Amazon Looking for a new HQ - Detroit-Windsor Bid Rejected

[aj3647]

lol at comparing Ann Arbor to Baltimore.

Please spare me. Ann Arbor is a part of Metro Detroit. I don't care what you call it [[suburb, satellite city, Mars, etc.), but the point is it's one of many towns that surrounds and is integrated with the core city of the region. That's that.

Then Flint must also be Metro Detroit as well, correct?

Fine, Ann Arbor is a suburb of Detroit. Wave that flag all you want, Amazon still isn't going to build their HQ here.

[313WX]

Below is a very good and sobering article [[this is specifically directed towards pig-headed folks like Bham1982 and aj3647).

http://www.freep.com/story/news/colu...oit/662745001/

[aj3647]

Below is a very good and sobering article [[this is specifically directed towards pig-headed folks like Bham1982 and aj3647).

http://www.freep.com/story/news/colu...oit/662745001/

I'm pig-headed because I disagree with you?

I tell you what, if Amazon picks Detroit, I'll eat crow. I'll eat as much crow as you want.

Of course, I have no expectation whatsoever that those of you who keep insisting over and over and over and over again that Metro Detroit is clearly far and away the #1 best option for Amazon will admit that perhaps your own biases blinded you to the many aspects of this region that do no suit Amazon's needs, in the event that Amazon does not choose a Michigan location.

Time will tell. We'll see who's right and who's wrong.

[313WX]

I'm pig-headed because I disagree with you?.

You're being pig-headed because you're being extremely negative for no good reason and making non-sensical arguments.

[Junjie]

You're being pig-headed because you're being extremely negative for no good reason and making non-sensical arguments.

If you look at the Amazon requirements and are anything other than negative about Detroit's chances you should have your head examined.

Do I hope Detroit gets it? Of course. But just read the actual RFP from Amazon - page 5 has their "Key Preferences and Decision Drivers." If you can go down that list and think Detroit is ahead of Denver, Minneapolis, Atlanta, Chicago, Austin, and all the others on the listed criteria, I have a bridge to sell you. There are 8 criteria, of which Detroit probably does well in "Site/Building" and possibly "Logistics" depending on how they weight the different aspects listed. After that, there's nothing in the other 6 criteria where Detroit isn't obviously behind. For example, "Incentives" are listed as a "critical decision driver." Is there any reason to think Michigan is going to make a top 3 play on this score? Much less problems where Detroit is locked into a bottom rank compared to other cities, such as "Quality of Life" and "Labor Force."

The only hope is that Bezos decides they want to make a huge splash by playing on the Detroit "comeback" narrative and is therefore willing to overlook quality of life, access and appeal to talent, incentives, total lack of regional transit except for a few SMART buses, etc.

[Bham1982]

Below is a very good and sobering article [[this is specifically directed towards pig-headed folks like Bham1982 and aj3647).

http://www.freep.com/story/news/colu...oit/662745001/

Given there's nothing in the article that remotely contradicts anything we have written, I'll take your absurd, childlike criticism in stride.

[313WX]

If you look at the Amazon requirements and are anything other than negative about Detroit's chances you should have your head examined.

Well fuck it then. Dan Gilbert and others around the region should just roll up into a ball in the corner and give up, because they're clearly wasting their time according to Junjie and the other armchair quarterbacks on here.

I liken this to applying for and landing a job. Amazon is the employer and the cities competing would be the potential employees. I see the RFP as a job description and the criteria as a wish list [[in other words, they're listing items that are strongly preferred, but not required). I see the bids cities submit as the interview stage. As an HR major, I can tell you that personality and cultural fit matters just as much as matching all of the requirements on paper. With Dan Gilbert and his unyielding charisma, if he works his mojo with Bezos and the executives as he has done with folks in Michigan, it maybe just enough to convince Amazon to overlook things were lacking and say "Hey, they match 4 out of 5 of the requirements and they're clearly working on addressing the 5th requirement, I like the energy and positivity they expressed, so I'm comfortable in taking a shot on them. This would also give us a blank slate to mold them into the vision that we have."

You can wallow in your doom and gloom all you want. My focus is on accentuating the positive in this effort, as this will be the opportunity for Detroit to finally experience the prosperity that cities such as Dallas or Seattle or Boston are enjoying [[instead of remaining in its current fledgling state). If Amazon chooses some other city, then fine [[whatever). But what good does it do to have such a defeatist attitude before the process has barely begin? Hell, if Atlanta projected the same mindset that you are, they would have never landed the 1996 Olympics.

[313WX]

Given there's nothing in the article that remotely contradicts anything we have written...

I take it you didn't actually read the article.

"In Michigan, people were tripping over each other and there were multiple bids and no alignment. People were competing against each other and we wanted a region where if we had a problem, we knew the region would come together to solve the problem as opposed to pointing fingers.

In other words, putting so much focus on pushing bullshit claims such as Ann Arbor not being a part of Metro Detroit [[instead of realizing we're stronger by acknowledging and playing up the regional tie). To people outside of Michigan, it makes them think we're coo-coo and serves no purpose.

[313WX]

Well this certainly won't help Minneapolis' chances [[not that the city *needs* Amazon)...

Dayton: State Will be 'Restrained' in Pursuit of 2nd Amazon Headquarters


http://kstp.com/politics/governor-ma...rsuit/4601082/

[douglasm]

Just for what it's worth, I read an article in today's Seattle Times that there are over a hundred separate regions, cities, states, etc. that have shown interest in HQ2. Not all of them will submit proposals by the deadline, but I'm going to assume at out of those 100 plus, the hand wringing and angst expressed by the 99 or so that aren't chosen next spring is going to be fierce.

[313WX]

Just for what it's worth, I read an article in today's Seattle Times that there are over a hundred separate regions, cities, states, etc. that have shown interest in HQ2. Not all of them will submit proposals by the deadline, but I'm going to assume at out of those 100 plus, the hand wringing and angst expressed by the 99 or so that aren't chosen next spring is going to be fierce.

Link to said article:

http://www.seattletimes.com/business...g-amazons-hq2/

[313WX]

Duggan goes into further detail about the conversations he had with Snyder and Gilbert:

http://www.wxyz.com/news/dan-gilbert...detroit?page=2

[313WX]

University of Michigan has officially given their support for a Detroit bid:

University touts Michigan as destination for Amazon headquarters

https://www.michigandaily.com/sectio...n-headquarters

[douglasm]

Thanks for the Seattle Times link. Alas, I can't get through their paywall. Read too many articles online this week.

[Jimaz]

Thanks for the Seattle Times link. Alas, I can't get through their paywall. Read too many articles online this week.

douglasm, does this link work for you?:

100-plus contenders imagine hosting Amazon's HQ2

[[I used the link from the Google search results page after searching for the article's title.)

[Junjie]

Well fuck it then. Dan Gilbert and others around the region should just roll up into a ball in the corner and give up, because they're clearly wasting their time according to Junjie and the other armchair quarterbacks on here.

Look, two things. One, I truly apologize for being rather, uh... aggressive in my last few posts here. This is a community of people and not just a comments section where we hurl insults. And so I'm sorry for projecting that tone or posting things that come across that way.

Two, though, can you please respond to what people said and not what you imagine them to have said? My point was simply that if you look realistically at the criteria, Detroit's chances are not good and people should not anticipate getting HQ2. Do I support the bid? Yes. Am I thrilled to see everyone from Gilbert to L. Brooks getting together behind this? Yes. Do I think it's worthwhile to go through this process even if it fails? Yes. I mean it. This is an incredible opportunity and it would be stupid for any city not to take its best shot. I think you are exactly right when you say "I liken this to applying for and landing a job," and if Detroit is going to get this bid it will happen in the way you describe. If your dream job opens up, you apply, even if you don't meet all the criteria and even though you might not get it.

The last thing I want to be is defeatist or doom and gloom. At the same time, if SE Michigan/Detroit don't get the bid, I hope that people can look at the criteria and realistically admit that the region has a lot of work to do to be tops in these categories that businesses like Amazon care about. What concerns me is if people are blasé or truly think that the Detroit area is plenty competitive with other cities already, and thus has little need to change or improve. And this RFP is a great chance to take a cold, objective look and hold the city and suburbs to some external standards.

[DetroitNightLights]

Detroit-Windsor is the best option for Amazon's HQ2. Detroit-Windsor has the best location for the price, in a superior urban downtown, with a wide array of transit options, with the best access to global talent. Detroit - Windsor meets or exceeds all the criteria of the Amazon RFP.

The International location allows for access to global talent from Canada without all the expensive real estate bubbles in other Canadian cities. If Detroit is considered to have cheap real estate in the U.S., Windsor has the cheap real estate in Canada. Detroit is home to the only U.S. Patent Office outside of Washington D.C. allowing for faster and easier communications when filing patents. Detroit is home to the consulate of Mexico, allowing for quick communications with the three biggest countries in North America. The main regional postal sorting center is located just outside of downtown Detroit, allowing for quick shipping times for letters and packages.

Other cities have nice downtowns with lots of transit options, but it is Detroit that will give you the best location near the largest transit terminals for the price. Downtown Detroit has a reliable downtown circulator, 5-10 minute public transit connecting to Canada, a large transit hub for regional buses, and a state of the art light rail line connecting key neighborhoods to the North. The Detroit light rail line also connects to a regional rail station, which is currently under development to connect downtown Detroit to educational hubs in Dearborn and Ann Arbor, and the metro's airport. Stations are already being constructed for this line and trains have already been purchased. Detroit has a superior bike sharing network, and an underused road network with lots of alternative routes for private drivers and car sharers.

Other top contenders do not have developable land in prominent downtown locations. Amazon should be given the best location for its new headquarters. A great online retailer and tech company needs a great location to attract talent. Does Amazon really want to be located in an old abandoned bullet factory or former toxic waste site? Amazon deserves to be in a vibrant downtown with transit, in prominent buildings, with room to expand.

Other top contenders seem to be having trouble putting together adequate tax incentives because they haven't got their books in order the way Detroit and Windsor has, or because they have a landed collection of headquarters that will baulk over the tax incentives, increased use of infrastructure, and increased pressure on their talent pools.

Detroit-Windsor's business community is generally welcoming, and eager to have others join in rebuilding North America through one of its world famous economic and manufacturing centers. Though no region is perfect, it is Detroit-Windsor that will cater most to the needs of Amazon, and so it is Deroit-Windsor who is the best place for Amazon.

[wolverine]

Detroit-Windsor is the best option for Amazon's HQ2. Detroit-Windsor has the best location for the price, in a superior urban downtown, with a wide array of transit options, with the best access to global talent. Detroit - Windsor meets or exceeds all the criteria of the Amazon RFP.

The International location allows for access to global talent from Canada without all the expensive of the real estate bubbles in other Canadian cities. If Detroit is considered to have cheap real estate in the U.S., Windsor has the cheap real estate in Canada. Detroit is home to the only U.S. Patent Office outside of Washington D.C. allowing for faster and easier communications when filing patents. Detroit is home to the consulate of Mexico, allowing for quick communications with the three biggest countries in North America. The main regional postal sorting center is located just outside of downtown Detroit, allowing for quick shipping times for letters and packages.

Other cities have nice downtowns with lots of transit options, but it is Detroit that will give you the best location near the largest transit terminals for the price. Downtown Detroit has a reliable downtown circulator, 5-10 minute public transit connecting to Canada, a large transit hub for regional buses, and a state of the art light rail line connecting key neighborhoods to the North. The Detroit light rail line also connects to a regional rail station, which is currently under development to connect downtown Detroit to educational hubs in Dearborn and Ann Arbor, and the metro's airport. Stations are already being constructed for this line and trains have already been purchased. Detroit has a superior bike sharing network, and an underused road network with lots of alternative routes for private drivers and car sharers.

Other top contenders do not have developable land in prominent downtown locations. Amazon should be given the best location for its new headquarters. A great online retailer and tech company needs a great location to attract talent. Does Amazon really want to be located in an old abandoned bullet factory or former toxic waste site? Amazon deserves to be in a vibrant downtown with transit, in prominent buildings, with room to expand.

Other top contenders seem to be having trouble putting together adequate tax incentives because they haven't got their books in order the way Detroit and Windsor has, or because they have a landed collection of headquarters that will baulk over the tax incentives, increased use of infrastructure, and increased pressure on their talent pools.

Detroit-Windsor's business community is generally welcoming, and eager to have others join in rebuilding North America through one of its world famous economic and manufacturing centers. Though no region is perfect, it is Detroit-Windsor that will cater most to the needs of Amazon, and so it is Deroit-Windsor who is the best place for Amazon.

I wouldn't call Detroit transit state of the art. Capacity aside, it has lagged in technology integration and reliable frequency of arrivals. The q-line kept saying "3 minute arrivals" and it took like 12 minutes last I rode it

I'm thinking a public transit requirement will be more like "rapid transit." Where 1-2 minute headways between trains will reliably get thousands of employees to campus or at least provide a steady passenger load to a shuttle location.

In a lot of major downtowns with heavy rail transit, there are private charter buses arriving like every 5 minutes to take people to office buildings that are greater than a 10 minute walk from a subway or train station

[313WX]

At the same time, if SE Michigan/Detroit don't get the bid, I hope that people can look at the criteria and realistically admit that the region has a lot of work to do to be tops in these categories that businesses like Amazon care about. What concerns me is if people are blasé or truly think that the Detroit area is plenty competitive with other cities already, and thus has little need to change or improve. And this RFP is a great chance to take a cold, objective look and hold the city and suburbs to some external standards.

That's all good and well. I simply think we'd be best served taking the energy to focus on what you describe *AFTER* the process is complete and a decision has been made.

In the mean time, we should focus on playing the cards we've been dealt as good as possible and, I repeat, it should be all about accentuating the positives [[which there are plenty are).

[Hermod]

Back to GE:
Effective tax rates over the years for GE:
2007--15.5%
2008--5.5%
2009--0.0%
2010--7.4%
2011--27.4%
2012--14.4%
2013--8.5%
2014--10.3%
2015--25.2%
2016--25.2%

[Junjie]

That's all good and well. I simply think we'd be best served taking the energy to focus on what you describe *AFTER* the process is complete and a decision has been made.

In the mean time, we should focus on playing the cards we've been dealt as good as possible and, I repeat, it should be all about accentuating the positives [[which there are plenty are).

Ok, sure. I'm confident that playing the available cards and accentuating the positives is precisely what Gilbert et al will do. I'd expect nothing less. On the other hand I doubt that's terribly relevant to discussing Detroit's chances here on this forum. In this very thread we have people saying "it's ok that we have no regional transit network because the highway network is great," as though Dallas and Minneapolis and Denver lack for highways in addition to having extensive light rail systems that Detroit can only dream of. That kind of thinking needs to be challenged, because it's an excuse for Detroit not to improve.

In case you're still worried I'm a defeatist, though, here are a couple positives from other articles at the Seattle Times that I noticed:

"Cusumano, of MIT, is skeptical that Amazon will end up chopping up individual teams among the two headquarters based on executives’ preferences. He expects the company to place distinct units in one city or the other. Say, a cloud-computing and software-development hub in Seattle and a logistics and transportation group elsewhere." [Link]

Logistics and transportation sounds like a great fit. It might be sexier to get a bunch of cloud computing jobs, but if this is what Amazon is looking to do then that's good for Detroit's chances.

"In 2005, Schoettler said, he told CEO Jeff Bezos that the company needed a plan, and Bezos agreed. His only condition was that Amazon would stay in downtown Seattle, Schoettler said. That coincided with the reversal of a decades-long outflow from U.S. cities to their suburbs: By staying in the urban core, Amazon would attract members of the hip creative class.

“It was a very conscious decision we made,” Schoettler said. The easiest place for Amazon to grow into was South Lake Union. “It was essentially a sea of parking lots,” ..." [Link]

Need an urban core with a sea of parking lots to build on? Perfect. I wonder if the Ilitches would part with some of their Foxtown empire.

[313WX]

Ok, sure. I'm confident that playing the available cards and accentuating the positives is precisely what Gilbert et al will do. I'd expect nothing less. On the other hand I doubt that's terribly relevant to discussing Detroit's chances here on this forum. In this very thread we have people saying "it's ok that we have no regional transit network because the highway network is great," as though Dallas and Minneapolis and Denver lack for highways in addition to having extensive light rail systems that Detroit can only dream of. That kind of thinking needs to be challenged, because it's an excuse for Detroit not to improve.

In case you're still worried I'm a defeatist, though, here are a couple positives from other articles at the Seattle Times that I noticed:

"Cusumano, of MIT, is skeptical that Amazon will end up chopping up individual teams among the two headquarters based on executives’ preferences. He expects the company to place distinct units in one city or the other. Say, a cloud-computing and software-development hub in Seattle and a logistics and transportation group elsewhere." [Link]

Logistics and transportation sounds like a great fit. It might be sexier to get a bunch of cloud computing jobs, but if this is what Amazon is looking to do then that's good for Detroit's chances.

"In 2005, Schoettler said, he told CEO Jeff Bezos that the company needed a plan, and Bezos agreed. His only condition was that Amazon would stay in downtown Seattle, Schoettler said. That coincided with the reversal of a decades-long outflow from U.S. cities to their suburbs: By staying in the urban core, Amazon would attract members of the hip creative class.

“It was a very conscious decision we made,” Schoettler said. The easiest place for Amazon to grow into was South Lake Union. “It was essentially a sea of parking lots,” ..." [Link]

Need an urban core with a sea of parking lots to build on? Perfect. I wonder if the Ilitches would part with some of their Foxtown empire.

I get what you're saying, but my point is we already know about all of the negatives, so what is the purpose of dwelling on them? The proposal is due one month from now, so we can't do anything to address them now.

Concerning Seattle, people tend to forget that they had fairly crappy transit themselves before Amazon took off. That didn't scare Bezos away at the time, and for all we know, it may not be a dealbreaker this time.

As far as Detroit's road system, there are very few cities that have a street grid as cohesive and easily navigable as we do. You visit any of the sunbelt cities or many Midwestern cities and it's like driving around in a maze when you get off the highways. Detroit's streets, on the other hand, are pretty straight forward in terms of getting to/from one's destination. Furthermore, I can't think of other cities that have wide avenues to compliment its highways such as Mound, Telegraph, 8 Mile, Gratiot, etc. which makes getting through and across town relatively easy despite the lack of transit. Now sure, it shouldn't be an excuse for the lack of transit, but Detroit has done a good job of mitigating the need for it.

Regarding the Ilitches' land, I have no doubt in my mind that they would sell it for the right price. I don't think they have any expectation of redeveloping all of it.

[313WX]

I don't know how true it is, but I heard that Atlanta and Georgia have the best credit rating in the country.

If that's the case, they're going to sell the farm and throw out everything including the kitchen sink to land this. They're already considered a Top 3 or 5 contender, so this will really help their cause.

If Detroit doesn't land this, I definitely want them to be chosen. This would be a boon for their relatively neglected Southern Suburbs and downtown proper [[which haven't seen much development lately like Midtown and their Northern Suburbs)

[313WX]

Below is a very thorough analysis conducted as far as where potential cities stand in terms of meeting Amazon's needs.

Surprisingly, Detroit ranked relatively high, with a score greater than 40%. Only 3 others [[Chicago, Philadelphia and DC) barely had a score greater than 50%.

It should be noted, he dinged Detroit for a lack of housing. He also didn't include Ann Arbor / University of Michigan in his analysis. Take that however you like.

https://medium.com/migration-issues/...n-effda4edc00f

I did chuckle at this part, as he has a point. With both Detroit and Atlanta being Delta's top hubs, you can practically get the same number of direct flights to the same number of destinations in both cities.

I’m not going to bother with debating whether Atlanta should get more airport points than Detroit.

[iheartthed]

Below is a very thorough analysis conducted as far as where potential cities stand in terms of meeting Amazon's needs.

Surprisingly, Detroit ranked relatively high, with a score greater than 40%. Only 3 others [[Chicago, Philadelphia and DC) barely had a score greater than 50%.

It should be noted, he dinged Detroit for a lack of housing. He also didn't include Ann Arbor / University of Michigan in his analysis. Take that however you like.

https://medium.com/migration-issues/...n-effda4edc00f

I did chuckle at this part, as he has a point. With both Detroit and Atlanta being Delta's top hubs, you can practically get the same number of direct flights to the same number of destinations in both cities.

Detroit might've actually come out #1 if Michigan had not voted for Trump, lol. I was thought it was a sound analysis until they used that as a criteria...