Welcome to Bernie/Independent/Third Party Land

[Pam]

Bernie acknowledges being briefed.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/21/polit...nce/index.html

That doesn't mean the allegations are true. The US intelligence agenies have a history of lying.

[Ray1936]

If Bernie wins the Dem nomination, Trump will take 48 states. No brainer.

[Richard]

Yea,I think the DNC would have no problem falling on the sword and work towards 2024,they are in it for the long term,Bernie being elected would label them as the progressive/socialist party verses the republicans for a long time.

The democrat conservative base would flee en mass.

[jcole]

Apparently he believed it enough to address it and not deny it could happen.

That doesn't mean the allegations are true. The US intelligence agenies have a history of lying.

[Pam]

If Bernie wins the Dem nomination, Trump will take 48 states. No brainer.

There are polls that suggest otherwise.

[Pam]

Apparently he believed it enough to address it and not deny it could happen.

Or he felt he had to say that so he wouldn't get called a Putin puppet.

[Pam]

https://www.newsweek.com/jewish-grou...y-nazi-1488655

IfNotNow, an American Jewish progressive activist group, called on MSNBC host Chris Matthews to apologize for comparing Senator Bernie Sanders' Nevada caucuses victory to the Nazi invasion of France in 1940.

[Richard]

There are polls that suggest otherwise.

Those would not be the same polls that had Hillary winning by a landslide even minutes before the results were announced would they?

Anymore I trust polls about as much as I would an alligator offering a box of chocolates.

[jcole]

Pam, I don't want Bernie NOT to win, I just don't think he is the "annointed" candidate. He does make mistakes and isn't perfect. IF he becomes President, though, I will be quite happy.

Or he felt he had to say that so he wouldn't get called a Putin puppet.

[oladub]

He says the article was satire. I believe him because in real life he has never been accused of any impropriety or misconduct toward women unlike Trump, Bill Clinton, Weinstein etc. Bernie has a good record on women's rights while in office.

After Bernie spends trillions of dollars and the economy collapses, maybe he can attribute that to satire too. If meant to be a satire, Bernie failed. He should probably stick to his day job of distributing other people's money for votes.The Democratic establishment's knives are coming out to get Bernie now that he is doing well in the primary. Maybe that is why the old CNN article about his fantasies resurfaced. Today, CNN has an opinion article titled Bloomberg needs to take down Bernie. Chris Matthews is comparing Bernie's success with the Nazis overrunning France in 1940. James Carville "said he was “scared to death” of Sanders capturing the nomination and warned that the democratic socialist would turn the Democratic Party into an “ideological cult." Meanwhile Bernie is appointing the daughter of a Muslim Brotherhood affiliate as a state campaign co-chair. That ought to go over big in Middle-America. My bigger point though was that establishment democrats are coming after Bernie."When I went around to...working-class Americans across the country, if you have a 'D' next your name, it's like a Scarlet Letter. Like they do not [let] Democrats speak to them," Yang explained. "I was talking to truck drivers and waitresses and I was like, theoretically, aren't you who the Democratic Party should be speaking to and standing up for? But they thought the Democratic Party wanted nothing to do with them. And that, to me, is a real problem with the Democratic Party. You have to do some real soul-searching if working-class Americans is not their party." -Andrew Yang

[Richard]

You have to admit Bernie is really not that stupid.

Somebody posted a video of an event where they were handing out cash and claimed Trump was buying votes.

If he was,at least it was cash out of his pocket verses Bernie buying votes by promising cash out of everybody else’s pocket.

[bust]

"Right Trolls" and "Left Trolls" were the "meat of the agency’s trolling campaign."

Right Trolls behave like “bread-and-butter MAGA Americans, only all they do is talk about politics all day long.” Left Trolls often adopt the personae of Black Lives Matter activists, typically expressing support for Bernie Sanders and derision for Hillary Clinton, along with “clearly trying to divide the Democratic Party and lower voter turnout.”

And lookee who dominates this conversation.

If they're not Right and Left Trolls, they're second order, and good mimics.

It isn't a strike against Sanders if Russia has been impersonating his supporters to sow division. It explains a lot of the worst that's been posted in his name.

They aren't a fair representation of his supporters, and I resent when people characterize them as so.

Think at least a step ahead. It alienates the majority, and helps Trump win again.

[Richard]

^ Notice how you are trying to do the exact same thing you are accusing others of doing?

Have you been watching the primaries and paying attention to what is going on?

Trolls do not need to divide the Democratic Party,they already divided themselves,and they have no problem with sowing division within themselves.

You are already looking for blame to place on everybody else but where it should lay,it’s politics and it has not changed in 2000 years.

You think it is bad now wait until a candidate is chosen and he or she goes up against Trump.

It always amazes me how people people whine about others posting in a discussion,it makes it look like some only want to hear what they want to hear and try and spread discourse against those who disagree with them.

It is not Twitter,it is a discussion forum.

You should try having one without labeling everybody that you disagree with,otherwise somebody may mistake you for a troll.

[Zacha341]

A divided mess indeed! Ex. the last debate: Warren beating businesses upsides-the-head for making a profit under the veil of vilifying the rich. Yet they never mention the Zuckerbergs, etc. But her type will tax the local mom and pop restaurant out of business!

Only Mike Bloomberg or Sanders have a chance of coming out as front runners. And Sanders pushes too much of the antique communist [[eh' the democratic socialist re-package) con for the rich oligarchs to stomach. Socialism is fine until it finds a river to the rich.

Building most of it's infrastructure on the middle-class - garnering support by class envy while at the same time making sure to segregate themselves from the policy handed down from on high.

Trolls do not need to divide the Democratic Party, they already divided themselves, and they have no problem with sowing division within themselves.

[Pam]

My bigger point though was that establishment democrats are coming after Bernie.

Yes, I know that. Why do you care if you are voting for Trump?

[rb336]

A divided mess indeed! Ex. the last debate: Warren beating businesses upsides-the-head for making a profit under the veil of vilifying the rich. Yet they never mention the Zuckerbergs, etc. But her type will tax the local mom and pop restaurant out of business! .

Utter bullshit. Maybe you could actually read her extensive policy statements.

[Zacha341]

We'll see what IS utter ultimately, if these folks roll out what their agenda and ideology truly is.

I'd save absolutes such as 'utter' until then.

[bust]

Maybe you could actually read her extensive policy statements.

That's for sure. Otherwise, with all the um, mischaracterization going around it's easy to get a completely wrong idea.

[Canadian Visitor]

We'll see what IS utter ultimately, if these folks roll out what their agenda and ideology truly is.

I'd save absolutes such as 'utter' until then.

Can you dial it back a bit?

Its perfectly fine to have political preferences.

But suggesting a tax hike, even a large one would stifle business is simply wrong.

You could dislike the idea; but you can't change the facts.

Let's review the best countries for business according to USnews"

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-cou...iness-rankings

Notice something? Top 5, no United States to be found.

Now have another look; each of those countries has some variant of universal healthcare, and each has higher taxes overall than the United States.

All are highly developed, democratic, with a high standard of living.

If you don't like that particular list........fair enough, how about this one over at Forbes:

https://www.forbes.com/best-countrie...t/#tab:overall

U.S. can't be found in the top 10.........but look at all those higher tax places where mom and pop businesses are quite plentiful and successful, as is the case with big business too.

That doesn't mean you have to support Bernie Sanders or E. Warren.

It doesn't mean you have to support any, all, or some of their policy prescriptions.

But kindly leave out the apocalyptic rhetoric that is frankly a load of BS.

***

Lets now add one more thing; Sanders or Warren, as with any other candidate or past president will still have to get the bulk of their agenda, including any tax hikes through Congress.

Obama couldn't get a public option through a Democrat-controlled Congress.

Neither could Trump get the bill to kill Obamacare through a Republican controlled Congress.

Do you really think the full, unadulterated, unmoderated extreme is likely to pass?

Right, fat chance.

At most, one 'big move' gets done, and maybe 2-3 secondary policies; most of them phased-in.

That's in the event of a victory that no one is calling a forgone conclusion, long before the primaries are decided.

Let's keep discussion constructive; and ignore, rather than imitate Richard.

[Richard]

The one thing people like to overlook is that millionaires and billionaires have something that we do not,lots of high paid and really smart accountants.

Who writes and approves the tax code? Millionaires,so for every tax that is written there is a work around somewhere.

All of the candidates plans are based on a ten year plan,they will be there for 4 or maybe 8 and as we saw with Obama care and if it does not have no partisan support,then they push it with an presidential order that can be overturned by the next administration.

If somebody wants to challenge it in the courts it could drag out for years.

Is anybody actually totaling up the money required for all of these programs ?

Their healthcare plan alone 52 trillion over ten years,they cannot squeeze enough billionaires to pay for that let alone the hundreds of trillions for the other projects they say they can produce.

When it is implemented and the billionaires cannot cover it,who do you think is next in line?

They are politicians that play the game of asking for a Cadillac while preparing to receive a Pinto,I doubt any one of them actually believes that they can accomplish what they say and promise.

You cannot Do sweeping radical change in this country,the system is not designed for it,everything is like a block of ice and at best politics dictates chipping away at it for a long time in order to obtain the objectives.

Sometimes people act like they are going to get in power and boom the world as we know it changes overnight.

Bernie has been chipping away at it for over 40 years in politics,what has he accomplished?

Elizabeth warren has what 7 years?

She did stop some predatory lending practices that weeks later they figured out how to get around,she claims she held the banks accountable in the mortgage crisis,but everybody knows that is the last thing that happened was bank accountability.

It does not matter who you support and remember the president has limited power there is no president in the world outside of a dictatorship that could implement all the programs that they say they are.

Keep in mind Yang ran on UBI promising everybody a free $1000 per month just to exist.

He is gone,he could not even gain enough support for that,that says in the overall big picture the majority is not buying what they are selling.

[Richard]

Can you dial it back a bit?

Its perfectly fine to have political preferences.

But suggesting a tax hike, even a large one would stifle business is simply wrong.

You could dislike the idea; but you can't change the facts.

Let's review the best countries for business according to USnews"

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-cou...iness-rankings

Notice something? Top 5, no United States to be found.

Now have another look; each of those countries has some variant of universal healthcare, and each has higher taxes overall than the United States.

All are highly developed, democratic, with a high standard of living.

If you don't like that particular list........fair enough, how about this one over at Forbes:

https://www.forbes.com/best-countrie...t/#tab:overall

U.S. can't be found in the top 10.........but look at all those higher tax places where mom and pop businesses are quite plentiful and successful, as is the case with big business too.

That doesn't mean you have to support Bernie Sanders or E. Warren.

It doesn't mean you have to support any, all, or some of their policy prescriptions.

But kindly leave out the apocalyptic rhetoric that is frankly a load of BS.

***

Lets now add one more thing; Sanders or Warren, as with any other candidate or past president will still have to get the bulk of their agenda, including any tax hikes through Congress.

Obama couldn't get a public option through a Democrat-controlled Congress.

Neither could Trump get the bill to kill Obamacare through a Republican controlled Congress.

Do you really think the full, unadulterated, unmoderated extreme is likely to pass?

Right, fat chance.

At most, one 'big move' gets done, and maybe 2-3 secondary policies; most of them phased-in.

That's in the event of a victory that no one is calling a forgone conclusion, long before the primaries are decided.

Let's keep discussion constructive; and ignore, rather than imitate Richard.

You say “let’s “ like you have a frog in your pocket.

considering the current turmoil going on with your elected president in Canada it is clear that your input of candidates selection is weak at best.

You should just stick to what you guys seem to enjoy,trying to force your indigenous population to bow down to your whims.

Placing judgement on somebody else’s character does not define them,it defines you.

Funny thing is we pretty much said the same thing in our posts,the same thing that you suggested to ignore.

Feel free to call Warren and Sanders with your suggested tax proposal,let us know how it went.

How come months back you said you had placed me on ignore but yet here you are,nothing worse then when somebody says one thing and does another,I guess in Canada ones word is not their bond.

[ABetterDetroit]

After watching Bernie in several debates I get the impression that in his mind there is only the working class living paycheck to paycheck and the rest of us are all billionaires ready to be taxed. Nobody anywhere in the middle that he gives a shit about.

Not even acknowledging the middle is why he can’t beat Trump in my opinion. The middle is to important to winning the WH.

[Zacha341]

Yep. The reason the middle-class much is less mentioned is that's PRECISELY the class [[the aspiring bourgeoisie as the rhetoric goes) they're coming after tax-wise, and by way of stigma.

The middle-class as was before, is in reach. Easy reach tax and policy-wise. Low-handing fruit, ripe for plucking.

Pandering to the poor and maligned is that standard route: Garners votes and support quickly. That's the way of it, re. the bold-faced socialism under all of the new wraps.

Not even so much under wrap IMO. The young are only fooled as they don't know history; have not owned their own property, or a business, or worked long enough to see an ever dwindling net income.

Others are pulled in as they are told to go after them greedy rich who are identified as the sole reason for their plight [[withstanding what choices or free will was involved in ones specific status).

The core structure and buy-in is that the 'classes' are set against each other while the rulers set up their continued, exclusive, and RICH, hierarchies.

To fund such, short-term anyway, the new the definition of 'rich' heads ever downward to the middle-class, lower-middle class, etc.

Private property is seen as but another bauble of the 'eh rich. Redistribution of wealth is eh' er preached as retributive justice. Amen!

It seems to to a grand idea, sold as most REASONABLE and equitable. Initially.

It's an old story. Just tweaked for for digital age of streaming, twitter and instagram. The truly rich will increase and retain their wealth.

Including Sanders himself. He know this. He KNOWS history. He knows 'better'.

Though big business is concerned as they fear being regulated and constrained - especially if they don't act right!

After watching Bernie in several debates I get the impression that in his mind there is only the working class living paycheck to paycheck and the rest of us are all billionaires ready to be taxed. Nobody anywhere in the middle that he gives a shit about...

[rb336]

According to Career Builder, 78% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck. Seventy.Eight.Percent.
The FINRA Investor Education Foundation puts it at 55%. No matter how you slice it, that is the MAJORITY of Americans.

If you actually LOOK at Bernie's plans, he intends on increasing taxes for the top 1% and 10% - the multi-millionaires and billionaires. Nobody else. One of the options he has discussed includes raising the standard deduction and personal deductions, which would immensely help the Middle Class. M4A would also significantly help the Middle Class, however you happen to define it.

[oladub]

If you actually LOOK at Bernie's plans, he intends on increasing taxes for the top 1% and 10% - the multi-millionaires and billionaires. Nobody else.

The following applies to Bernie and other Dem. Presidential candidates in varying degrees. How does Bernie pay for his major plans? He not only goes after billionaires, he passes the costs of new regulations, green taxes, and business taxes onto all Americans. Democrats correctly pointed out that Trump's new import taxes were passed on to American consumers. Raising corporate taxes of any sort does the same. The difference is that import taxes only tax corporations profiting from cheaper overseas labor while general taxes on corporations hiring American labor incentivize those corporations to import more goods using cheaper overseas labor.

Billionaires will protect their wealth by investing it overseas, or whatever it takes, to keep their wealth out of Bernie's reach. Step one, they will support Bloomberg or Hillary and/or Trump.