Welcome to Bernie/Independent/Third Party Land

**Richard** · February-20-20, 09:35 AM

That was a brutal debate and not much different then some of ours.

The majority want to put an immediate ban on fracking.

So they shut down the coal fired plants and switched to natural gas because it is cheaper currently.

It is cheaper and for the first time we are not dependent on foreign energy,it is cheaper because of fracking.

What happens to people’s electric bills when the fuel source becomes dependent on foreign pricing controls?

A coal fired plant had weeks of coal in reserves that was not subject to market fluctuations in case of a disruption in supply,a natural gas fired plant is direct supply.Turn off the valve and you are done.

So day one they ban fracking,we then switch to importing natural gas,the foreign suppliers say,you have no choice,the price is now xxx,what choice do we have?

Immediate ban ban on fracking in order to switch to alternative energy,what is this alternative energy source that they already have established and ready to put in place without disruption of service?

France has committed to shutting down its nuclear power plants that provide 70% of the power to the country,and has already started,in order to switch over to green energy.

Is there going to be a point in time when the governments and green supporters are going to clue us on how they plan on supplying energy to the population outside of do not worry it will be green and save the planet?

The one thing they did agree on up there on the debate stage is that nobody agrees with each other’s plan.

On a side note,I was surprised that Bernie has pretty much told AOC to shut up and sit down when it comes to her new green deal,that has to hurt coming from her mentor and she came up with it thinking it would please him.

They all pretty much agreed to the “vote” as a determination but they left the door open because as we know some view the “vote” is open to the individuals interpretation.

Bernie and company views the “ vote “ as in the popular vote where some of the others view the “vote” as the amount of electoral votes that determines the winner.

But at the end of the day it will be the DNC that makes the determination and that is subject to change on a daily basis.

**Pam** · February-20-20, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by Johnnny5

If Bernie has a clear lead, but the Democrats still choose someone else this July it's over for them. Not just the hope that they might reclaim the White House, but they might even end up losing the House as well. Especially if they end up allowing Bloomberg to buy it. In that case there's going to be very little excitement over replacing one old cantankerous billionaire with an even older and richer one.

Exactly right. This is what happened last time. Everyone didn't want to "fall in line" behind a rigged process.

**Jimaz** · February-21-20, 09:17 PM

From a triumphant optimist:
Dick Van Dyke Endorses Bernie Sanders for President

“He never has changed his attack because of pressure from the outside or when he felt the wind was blowing another way. He stuck with who he is and what he believes."

— Dick Van Dyke

BernieSanders.com

**Richard** · February-21-20, 09:39 PM

^ as long as he believes it,the trick is to convince millions of voters to believe it also.

**oladub** · February-21-20, 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by Jimaz

From a triumphant optimist:
Dick Van Dyke Endorses Bernie Sanders for President

“He never has changed his attack because of pressure from the outside or when he felt the wind was blowing another way. He stuck with who he is and what he believes."

— Dick Van Dyke

BernieSanders.com

Bernie buckled in 2010. He was the main Senate sponsor of the 2010 Audit the Fed Bill. "Bernie Sanders has sold out and sided with [Sen.] Chris Dodd to gut Audit the Fed in the Senate. His 'compromise' is what the administration and banking interests want." -Ron Paul, the main House sponsor of the Audit the Fed bill.

Bernie has been swayed by the wind regarding immigration. He wasn't always the open borders guy he is now. He used to prioritize American workers.

"There is no question we need to strengthen our borders to protect national security and prevent illegal immigration," Senator Bernie Sanders said. "We must hold employers accountable, and establish a path to citizenship for 12 million people already in the United States. But at a time when the middle class is shrinking, I must oppose bringing in hundreds of thousands more workers into the United States who would lower wages and hurt American workers." -Bernie, June 7, 2007

**Pam** · February-22-20, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by oladub

Bernie buckled in 2010. He was the main Senate sponsor of the 2010 Audit the Fed Bill. "Bernie Sanders has sold out and sided with [Sen.] Chris Dodd to gut Audit the Fed in the Senate. His 'compromise' is what the administration and banking interests want." -Ron Paul, the main House sponsor of the Audit the Fed bill.

Bernie has been swayed by the wind regarding immigration. He wasn't always the open borders guy he is now. He used to prioritize American workers.

"There is no question we need to strengthen our borders to protect national security and prevent illegal immigration," Senator Bernie Sanders said. "We must hold employers accountable, and establish a path to citizenship for 12 million people already in the United States. But at a time when the middle class is shrinking, I must oppose bringing in hundreds of thousands more workers into the United States who would lower wages and hurt American workers." -Bernie, June 7, 2007

This is the immigration info. from his website. I don't see any reference to "open borders".

https://berniesanders.com/issues/wel...e-america-all/

**jcole** · February-22-20, 09:23 AM

Well, this is certainly weird and upsetting. Not at all saying it's Bernie's fault at all, just that it's problematic

U.S. officials have told Sen. Bernie Sanders that Russia is attempting to help his presidential campaign as part of an effort to interfere with the Democratic contest, according to people familiar with the matter.President Trump and lawmakers on Capitol Hill also have been informed about the Russian assistance to the Vermont senator, those people said, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive intelligence.

It is not clear what form that Russian assistance has taken. U.S. prosecutors found a Russian effort in 2016 to use social media to boost Sanders’s campaign against Hillary Clinton, part of a broader effort to hurt Clinton, sow dissension in the American electorate and ultimately help elect Donald Trump.

“I don’t care, frankly, who [Russian President Vladimir] Putin wants to be president,” Sanders said in a statement. “My message to Putin is clear: Stay out of American elections, and as president I will make sure that you do.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...a77_story.html

**bust** · February-22-20, 10:11 AM

Yes, let's all be very careful what we believe, especially from untrustworthy sources, and especially on social media.

Social media has been flooded by propaganda and disinformation by the Russian Internet Agency -- the internet propaganda arm of the Kremlin. And even top government officials, tv and radio commentators, the president and his children have been sharing it.

The propagandists have even taken over real social media accounts people no longer use to make the propaganda look more like it comes from real Americans.

Researchers at Clemson collected and studied several million examples. They conclude the goal was to "distract, divide, and demoralize" Americans in a form of political war.

Fivethirtyeight summarizes the research and the data. From the article...

"Right Trolls" and "Left Trolls" were the "meat of the agency’s trolling campaign."

Right Trolls behave like “bread-and-butter MAGA Americans, only all they do is talk about politics all day long.” Left Trolls often adopt the personae of Black Lives Matter activists, typically expressing support for Bernie Sanders and derision for Hillary Clinton, along with “clearly trying to divide the Democratic Party and lower voter turnout.”

This war may or may not have had an effect on the 2016 election, but it certainly wreaked havoc.

The researchers emphasized that the Russian disinformation and discord campaign on Twitter extends well beyond even that.

“There were more tweets in the year after the election than there were in the year before the election. I want to shout this from the rooftops. This is not just an election thing. It’s a continuing intervention in the political conversation in America.”

“They are trying to divide our country.”

**oladub** · February-22-20, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by Pam

This is the immigration info. from his website. I don't see any reference to "open borders".

https://berniesanders.com/issues/wel...e-america-all/

I'm not singling Bernie out. Tulsi Gabbard is only Democratic presidential candidate who has said anything about enforcing a border. All other Democratic candidates support something approaching an open border. My point was that Bernie has waffled "because of pressure from the outside or when he felt the wind was blowing another way" [[post 428). De facto open borders are now part of the Democratic narrative. Bernie is still my second favorite Democratic candidate though, that's not saying much, because he is relatively honest and voted agains the Iraq war.

His website pretty much makes my point with its incentives to keep 11m [[the actual number might be 22M) illegal aliens in the U.S. indefinitely, support DACA, make it easier to claim one is fleeing from any country with gang or domestic violence, opens public housing to families that include illegal aliens, allow illegal aliens who have lived in the U.S. for 5 or more years to be free of threats of deportation, and Bernie says, "We must decouple local law enforcement and [[illegal) immingration". It gets worse. Thank you for providing the link. It was instructive that Bernie is much worse than I thought regarding open borders and incentivizing massive legal and illegal immigration to the United States.

""This is a show of hands question and hold them up so people can see. Raise your hand if your government [[health care) plan would provide coverage for undocumented immigrants."

Oh look, there is Bernie, right in the middle, raising his hand to further incentivize illegal immigration. Free housing and medical care. How can you beat that?

Bernie leads his party to open borders Even Pat Buchanen can't make this point as well as Bernie's own website.

As U.S. president, Sanders has pledged to "break up" the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement [[ICE) and Customs and Border Protection [[CBP) agencies

Senator Bernie Sanders [[D., Vt.) on [[1/20/20) said he may be open to demolishing sections of the U.S.–Mexico border wall, as well as halting 99 percent of deportations.

**Pam** · February-22-20, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by oladub

I'm not singling Bernie out. Tulsi Gabbard is only Democratic presidential candidate who has said anything about enforcing a border. All other Democratic candidates support something approaching an open border. My point was that Bernie has waffled "because of pressure from the outside or when he felt the wind was blowing another way" [[post 428). De facto open borders are now part of the Democratic narrative. Bernie is still my second favorite Democratic candidate though, that's not saying much, because he is relatively honest and voted agains the Iraq war.

His website pretty much makes my point with its incentives to keep 11m [[the actual number might be 22M) illegal aliens in the U.S. indefinitely, support DACA, make it easier to claim one is fleeing from any country with gang or domestic violence, opens public housing to families that include illegal aliens, allow illegal aliens who have lived in the U.S. for 5 or more years to be free of threats of deportation, and Bernie says, "We must decouple local law enforcement and [[illegal) immingration". It gets worse. Thank you for providing the link. It was instructive that Bernie is much worse than I thought regarding open borders and incentivizing massive legal and illegal immigration to the United States.

""This is a show of hands question and hold them up so people can see. Raise your hand if your government [[health care) plan would provide coverage for undocumented immigrants."

Oh look, there is Bernie, right in the middle, raising his hand to further incentivize illegal immigration. Free housing and medical care. How can you beat that?

Bernie leads his party to open borders Even Pat Buchanen can't make this point as well as Bernie's own website.

As U.S. president, Sanders has pledged to "break up" the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement [[ICE) and Customs and Border Protection [[CBP) agencies

Senator Bernie Sanders [[D., Vt.) on [[1/20/20) said he may be open to demolishing sections of the U.S.–Mexico border wall, as well as halting 99 percent of deportations.

Ok, he's for fewer restrictions than you would like. To me "open borders" would mean no restrictions at all, and I don't think he's saying that.

**Pam** · February-22-20, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by jcole

Well, this is certainly weird and upsetting. Not at all saying it's Bernie's fault at all, just that it's problematic

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...a77_story.html

"Anonymous sources", sure that's believable. Just another attempt to smear and discredit Bernie and his success. It's the old "outside agitators" crap. Bernie couldn't possibly be popular because real Americans actually support him, it must be Russia's fault. Come on.

**Pam** · February-22-20, 07:28 PM

Looks like Bernie is winning in Nevada.

https://www.cnn.com/election/2020/state/nevada

**Richard** · February-22-20, 07:56 PM

^ it reads down in the right corner 4% precincts reporting.

The next update happens in 10 seconds,every ten seconds it just resets.

I read another article that had polls from 5 different newspapers,it was funny they had predicted Bernie winning in one while the next one he was losing,polls anymore are about as reliable as a Ford.

**Richard** · February-22-20, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by Pam

"Anonymous sources", sure that's believable. Just another attempt to smear and discredit Bernie and his success. It's the old "outside agitators" crap. Bernie couldn't possibly be popular because real Americans actually support him, it must be Russia's fault. Come on.

Thats okay,if he wins we can impeach him over Russian collusion,all we really need is for an unverified anonymous source for it to become instant fact,nice of the Dems to teach the republicans that little trick and open the door.

**Zacha341** · February-22-20, 08:38 PM

Whew. I'm just relieved...

... that the rumor of Sanders taxing those making over $29,000 at over 50% was a hoax:

Did Sanders Propose Raising Taxes to 52% on Incomes Over $29,000?

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/sa...an-52-percent/

However, per all of his grand promises taxing increases will have to be somewhat higher, and ever closer towards the struggling middle-class!

While the rich oligarch on both sides continue in their largess.

**313WX** · February-22-20, 08:42 PM

CNN, MSNBC and ABC have all declared Bernie the winner of Nevada.

**Jimaz** · February-22-20, 08:58 PM

Birdie Sanders in Portland four years ago.

Was that what will have become prophecy?

BernieSanders.com

**oladub** · February-22-20, 09:46 PM

Originally Posted by Pam

Ok, he's for fewer restrictions than you would like. To me "open borders" would mean no restrictions at all, and I don't think he's saying that.

'Anarchism' is more correct term than 'libertarianism' with regard to Bernie's stance on nearly unfettered immigration. Anarchy is to libertarianism as authoritarianism is to social democracy.

Bernie is for fewer restrictions for foreigners if that's what you mean. They can have free medical care, free housing, etc. if they cross the border or overstay their visas. It's their call. That's good or bad depending on whether one prioritizes foreigners or not. Maybe not so good for Americans who get stuck with the bills though.

As recently as 2015 Bernie sided with American workers, "There is a reason why Wall Street and all of corporate America likes immigration reform, and it is not, in my view, that they’re staying up nights worrying about undocumented workers in this country. What I think they are interested in is seeing a process by which we can bring low-wage labor of all levels into this country to depress wages for Americans, and I strongly disagree with that.” -Bernie 2015

He buckled just like he did regarding auditing the Federal Reserve.

Different topic: In 2016, CNN dug up some things Bernie wrote about in 1969. Maybe CNN wasn't on Bernie's side. From his essay Man and Woman: "A man goes home and masturbates his typical fantasy. A woman on her knees, a woman tied up, a woman abused," "A woman enjoys intercourse with her man -- as she fantasizes being raped by 3 men simultaneously."
-Bernie Sanders, 1969

**Pam** · February-23-20, 05:54 AM

Oladub- that essay was already talked about last election. I'm satisfied with the explanation.

https://www.npr.org/sections/itsallp...ssay-explained

Bernie still sides with American workers.

https://berniesanders.com/issues/workplace-democracy/

**jcole** · February-23-20, 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by Pam

"Anonymous sources", sure that's believable. Just another attempt to smear and discredit Bernie and his success. It's the old "outside agitators" crap. Bernie couldn't possibly be popular because real Americans actually support him, it must be Russia's fault. Come on.

Bernie acknowledges being briefed.

Washington [[CNN)Sen. Bernie Sanders said Friday that his campaign was briefed about Russian efforts to help his presidential campaign, intensifying concerns about the Kremlin's role in the US presidential race.It remains unclear how Russia is attempting to help Sanders, according to The Washington Post, which first reported the effort. The revelation comes a day after it was reported that the US intelligence community believes Moscow is taking steps to help President Donald Trump win and at a time when Sanders is emerging as the Democratic front-runner.
Speaking to reporters in Bakersfield, California, Friday afternoon, Sanders confirmed that his campaign was briefed about the Kremlin's efforts about a month ago and condemned Russia's attempts to interfere in US elections.
"It was not clear what role they're going to play. We were told that Russia, maybe other countries, are going to get involved in this campaign, and look, here's the message to Russia: stay out of American elections," Sanders said.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/21/polit...nce/index.html

**Honky Tonk** · February-23-20, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by jcole

Bernie acknowledges being briefed.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/21/polit...nce/index.html

Excellent. Now, if elected, the Democrats can spend their time trying to impeach him for "colluding with the Russians". "Four more years!"

**leapfrog** · February-23-20, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Excellent. Now, if elected, the Democrats can spend their time trying to impeach him for "colluding with the Russians". "Four more years!"

If there was actual collusion on the part of the Sanders campaign [[like we saw with the Trump campaign), then an impeachment investigation may be appropriate. Fortunately for him, he can behave as he sees fit as long as he has a Democrat controlled Senate to give him his "get out of jail free card" - We have the Republicans to thank for opening the door on THAT.

**Richard** · February-23-20, 09:38 AM

Sanders confirmed that his campaign was briefed about the Kremlin's efforts about a month ago and condemned Russia's attempts to interfere in US elections.
"It was not clear what role they're going to play. We were told that Russia, maybe other countries, are going to get involved in this campaign, and look, here's the message to Russia: stay out of American elections," Sanders said.

Not a Bernie fan but I agree with the whole not clear on the role aspect.

A classified intelligence meeting is held and within minutes that information was leaked to the public before their findings were presented to the president.

Russia has been meddling in everybody’s elections across the world for over 50 years,no surprise there.

The highly touted intelligence Community with its thousands of employees has had since 2015 to get a grip on Russia interference in elections and its methods,maybe they should have been doing their job instead of trying to overthrow a duly elected president.

I think it is wrong for the House to be leaking classified information to the public based strictly on something that everybody already knows but unable to do the actual job that they are tasked to do,that is intentionally spreading discourse based on no facts.

The House has already proven that you do not actually have to have any proof to back up claims,you just have to convince people to believe they are right.

Bernie doing well in 3 small primaries,super Tuesday is really the factor,it is still early in the process and is still no indication of if he can actually beat Trump.

Bernie standing up for the working man just stands to reason,he needs them to pay for his programs.

**oladub** · February-23-20, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by Pam

Oladub- that essay was already talked about last election. I'm satisfied with the explanation.
https://www.npr.org/sections/itsallp...ssay-explained

Sorry, politics doesn't work like that. Didn't we recently witness a witch hunt regarding a Supreme Court nominee based on what one woman claimed he did in a place and time she can't remember? You might be satisfied but young Bernie sounded like he was having incel fantasies. He didn't seem to think much of the nuclear family either. "Free love' was in vogue in those days. At least Obama was smart enough to hide his college records and other earlier footprints. If a photo of non-liberals shows up of them wearing blackface or there is a record of some racist thing they said when they were young, it messes up their careers. Bernie isn't off the hook for similarly saying goofy things just because of an apologist NPR article.

Originally Posted by Pam

Bernie still sides with American workers.
https://berniesanders.com/issues/workplace-democracy/

Bernie might believe that he sides with American workers. I suspect his intentions are good. The problem is that he is applying a 1950 labor template to 2020. Labor unions thrive when there is a shortage of labor because owners don't have much choice except to negotiate with labor if there is no cheaper alternative supply of labor. Letting the largest percentage of foreign born population into the U.S. in a hundred years, including 11-22M illegals, however, has flooded the labor market suppressing wages. Bernie is partly responsible. Meatpackers and roofers, for instance, have replaced their American union labor forces with cheaper non-union immigrant labor. Bernie acknowledged that in 2007 and 2015 but he sold out to be part of the contemporary Democratic Party and U.S. Chamber of Commerce narrative. I don't think Bernie is a bad person but his Trotskyite idealism isn't workable.

**Pam** · February-23-20, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by oladub

Sorry, politics doesn't work like that. Didn't we recently witness a witch hunt regarding a Supreme Court nominee based on what one woman claimed he did in a place and time she can't remember? You might be satisfied but young Bernie sounded like he was having incel fantasies. He didn't seem to think much of the nuclear family either. "Free love' was in vogue in those days. At least Obama was smart enough to hide his college records and other earlier footprints. If a photo of non-liberals shows up of them wearing blackface or there is a record of some racist thing they said when they were young, it messes up their careers. Bernie isn't off the hook for similarly saying goofy things just because of an apologist NPR article.

He says the article was satire. I believe him because in real life he has never been accused of any impropriety or misconduct toward women unlike Trump, Bill Clinton, Weinstein etc. Bernie has a good record on women's rights while in office.