Amazon Looking for a new HQ - Detroit-Windsor Bid Rejected

[Richard]

^ so where did all of the transplants come from in Charlotte,Florida,Texas,Nevada,Nashville?

If all of those “richest cities” had the desired quality of life and investment in people,they would have had no reason to leave.

They are becoming victims of their own success and the same scenario that happened in Detroit is playing out there.

As more of the middle class workers leave it becomes a city of two incomes and with nobody left it lays on the corporations to pick up the tab,until it becomes not cost effective for them to do so,so then they leave.

It is not reinventing the wheel in economics,it is changing politics,and it is easy to see being played out.

Detroits changing and responsible policies are putting it on firm ground for a stronger future while we see other cities are the ones bleeding population and starting their downside,they know it,if they did not then they would not be looking at the last resort of looking at penalizing the very people that brought them success in the first place.

Silicone Valley was based on hardware and the shift is to software and programming,no need for a 500,000 sqft warehouse manufacturing facilities,Japan already has that locked down.

Before the hurricanes Charlotte was in the same shape as Detroit 10 years ago,you could buy converted flop house downtown mansions for $25,000 that now are millions,when they got hit by the hurricane the fed money poured in and people then had the funds to rebuild,they did not have the money for transit etc to make it a desirable place to live.

[Bham1982]

If all of those “richest cities” had the desired quality of life and investment in people,they would have had no reason to leave.

That makes zero sense. Throughout the history of humanity, the richest areas have had net domestic outmigration, obviously. Places that attract the best and brightest make little sense for average folks.

And if they had "better quality of life and investment in people" they would be even more expensive and unattainable for average people.

[Towne Cluber]

Detroit's greatest challenges are the product of more right-wing policies.

Crappy to absent transit, lots of tiny municipal fiefdoms that read a 'Eff you, I've got mine' [[though most of them don't). Over policing, and under investing in people and quality of life.

Brutally bad take. Talk about diminishing yourself as a poster, clearly motivated both by ideology and hatred at a completely irrational level, and so blind to logic that the post itself isn't merely ridiculous but suggests its likely not possible to take any of your posts seriously.

I’ve had personal meetings with a number of Detroit “leaders”. Lots of “eff you, I’ve got mine” attitude behind the scenes. All Democrats with their picture with President Obama on the wall of their office.

Detroit Police “over policing” is laughable. Record long response time wait, fudging crime stats, dangerously low staffing levels, property crime practically not enforced, record shootings, incredibly high murder rate, and reckless driving is the norm.

[iheartthed]

Dear Corazon, I hear this logic advanced. Don't get it. Are you suggesting that liberal policies created NYC and SF economic success? Feels other way around to me. Economic success created fertile ground for progressive dreams.

No... if you follow the conversation, you'll see that I'm responding to the person that claimed leftist policies would make cities into economic failures. SF has always been far to the left of the political center of this country. NYC has also usually been quite a bit to the left of the political center, particularly during the 20th and 21st century.

I'll go further. Look at Detroit. Forced integration of schools was a progressive policy that was the single biggest cause of urban decline in Detroit.

Oh the horror. Destroying one of the world's greatest cities was a totally appropriate response to having to send white kids to school with black kids.

[Wesley Mouch]

No... if you follow the conversation, you'll see that I'm responding to the person that claimed leftist policies would make cities into economic failures. SF has always been far to the left of the political center of this country. NYC has also usually been quite a bit to the left of the political center, particularly during the 20th and 21st century.

K, I'm with you. Leftist policies haven't destroyed NYC and SF. Both will survive them. Survive. They'll survive rent control [[by making NYC unaffordable for most). They'll survive increased homelessness [[pour money on it). They'll survive minimum wage [[by leaving black youth our of employment in favor of experienced white kids). And they'll survive. So we agree on the result -- but probably not on the diagnosis or degree of pain being suffered by the most vulnerable,

Oh the horror. Destroying one of the world's greatest cities was a totally appropriate response to having to send white kids to school with black kids.

Whites who fled Detroit did not destroy Detroit. They fled. The city died of its own wounds.

Tell someone their kids were not going to go to their neighborhood school, but to a school miles away -- that was enough to say 'we're outta here'. Was racism the reason they left. Sure, in part. But bigger factor was separating parents and kids in pursuit of a social good rather than good education.

Yes, flight was a totally appropriate response. Sorry about your dead city. That was the fault of your progressive policy. [[btw, I think forced integration might have worked if it were cross-district.)

[O3H]

A community is better off with plenty of demographic diversity.
It is economically better off due to the cultural and ethnic mix of people.

[iheartthed]

Whites who fled Detroit did not destroy Detroit. They fled. The city died of its own wounds.

Tell someone their kids were not going to go to their neighborhood school, but to a school miles away -- that was enough to say 'we're outta here'. Was racism the reason they left. Sure, in part. But bigger factor was separating parents and kids in pursuit of a social good rather than good education.

Yes, flight was a totally appropriate response. Sorry about your dead city. That was the fault of your progressive policy. [[btw, I think forced integration might have worked if it were cross-district.)

Ah, yes. While we're talking about who destroyed Detroit, I'm sure you're well aware that Detroit's population nosedive began under Republican Mayor Albert Cobo in the 1950s. The city was declining in population for almost two decades before the busing controversies of the 1970s. But nice try.

[Worldsgreatest]

Destroyed? Can we tone down the hyperbole?

[Worldsgreatest]

Whites who fled Detroit did not destroy Detroit. They fled. The city died of its own wounds.

Tell someone their kids were not going to go to their neighborhood school, but to a school miles away -- that was enough to say 'we're outta here'. Was racism the reason they left. Sure, in part. But bigger factor was separating parents and kids in pursuit of a social good rather than good education.

Yes, flight was a totally appropriate response. Sorry about your dead city. That was the fault of your progressive policy. [[btw, I think forced integration might have worked if it were cross-district.)

What are you even talking about? WHO separated parents and kids? You sound insane.

This thread should be closed as it's turning into a black hole. the Amazon pageant is over. it was a scam and everyone lost but Amazon.

[iheartthed]

Destroyed? Can we tone down the hyperbole?

Yes, problematic word choice on my part. Attempting to destroy is better.

[stasu1213]

Ah, yes. While we're talking about who destroyed Detroit, I'm sure you're well aware that Detroit's population nosedive began under Republican Mayor Albert Cobo in the 1950s. The city was declining in population for almost two decades before the busing controversies of the 1970s. But nice try.

The neighborhoods in Detroit were destroyed by slumlords, section 8 tenants renting houses, dope dealers, and left winged elected officials in city government and the school system. A few brand new schools were built in the 1990s only to be closed and neglected 10 years later. Many schools started to close in the neighborhoods in the late 90s and early 2000s while their were still many children living in those communities that the closed schools were in. The reason; poor testing results. This was according to those on the school board including Otis Mathis and others whom had left new unused school books in warehouses while children were going home without books to study and do their homeworks from. Many of these academies had opened which were probably cash cows to those in charge of these academies while the reading rates and test score of the children attending them were still low probably lower than they were in the regular public schools.

[Canadian Visitor]

Brutally bad take. Talk about diminishing yourself as a poster, clearly motivated both by ideology and hatred at a completely irrational level, and so blind to logic that the post itself isn't merely ridiculous but suggests its likely not possible to take any of your posts seriously.

I have no idea why you want to behave hatefully towards me, lie about what I said and post complete drivel.

I sincerely ask you to delete the post and apologize as it was immoral of you to lie and misrepresent both myself and my post.

At NO point did I show any hatred for anyone or anything.

You completely made that up.

Nor do I fit into some neat ideological box, I'm certainly not Republican or Democrat.

But neither would I fit the label of Conservative or Liberal as you would think of it.

I'm a deficit hawk, a champion of efficiency and have a strong distaste for identity politics.

On the other hand, I favour single-payer healthcare, a clean environment and no time whatever for organized religion.

What I did was rebut a nonsensical argument that 'Liberal' policies somehow cause the downfall of anything.

Its simply a fact that most desirable cities are places that have a more 'liberal' bent in broad terms.

That isn't partisan, its factual.

There is nothing I said that was inaccurate in any way.

Detroit's misfortunes have many causes, but when one fairly apprises what would make people have a negative impression of the place that would compound challenges that were already being experienced [[were going back decades here).......you would think racism, police violence, under investment in government services and quality of life, including transit, roads, public realm, parks and schools.

What would you consider to be investing in the above if not 'Liberal'?

Why would the money not be available to Detroit to invest in these things, "White Flight" and segregationist suburban areas.

It is what it is.

[Towne Cluber]

It is immoral and hateful of you to lecture Detroiters that a big part of the city’s problems are a result of “over-policing”. I would also tread lightly in gloating about your distaste of religion to the residents of a largely African-American city.

[Canadian Visitor]

It is immoral and hateful of you to lecture Detroiters that a big part of the city’s problems are a result of “over-policing”. I would also tread lightly in gloating about your distaste of religion to the residents of a largely African-American city.

At no point did I gloat.

At no point was I hateful in any way, shape of form.

Just stop making a fool of yourself by lying about what I'm saying constantly.

I have no idea what could motivate you to willfully misrepresent my remarks, when they are in print, clear for all to see, and clear as day your are lying.

[Wesley Mouch]

What are you even talking about? WHO separated parents and kids? You sound insane.

The answer is that DPS under court order separated parents and kids.

Before bussing, kids went to their local school.

At the start of DPS integration-bussing, I believe the ratio was about 70% black / 30% white [[pardon simplistic labels).

But the schools I think were dramatically de facto segregated. Mostly, the schools far west and east were majority white, and the rest majority black. [[Again, pardon generalization.)

To get each school to match the overall ratio, you can estimate that 70% of the white students would need to be bussed and distributed to majority black schools. And about 30% of the black students in majority black schools would have to be bussed out to the majority white schools east & west.

That's the math.

And that is sending kids far from home for education in pursuit of a social goal.

Again... 30% of black students and 70% of white students would need to have been bussed around and 'torn' from their neighborhood school.

Even the most ardent progressive parents could reasonably have felt that sending their kid to an 'inner city' school might not been in their child's best interest. Most progressives would at that time also have believed that inner-city DPS schools were not as 'good' as the east/west schools. That was also a motivation for bussing. Seeking equal quality schools throughout the region.

This thread should be closed as it's turning into a black hole. the Amazon pageant is over. it was a scam and everyone lost but Amazon.

Agreed that we've drifted. But isn't is great that sometimes good comes from serendipity? I am not for de-platforming. All you need to do is avert your glaze.

And agreed that 'destroy' was a little too much -- although most of the rest of the world would feel 'destroy' was about right. In many ways, it might not even be hyperbolic. A downtown filled with abandoned skyscrapers? Destroyed? I retract my first sentence this paragraph. Destroyed was the right word. Ever look at those pictures of St. Cyril or of Wilbur Wright DPS trade school? Destroyed!

So back to Amazon... nobody forced NYC/NYS to make that offer. It was 100% voluntary on their part. They could have just not responded.

[Towne Cluber]

At no point did I gloat.

At no point was I hateful in any way, shape of form.

Just stop making a fool of yourself by lying about what I'm saying constantly.

I have no idea what could motivate you to willfully misrepresent my remarks, when they are in print, clear for all to see, and clear as day your are lying.

You did the exact same thing [[from the other end of the ideological spectrum) that the other guy was doing [[or not doing). You’re clearly too sanctimonious to be rational, much less have an honest discussion. Thanks for parachuting in to Detroit and knowing more than its residents while pissing on our heads and telling us it’s raining.

[Richard]

A community is better off with plenty of demographic diversity.
It is economically better off due to the cultural and ethnic mix of people.

Yes but even more so the ability to handle income diversity,what we are now seeing in the “richest cities” and even now Pittsburgh is a reversal of sorts.

Where the high income can afford to live in the city the lower incomes are being pushed to the suburbs,before they had to travel to the burbs for work now it is traveling to the city to work.

This whole Amazon thing is kinda a case study of sorts that kinda creates some myths.

It was automatically figured that the city offering the most incentives would better their odds.

But $750 million won out over 7 billion.

Everybody is on a we must educate our population for tech,but yet tech is settling anywhere because opportunities follow it.

So in the end it really seems like the best way for a city to attract new residents and buisnesses is to concentrate on doing the best that they can with the current residents first,because they will ask for and expect no more then anybody locating there would.

That would seem to include all levels of income from the tire changers all the way up to the CEOs that diversity would be all inclusive.

The thing is citys like NYC and California can never go back without falling first,Detroit fell and is getting back up with the ability to push the reset button and do it different this time,yes it paid a horrible price for that,but at this point it does not matter what happened,you cannot change the past and there is no progress in beating somebody up over it.

Learn from it,move forward while not repeating the same mistakes.

[Richard]

So back to Amazon... nobody forced NYC/NYS to make that offer. It was 100% voluntary on their part. They could have just not responded.

You make the distinction NYC/NYS Which is like California,the major urban centers are one thing while the rest of the state is another.

They are both like two states within one state with very different views.

The state wanted it,the mayor of NYC wanted it,but it dropped down to the local representatives that did not want it,to me anyways for his personal reasons and not looking at the bigger picture.

[Canadian Visitor]

You did the exact same thing [[from the other end of the ideological spectrum) that the other guy was doing [[or not doing). You’re clearly too sanctimonious to be rational, much less have an honest discussion. Thanks for parachuting in to Detroit and knowing more than its residents while pissing on our heads and telling us it’s raining.

I will repeat, my posts above are there for all to see, and I did/said no such thing in any way.

I have no idea what has possessed you to see the world in such an upside down way.

I have nothing against Detroit or her people. I post respectfully unless someone disrespects me directly.

I correct that which is wrong, not that which I disagree with.

You seem to have confused those two terms and a good deal more and impugn my character for no reason whatever.

That you can be so possessed of a hatred and mistrust of a human being has never met, nor insulted you [[previously) is beyond me.

Perhaps you should see psychiatric help.

[Towne Cluber]

I will repeat, my posts above are there for all to see, and I did/said no such thing in any way.

I have no idea what has possessed you to see the world in such an upside down way.

I have nothing against Detroit or her people. I post respectfully unless someone disrespects me directly.

I correct that which is wrong, not that which I disagree with.

You seem to have confused those two terms and a good deal more and impugn my character for no reason whatever.

That you can be so possessed of a hatred and mistrust of a human being has never met, nor insulted you [[previously) is beyond me.

Perhaps you should see psychiatric help.

You forgot to mention that you’re not racist and you have black friends.

[Canadian Visitor]

You forgot to mention that you’re not racist and you have black friends.

WTF???

Seriously?

Where did that come from?

You are completely insane!

[Wesley Mouch]

You make the distinction NYC/NYS Which is like California,the major urban centers are one thing while the rest of the state is another.

They are both like two states within one state with very different views.

True, to be sure. However as the state legislature is now all D in NY... the difference isn't so clear. Except that they both are competing for power and control of the spigots of political goo.

The state wanted it,the mayor of NYC wanted it,but it dropped down to the local representatives that did not want it,to me anyways for his personal reasons and not looking at the bigger picture.

Before the withdrawal, everyone was singing the same song. All these 'local reps' were singing the praises of the deal.

Its also not clear to me that the 'local reps' truly represent the common man here. Yes, there is an anti-tax-break crowd. But to me the real resistance was a) where's my graft/power/control, and 2) AOC is cute [[and Bernie is lovable) and everyone thinks she's [[and he's) the future -- and she [[he) hates corporations -- so I'm with the popular girl [[boy).

[Towne Cluber]

WTF???

Seriously?

Where did that come from?

You are completely insane!

You think very highly of yourself. Tell us more...

[Richard]

If anybody is bored,here is a economic impact study in relation to Amazon and NYC.

http://demause.net/wp/wp-content/upl...ort_Amazon.pdf

It would be interesting to see one from Detroit.

They are settling in VA which offered a smaller incentives package which actually reflected the difference in taxes verses NYC.

Massive difference long term just based on tax obligations.

Basically it seems as though the cities that were offering the highest incentive packages were doing so in order to offset and compete against the lower tax rate cities.

[O3H]

Re -incarnation is alive and well on this thread

As it works its way toward an eventual escape from the cycle of birth, death and rebirth on a path to purity and salvation.

Where is salvation brother.......we all pray for an end to the path