So, is anyone ever going to do anything about Hart Plaza?

**1953** · September-07-17, 12:58 PM

I never gave Hart Plaza's architectural cache much thought until you mentioned it, and so I turned up this article:

http://docomomo-us.org/news/the-litt...t-s-hart-plaza

Sounds to me like the park is hard, cold, not really what's needed, and in line to be demoed like others of its kind. Mr. Noguchi may have designed "playful" landscapes, but I'd rather play in Campus Martius, with its lush, tree-filled spaces and warm, accessible hardscapes.

**ABetterDetroit** · September-07-17, 01:29 PM

I attend both Movement and the Jazz festival every year and I have no problems with Hart Plaza. Does it need matinence? Of course it does. The layout of the plaza works and functions fine for these largest events. Replace the apron to the river with some stamped concrete, do some paver stone maintenance and redo the bathrooms in stainless steel like the ones on the DNR side of The River Walk and the city could get MORE years out of HP

I could think of a hundred things the city could put finacial resources into in the neighborhoods. Downtown is doing well, it doesn't need a large capital investment in such a small area.

If private money wants to step up to the plate that's different. Detroits funds need to go where a majority of the citizens live. There has been plenty of neglect in the neighborhoods that needs to be addressed immediately that effects quality of human life.

**southen** · September-07-17, 02:31 PM

I walked through this afternoon and much to my surprise the fountain was on. Instead of just passing through people were actually sitting and enjoying it. Just a thought.

**dtowncitylover** · September-07-17, 02:47 PM

It would be nice to have a new Welcome sign/marquee. The current one is very tired looking and needs updated. Just my two cents...

**archfan** · September-08-17, 02:06 AM

I was surprised to see that there were still a couple ethnic festivals - I thought they were long gone!

Along with the large festivals, the plaza also needs smaller events programmed during the week. Predictable series would be nice - jazz Mondays, R&B Tuesdays, etc. That assumes that there is more work put into it than collecting rent and hosing it off on Monday. Ultimately, more activity could help sales for the weekend.

One of the large charities like Kellogg may need to put in seed money. I wonder if the Riverfront Conservancy could take that on instead of the city, or if that would overwhelm them.

**angry_fred** · January-13-21, 11:08 AM

Looks like there's a fresh RFP on Hart Plaza:

https://detroitmi.gov/document/rfp-r...ate-hart-plaza

Anyone know anything about the scope here?

**K-slice** · January-13-21, 06:37 PM

I would love to see Hart Plaza back when it was new. There were originally so many little accent lights that I've noticed the remains of in various concrete and stone forms. Should be a great asset to the city!

**Seven&wyo** · January-13-21, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by angry_fred

Looks like there's a fresh RFP on Hart Plaza:

https://detroitmi.gov/document/rfp-r...ate-hart-plaza

Anyone know anything about the scope here?

Personally, I want it gone. It’s insanely ugly and you could easily build around the fountain. It should redeveloped with a street as it was back in the day. There are enough parks and space downtown, we density and beautiful classical architecture.....
I may be dreaming a little too much

**Meddle** · January-13-21, 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by Seven&wyo

we density

I think you're dense enough.

**EGrant** · January-13-21, 08:46 PM

I think if Hart Plaza was redesigned and utilized a little better, it would have a lot better value as a park. Movement is an awesome use of that space, but what about the cultural festivals that used to be there? Or a summer concert series? Or some kind of sporting events like a skateboard competition? I know the focus of downtown tends to be Campus Martius, but I think there's room to get more use out of Hart Plaza.

But if not, something like Cleveland's Flats area could be interesting. They built a lot of residential with bars and restaurants on the ground floor right on the river. It's a nice little nightlife area, if not a tad recent college grad-ish.

**Gistok** · January-13-21, 09:05 PM

^^ EGrant... I remember the ethnic festivals back in the 1980s... they were wonderful when they were on the riverfront... they utilized the lower level spaces... perfect for that. And then by the 1990s... they were gone! I blame it on the Slovenians, Croatians, Serbians, Bosnia-Herzegovinians, Montenegrans and Kosovoans... they just couldn't keep it together as "Yugoslavians"... j/k

I was just looking up the architect's name who designed Hart Plaza...

Isamu Noguchi [[1904–1988) was one of the twentieth century's most important and critically acclaimed sculptors. Through a lifetime of artistic experimentation, he created sculptures, gardens, furniture and lighting designs, ceramics, architecture, and set designs.

Is Noguchi famous enough to warrant keeping the plaza intact? [[Not stating an opinion, just wondering). Or was Hart Plaza Noguchi's "stinkeroo"?

I don't want us to be like NYC Rockefeller Center... where they destroyed their Rivera Murals... unlike Detroit where we kept ours [[as unpopular as it was at the time), and treasure it today.

Will future generations look at us today and say "they destroyed a Naguchi masterpiece".

As I said, I'm no fan of it either... but just wondering...

**Jason** · January-13-21, 11:12 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

I don't want us to be like NYC Rockefeller Center... where they destroyed their Rivera Murals... unlike Detroit where we kept ours [[as unpopular as it was at the time), and treasure it today.

Will future generations look at us today and say "they destroyed a Naguchi masterpiece".

The comparison is better than you think, because in the 1930s Noguchi was also providing artwork for Rockefeller Center. Noguchi is a more significant artist than Rivera though, although I think his DIA mural is a great fit for Detroit and something that has very deservingly become one of our city's icons.

But yeah Hart Plaza is a more significant piece of design than 99% of the buildings that get historic designations and sensitive historic renovations. It also has a lot of history, being a place where a lot of historical events took place, and it is also a place that is part of our shared collective memories. It's basically a textbook definition of something which needs historic protection. And it's actually a good design too, and more people would appreciate it if the city took competent care of the things it owns.

**401don** · January-14-21, 08:16 AM

Like Ren Cen, which chose to ignore the river with its design, I thought the strangest thing about Hart Plaza was the underground. Why would you build a nice sit-down restaurant, I believe it was Japanese food, underground on the riverfront?

**JonWylie** · January-14-21, 08:39 AM

One thing I wish would be done with Hart Plaza is moving it level with the Riverwalk. I know that would mess up Atwater road under it, but that doesn't seem like that big of a loss. I would much rather have the stairs or a slope immediately after Jefferson, so you connect the plaza more with the Riverwalk.

**Danny** · January-14-21, 09:09 AM

Here some planned events that may not happen in 2021 socially due to COVID-19 still rampant:

1. The Movement 2021...only for those who vaccinated can attend.
2. Meridian Winter Blast...Might be cancelled again!
3. The Grand Prix...only for those who vaccinated can attend.
4. The Ford Fireworks...only for those who vaccinated can attend.
5. Woodward Dream Cruise...only for those who vaccinated can attend.
6. Michigan State Fair...only for those who vaccinated can attend.
7. Detroit Jazz Festival...only for those who vaccinated can attend.
8. Arts, Beats and Eats...only for those who vaccinated can attend.

**GPCharles** · January-14-21, 09:45 AM

At least fix the damn Dodge Fountain and get it working again.

**Satiricalivory** · January-14-21, 11:32 AM

Hart plaza has huge potential and you don't need to destroy it to realize it.

Mainly people need a reason to spend time there, there needs to be some shops and cafes/restaurants. The space needs some adjustments to become more intimate. Connect it with the riverfront better. And of course fill in the hole the Ford Auditorium left, I've been thinking in my head that it would be a great spot for a small [[midrise) hotel that directly connects to the plaza, it would guarantee 24 hour vibrancy.

**angry_fred** · January-14-21, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by Satiricalivory

Hart plaza has huge potential and you don't need to destroy it to realize it.

Mainly people need a reason to spend time there, there needs to be some shops and cafes/restaurants. The space needs some adjustments to become more intimate. Connect it with the riverfront better. And of course fill in the hole the Ford Auditorium left, I've been thinking in my head that it would be a great spot for a small [[midrise) hotel that directly connects to the plaza, it would guarantee 24 hour vibrancy.

I'm inclined to agree, but that doesn't mean we can't make huge changes. As another poster indicated, there's apparently a vacant restaurant space below it. I'd say we should do the following:

1. move the stairs to the river as far back as possible without having to move atwater. Cheap and easy.

2. Develop the auditorium site. Personally, I think it should be pushed all the way up against jefferson to create the feeling of continuity

3. Rehab what we have, get the fountain working

4. Pave the area between the fountain and the auditorium site to create a clear line of sight down woodward toward the river

5. Remove the police dept parking lot between atwater and the river. The cops can park in the Ford garage or maybe under the new development. That space can be made part of the riverwalk, or possibly just be made part of the auditorium development

**EastsideAl** · January-16-21, 11:07 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

I was just looking up the architect's name who designed Hart Plaza...

Isamu Noguchi [[1904–1988) was one of the twentieth century's most important and critically acclaimed sculptors. Through a lifetime of artistic experimentation, he created sculptures, gardens, furniture and lighting designs, ceramics, architecture, and set designs.

Is Noguchi famous enough to warrant keeping the plaza intact? [[Not stating an opinion, just wondering). Or was Hart Plaza Noguchi's "stinkeroo"?

I don't want us to be like NYC Rockefeller Center... where they destroyed their Rivera Murals... unlike Detroit where we kept ours [[as unpopular as it was at the time), and treasure it today.

Will future generations look at us today and say "they destroyed a Naguchi masterpiece".

As I said, I'm no fan of it either... but just wondering...

Yes, Noguchi is a very important artist and designer in the history of modern art, in the US, Japan, and elsewhere. With his mixed parentage, international education, and frequent traveling, he mixed Japanese aesthetic elements and use of materials with American and Western artistic forms in a way that created wholly new and starkly beautiful objects and landscapes. In addition to Hart Plaza, he is also connected to Michigan through his furniture designs for Herman Miller Inc. in Zeeland, some of which are still in production over 70 years later.

In my view, destroying Hart Plaza [[rather than repairing it and perhaps tweaking its functionality a bit) would be an act of artistic and cultural vandalism. One Detroit would come to regret, the same way we now regret tearing down City Hall or the Monroe Block, or regret destroying so many neighborhoods [[including the one that once stood where Hart Plaza is today) in the name of 'urban improvement'.

Noguchi is one of the few artists in the U.S. to have an entire museum devoted to his work [[in Queens NYC, just across the East River from Manhattan). Several years ago a friend of mine who is a producer for PBS in NYC, and knew Noguchi in his last years, made a film for the museum on Noguchi's public works. I helped her find photos and film in the possession of the City of Detroit, that were taken at the time of the plaza's construction and opening. You can see in the film many of the fine details, such as the lights K-slice mentions above, and the proper functioning of the fountain, which have been allowed to completely decay under the city's lack of stewardship.

Here is a page from the Noguchi Museum's website of his many public works [[parks, sculptures, landscaping, etc.), including Hart Plaza:
https://www.noguchi.org/artworks/public-works/

Noguchi's bio from the museum:
https://www.noguchi.org/isamu-noguch...phy/biography/

**401don** · January-17-21, 07:57 AM

The city really needs to decide what they want Hart Plaza to be. As a festival site, with large crowds moving about it's current design is fine. As an everyday park, where people would spend leisure time, they need benches, tables, pathways, a lot less concrete, etc. Can you design a park that meets both needs? I'm not certain.

**southen** · January-17-21, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by EastsideAl

Yes, Noguchi is a very important artist and designer in the history of modern art, in the US, Japan, and elsewhere. With his mixed parentage, international education, and frequent traveling, he mixed Japanese aesthetic elements and use of materials with American and Western artistic forms in a way that created wholly new and starkly beautiful objects and landscapes. In addition to Hart Plaza, he is also connected to Michigan through his furniture designs for Herman Miller Inc. in Zeeland, some of which are still in production over 70 years later.

In my view, destroying Hart Plaza [[rather than repairing it and perhaps tweaking its functionality a bit) would be an act of artistic and cultural vandalism. One Detroit would come to regret, the same way we now regret tearing down City Hall or the Monroe Block, or regret destroying so many neighborhoods [[including the one that once stood where Hart Plaza is today) in the name of 'urban improvement'.

Noguchi is one of the few artists in the U.S. to have an entire museum devoted to his work [[in Queens NYC, just across the East River from Manhattan). Several years ago a friend of mine who is a producer for PBS in NYC, and knew Noguchi in his last years, made a film for the museum on Noguchi's public works. I helped her find photos and film in the possession of the City of Detroit, that were taken at the time of the plaza's construction and opening. You can see in the film many of the fine details, such as the lights K-slice mentions above, and the proper functioning of the fountain, which have been allowed to completely decay under the city's lack of stewardship.

Here is a page from the Noguchi Museum's website of his many public works [[parks, sculptures, landscaping, etc.), including Hart Plaza:
https://www.noguchi.org/artworks/public-works/

Noguchi's bio from the museum:
https://www.noguchi.org/isamu-noguch...phy/biography/

Your well stated post is what I struggle with when it comes to this topic. Unlike a singular structure, this space is made for the public to inhabit it and spend time there. Outside of large events the space sadly fails at that. I will often go there to photograph the city and even in the summer I am lucky if I see more than a dozen people actually hanging out in the park. Everyone seems to walk and jog through it to either get to downtown or the riverwalk. It isn't a destination for anyone, just a passageway.

I have always loved Noguchi's work and when the fountain is functional it is spectacular. I wonder though if there isn't a way to honor the design while also improving it for the current needs of the city. Hart Plaza should be a destination for people when visiting the city and right now it isn't. I am afraid that even if the city repairs the space it will remain underutilized.

**Dumpling** · January-17-21, 10:56 AM

Thanks to everyone for their insights and thoughts. This is a
somewhat older Detroit Yes thread about Hart Plaza.

https://www.detroityes.com/mb/showth...rt-Plaza/page2

I like the Noguchi Fountain, whether it is working or not,
but then again have not spent any time in Hart Plaza
in the last decade. The Noguchi Fountain should be
working in the summer months. If it is too complex
or easily vandalized a retrofit should keep the Fountain
but work around those problems. So the visual is a
Plexiglas barrier all around the original fountain with
a foot splash ring around that.

**K-slice** · January-17-21, 01:50 PM

The fountain is the key to summertime usage outside of regular events. Just look how many families you see down where the GM fountains shoot water out of the ground. It's an attraction that keeps kids entertained for hours. Add some tables with shade, a few food trucks, improved green sapce, concerts on the weekends, and you would have a constantly used space in the summer.

The Auditorium site also needs to play a part. My vote would be for a low-mid rise residential structure with the bottom floors left open for some kind of attraction/commercial space. Saving this space for some grandiose project like the aquarium will only ensure it stays a dirt lot until we're all long gone...

**casscorridor** · January-17-21, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by 401don

The city really needs to decide what they want Hart Plaza to be. As a festival site, with large crowds moving about it's current design is fine. As an everyday park, where people would spend leisure time, they need benches, tables, pathways, a lot less concrete, etc. Can you design a park that meets both needs? I'm not certain.

I think it can be both. Here's how:

- Expand the park into the auditorium site, which would be a large open lawn with trees and winding paths. This would sit atop a parking/retail podium that would span the uncovered bit of Atwater, and connect with the existing "underground" structure"
- The entire "lower" section below Atwater [[minus the Ziggurat) would be made into a lawn, level with the riverwalk and including the existing parking lot. Stairs/ramps would connect with the "upper" park.
- Add permanent revenue generating cafes and kiosks that could enhance a year-round program.

The existing "plaza" sections could remain, and large scale festivals can continue, but it would also provide all new green spaces for everyday use and opportunities for added revenue via new retail and event programing.

**bust** · January-17-21, 03:00 PM

Restore Hart Plaza to its original design, please.
Adequately Maintain It.
Develop much better programming.
And eliminate some of the pedestrian barriers that surround it on all sides.

Its problems have little to do with its design and everything about the physical, political, and social context that surrounds it.

Here's yet another thread about this, where I outlined my reasons why.