <<< DTW. Yes, more people coming from Michigan opt for the lowest price and drive to Toronto. But I know a lot of people who do go to Windsor [[ and yes they fly to Toronto to connect), but they do use Windsor because they are either getting dropped off or because they don't want to make the long drive to Toronto.

Anyway, my point is getting more people to use the Windsor airport is good for the region, and if Windsor became viewed more as a competitor to DTW, you also could see some DTW Transatlantic prices come down as a side benefit.

[1953]

I tend to agree with Birmingham on this one. The premise that an international border is somehow advantageous seems questionable, at best, to me. I've read through the entire thread, and no particular reason given or idea floated seems especially meaningful.

[Atticus]

I tend to agree with Birmingham on this one. The premise that an international border is somehow advantageous seems questionable, at best, to me. I've read through the entire thread, and no particular reason given or idea floated seems especially meaningful.

The border is definitely not advantageous if it's benefits are not utilized... which for the most part is the case. Most Detroiters forget Windsor is there. It is a hassle to get to, and you often have frustratingly long lines to wait in when driving across the bridge.

That being said, for the later part of the 20th century having a river flow through Detroit wasn't really advantageous either. Detroiters forgot about it. Then early this century a beautiful river walk was built. Now we utilize the river, where before we didn't.

That is what this thread is about... about how Windsor and the boarder could be used to Detroits advantage [[and vice versa), because, like the river 20 years ago, that border is not being fully utilized today.

[Richard]

There is a guy [[searchable) that has put together a hybrid 15 seater plane that is going to be based at regional smaller airports,you will supposed to be able to walk out and board on the tarmac like the old days.

The goal is to city hop useing the smaller airports,the first report was he had it down to $8 a seat because of the fuel savings,but then other reports brought it up higher,that could be a game changer in the coming year.

Maybe saying he put together was not the best choice of words for aircraft.

[masterblaster]

I tend to agree with Birmingham on this one. The premise that an international border is somehow advantageous seems questionable, at best, to me. I've read through the entire thread, and no particular reason given or idea floated seems especially meaningful.

Access to labor pool of two countries. Canadian professionals can live in Windsor and commute across the river to downtown Detroit. A company as huge as Amazon will draw professionals from the Greater Toronto Area to live in Windsor.

Because Canadian cities have a very large immigrant population compared to the U.S., is part of the British Commonwealth, and promotes immigration moreso than the U.S. [[for example, 27% of Windsor's population is foreign-born), the labor pool of Canada consists of a more diverse population and will enable Amazon to have access to more people who are originally from places like India, South America, and Jamaica.

[archfan]

...Because Canadian cities have a very large immigrant population compared to the U.S., is part of the British Commonwealth, and promotes immigration moreso than the U.S. [[for example, 27% of Windsor's population is foreign-born), the labor pool of Canada consists of a more diverse population and will enable Amazon to have access to more people who are originally from places like India, South America, and Jamaica.

There were several articles about how worried the tech giants were earlier this year during the immigration controversy. Your last point may be a good selling point - if your immigrant workers get kicked out, they might be able to work in the Windsor office.

[Bham1982]

Access to labor pool of two countries. Canadian professionals can live in Windsor and commute across the river to downtown Detroit.

Windsor and Essex County, combined, don't even have the population of Genesee County. If Amazon is looking for "big labor pool" obviously they don't care about a lightly populated county bordering the U.S. It does almost nothing to "move the needle" of regional population.

Because Canadian cities have a very large immigrant population compared to the U.S., is part of the British Commonwealth, and promotes immigration moreso than the U.S. [[for example, 27% of Windsor's population is foreign-born), the labor pool of Canada consists of a more diverse population and will enable Amazon to have access to more people who are originally from places like India, South America, and Jamaica.

There are more immigrants in Metro Detroit than there are people in Windsor/Essex. Even with immigrants [[and I doubt this would be a consideration) Windsor does not move the needle.

[masterblaster]

Windsor and Essex County, combined, don't even have the population of Genesee County. If Amazon is looking for "big labor pool" obviously they don't care about a lightly populated county bordering the U.S. It does almost nothing to "move the needle" of regional population.



There are more immigrants in Metro Detroit than there are people in Windsor/Essex. Even with immigrants [[and I doubt this would be a consideration) Windsor does not move the needle.

The Greater Toronto Area [[GTA) is a very large metro [[6 million people) and a very expensive place to live in Canada. If Amazon was to set up shop downtown, it is very, very likely that tech professionals who live in the GTA and other cities in Ontario would move to Windsor/Essex to work for Amazon for the job and lower cost of living.

In addition, as you very well know, Canadian cities like Toronto, Montreal, etc are very, very diverse with a ton of immigrants from places like India, Southeast Asia, and South America. If Amazon sets up shop in Detroit, it would allow Canadians and Canadian immigrants from Windsor and other parts of Canada to work for a big tech giant like Amazon, yet still be able to live in their own country.

[401don]

The Greater Toronto Area [[GTA) is a very large metro [[6 million people) and a very expensive place to live in Canada. If Amazon was to set up shop downtown, it is very, very likely that tech professionals who live in the GTA and other cities in Ontario would move to Windsor/Essex to work for Amazon for the job and lower cost of living.

In addition, as you very well know, Canadian cities like Toronto, Montreal, etc are very, very diverse with a ton of immigrants from places like India, Southeast Asia, and South America. If Amazon sets up shop in Detroit, it would allow Canadians and Canadian immigrants from Windsor and other parts of Canada to work for a big tech giant like Amazon, yet still be able to live in their own country.

All of these points are correct. The GTA is still growing rapidly and there is no longer land to build new housing. Lots of young people have been priced out of the housing market other than tiny condos. Grads from Univ. of Western Ontario in London and U. of Waterloo, most of whom consider themselves southwestern Ontario residents, would gladly move to Windsor. Add in the favorable Canadian immigration policies [[again people who have no attachment to the GTA) and there's tremendous labor opportunities. Gilbert was clearly aware of this from the beginning.

[Hermod]

Frankly, we're blessed to have the airport we do in terms of direct flight options, because of the Auto Industry. Delta may have a monopoly on the market, but that's only because it's stagnant at best [[companies aren't investing a lot of time/money in stagnant/shrinking markets these days) and relatively low-volume. If it wasn't for Delta, Detroit's airport hub would be completely gutted and we would lose many of our direct flight options [[see Cincinnati, Memphis, and to a lesser extent, Boston).

The main reason that DTW has the flight which it has was Northwest Airlines choosing to make DTW the hub of its hub and spoke system [[inherited by Delta). It wasn't the auto industry that made NW make that choice, it was because the weather was better in Detroit than in Minneapolis-St Paul and Chicago O'Hare was bursting at the seams.

Remember that to an airline operating a hub and spoke system, the hub doesn't have to be a much of a destination in its own right.

[Hermod]

Transit to and from the airport: One question is, what percent of inbound fliers are going to a destination in downtown Detroit? What percent of outbound fliers originate in downtown Detroit?

Just considering GM employees and the people that do business with them. What percent are going to the RenCen and what percent are going to the Tech Center or the Proving Ground?

When people have to "go to Detroit" they usually don't mean to go to the downtown area.

[Jason]

I don't know what the percent would be, but it's going to be the biggest single destination. Downtown is by far the biggest office submarket. I'd be shocked if it didn't have the biggest concentration of hotel rooms, and it's also where most conventions and other events are held.

It's also a pretty standard feature to have convenient transit access from the airport to the downtown. By the time you're done with shuttles and car rentals you could already be in your hotel downtown if there was transit.

And also having good transit to the airport would make downtown more attractive for businesses with a lot of travel so things would naturally organize themselves that way if there were transit.

[Bham1982]

The Greater Toronto Area [[GTA) is a very large metro [[6 million people) and a very expensive place to live in Canada. If Amazon was to set up shop downtown, it is very, very likely that tech professionals who live in the GTA and other cities in Ontario would move to Windsor/Essex to work for Amazon for the job and lower cost of living.

In addition, as you very well know, Canadian cities like Toronto, Montreal, etc are very, very diverse with a ton of immigrants from places like India, Southeast Asia, and South America. If Amazon sets up shop in Detroit, it would allow Canadians and Canadian immigrants from Windsor and other parts of Canada to work for a big tech giant like Amazon, yet still be able to live in their own country.

What a bizarre post. You seriously think that if Detroit received an Amazon office, that Windsor would suddenly see a deluge of immigrants from Toronto. Why?

Why not put the Amazon office in, say, Gila Bend, Arizona? About as far from LA as Windsor is from Toronto, and LA gets a ton more immigrants than Toronto. Or better yet, put the damn office in Toronto [[or LA) instead of hoping that immigrants from faraway cities would flock to your new Amazon office.

[Bham1982]

I don't know what the percent would be, but it's going to be the biggest single destination. Downtown is by far the biggest office submarket.

Southfield is the largest office submarket in Michigan.

I would be surprised if even 5% of Metro passengers are headed downtown. Most are just transferring through, and obviously the airport draws from a very large local geography. They are as likely to be headed to Clarkston or Brownstown or Port Huron as downtown.