Windsor's Little Italy

[Oddz313]

Article today in the Freep about the changing landscape of little Italy in Windsor, I remember going there in the early part of the last decade when I had a girlfriend over there for a couple years to places like Toni Macaroni.....http://www.freep.com/story/entertain...sed/634479001/

[Canadian Visitor]

Article today in the Freep about the changing landscape of little Italy in Windsor, I remember going there in the early part of the last decade when I had a girlfriend over there for a couple years to places like Toni Macaroni.....http://www.freep.com/story/entertain...sed/634479001/

Windsor, overall, is doing well at the moment, economically.

But the tourism related sector, which relied on casual day/overnight trips from the U.S. remains deeply wounded.

I think one important thing that will have to change for this sector to recover is raising the percentage of Michiganders w/a passport.

As at 2016, I believe its still under 40%.

That, of course, is not a matter of policy or control for Windsor or Canada.

Though, I've long thought that a promotional move in Ontario to rebate American's the cost of their passport, if they stay at least 2 nights in a hotel here might yield some uptake.

Totally apart from that, however, I do think the U.S. passport holding rate is bizarrely low. I think it would be in the interests of the United States itself to get a higher penetration rate.

Americans here may have a better beat on this issue than I; but I wonder whether inordinately low levels of paid vacation are a factor?

Most countries around the world provide 4 or more weeks by law.

Canada is relatively low by comparison, but well above US norms.

Is this a factor? If not why is the passport rate so low?

[Bham1982]

Is this a factor? If not why is the passport rate so low?

Probably because the U.S. is an enormous country, with a ton of "stuff" for domestic leisure or business travelers.

Canada is comparatively much "smaller", people have to travel to the U.S. for many things [[beaches, warm weather, desert, major cities, etc.), and virtually the entire Canadian population is right on the border, making cross-border travel more common. Most of the U.S. side of the border is empty or pretty sparse or declined, so the inverse isn't true.

Also, the U.S. has much lower airfares, so many Canadians utilize airports directly over the border. Shopping, too, was a big deal traditionally, though less so now that the Canadian dollar is weaker and Canadian retail offerings have improved [[Canada didn't get upscale stores like Nordstrom and Saks until the last year or so).

I doubt it has much to do with vacation days, which aren't that different in the U.S. and Canada. Most professionals in the U.S. get four weeks or so.

[Canadian Visitor]

Probably because the U.S. is an enormous country, with a ton of "stuff" for domestic leisure or business travelers.

Canada is comparatively much "smaller", people have to travel to the U.S. for many things [[beaches, warm weather, desert, major cities, etc.), and virtually the entire Canadian population is right on the border, making cross-border travel more common. Most of the U.S. side of the border is empty or pretty sparse or declined, so the inverse isn't true.

Also, the U.S. has much lower airfares, so many Canadians utilize airports directly over the border. Shopping, too, was a big deal traditionally, though less so now that the Canadian dollar is weaker and Canadian retail offerings have improved [[Canada didn't get upscale stores like Nordstrom and Saks until the last year or so).

I doubt it has much to do with vacation days, which aren't that different in the U.S. and Canada. Most professionals in the U.S. get four weeks or so.

While a great many of those points are valid in the U.S./Canada context [[I might take issue w/'big cities', given that in most areas of Canada there are no convenient larger US cities directly across the border.

And there is no denying the geographic diversity of the US....

I would point out that most of the developed world, not just Canada, holds passports at far higher rates. Typically 60-80%.

Those countries on other continents don't have all their citizens congregated next to the US border, and they often face greater barriers to immediate cross-border travel such as language.

The issue, I would suggest is not why Canadians have passports in normative numbers for a developed nation; but why US rates are so low.

[Richard]

While a great many of those points are valid in the U.S./Canada context [[I might take issue w/'big cities', given that in most areas of Canada there are no convenient larger US cities directly across the border.

And there is no denying the geographic diversity of the US....

I would point out that most of the developed world, not just Canada, holds passports at far higher rates. Typically 60-80%.

Those countries on other continents don't have all their citizens congregated next to the US border, and they often face greater barriers to immediate cross-border travel such as language.

The issue, I would suggest is not why Canadians have passports in normative numbers for a developed nation; but why US rates are so low.

Most of the developed world countries are the size of one of our states,driving from Florida to Georgia here is like traveling from one country to the other.

So they need passports more so then Americans,Tampa to Detroit 1170 miles passing through four states and needing no passport,it would be the same as driving through 4 different countries in Europe.

I agree with the other post,our land mass and each states unique diversity could pretty much fill up a lifetime of travel.

In Orlando for years I met travelers from all over the world,they all spoke basic English.

If you can fly to Paris for a weekend for $200 including hotel it becomes a weekend jaunt verses a vacation.Then it becomes the U.S. for a proper vacation.

Lots of people in the U.S. have not even ever been on a plane let alone leave their birth state.

Fancy European vacations are more for you highly educated rich folks,us poor uneducated folk have to rely on enjoying the beauty that this country has to offer on a budget.No passport required.

[Canadian Visitor]

Most of the developed world countries are the size of one of our states,driving from Florida to Georgia here is like traveling from one country to the other.

So they need passports more so then Americans,Tampa to Detroit 1170 miles passing through four states and needing no passport,it would be the same as driving through 4 different countries in Europe.

I agree with the other post,our land mass and each states unique diversity could pretty much fill up a lifetime of travel.

In Orlando for years I met travelers from all over the world,they all spoke basic English.

If you can fly to Paris for a weekend for $200 including hotel it becomes a weekend jaunt verses a vacation.Then it becomes the U.S. for a proper vacation.

Lots of people in the U.S. have not even ever been on a plane let alone leave their birth state.

Fancy European vacations are more for you highly educated rich folks,us poor uneducated folk have to rely on enjoying the beauty that this country has to offer on a budget.No passport required.

I'm not sure why European or Canadian, or Asian vacations are fancy. While not as cheap as going to your local State Park to camp, they aren't inherently all that expensive.

A lot teens go to Europe and hostel it; and get a cheap rail pass while there; if you fly on a charter, you could probably do 2 weeks for under $3,000

As for rich; again I think this is a misnomer; the U.S. does not lack money, on the whole.

Further, in my expanded social circle which includes some non-uni grads, who do all sorts of non-fancy work from security to clerical; I can think of only a handful who haven't been to Europe. Probably half have been to a dozen or more countries.

Its something people do here, even though we have a very big country w/mountains, 3 oceans, 4 seasons, big cities, 2 languages [[plus various aboriginal ones) etc.

People just want to explore.

Is that not a desire in the U.S. ?

I know quite a few Americans personally, many of whom travel extensively; though I'll admit my social circle there is probably not representative.

[Canadian Visitor]

PS, we do OK for beaches in summer.....the world's largest freshwater beach is in Ontario [[Wasaga Beach).

Granted, we do need to leave the country if we want to wear swimwear, outside, in January.

[fastcarsandfreedom]

I spend a lot of time on both sides of the border locally. I thought this particular article was oddly negative and bordering on vitriolic. Old-world ethnic enclave neighborhoods are changing everywhere -- Via Italia is among those. While Erie Street may not be pulsing with life every weekday afternoon, it remains a good, walkable destination and on weekends it remains busy/vibrant. Neighborhoods like this in general -- urban and diverse -- are on the upswing -- not the downswing -- as evidenced all around the Detroit and Windsor area and their environs. Things did change markedly after 9/11 -- but let us not forget that 9/11 was 16 years ago.

[Crystal]

PS, we do OK for beaches in summer.....the world's largest freshwater beach is in Ontario [[Wasaga Beach).

Wasaga Beach was one of the questions on Jeopardy last night. All three contestants incorrectly answered which Great Lake Wasaga Beach is on. Sigh.

[preserve]

There used to be a really good German Restaurant in Walkerville, Rhinelander? maybe Is it still there?

[Richard]

If you are wondering about why Canada's tourism is not stellar,it boils down to spending money to make money,or promoting yourself.

80% of tourism in Canada is domestic tourism,kinda like the U.S.

Canada has dropped yearly in tourism due to lack of promotion funding and highest point of entry costs.

Most seek value for dollar.

Based on the study in the link which explains the reasons.The tourism council wanted to reach a goal of 100 billion in tourism revenue by 2015 based on the 2011 report,so you kinda need to find an updated report to compare progress or not.

Tourism is funny in how it works,even down to exchange rates.

If the U.S. is in a slump they can devalue the dollar and open the gates quick,U.K. Pound is $1.02 or something like that so it is more value for them to go to Cuba or Paris verses the U.S. at the moment.

When it was at $1.76 they were buying properties and spending big bucks over here.

But you cannot just sit there and say,here we are,you have to sell yourself as a destination with value,and that takes money.

http://tiac.travel/_Library/document...Optimized_.pdf

You guys spend more money promoting refugee relocations then tourism,you only have one pot of gold to work out of.

New York City is listed as our top destination both national and international,I have been there 3 times and each time it was a horrible experience for me.

I have been around the world,albeit on the gov dime,people are the same everywhere you go,to me it is the architecture and experience of different foods and cultures,but I can find that in Florida in daily life anyways.The cultural mix part anyways.

[Canadian Visitor]

If you are wondering about why Canada's tourism is not stellar,it boils down to spending money to make money,or promoting yourself.

80% of tourism in Canada is domestic tourism,kinda like the U.S.

Canada has dropped yearly in tourism due to lack of promotion funding and highest point of entry costs.

Most seek value for dollar.

Based on the study in the link which explains the reasons.The tourism council wanted to reach a goal of 100 billion in tourism revenue by 2015 based on the 2011 report,so you kinda need to find an updated report to compare progress or not.

Tourism is funny in how it works,even down to exchange rates.

If the U.S. is in a slump they can devalue the dollar and open the gates quick,U.K. Pound is $1.02 or something like that so it is more value for them to go to Cuba or Paris verses the U.S. at the moment.

When it was at $1.76 they were buying properties and spending big bucks over here.

But you cannot just sit there and say,here we are,you have to sell yourself as a destination with value,and that takes money.

http://tiac.travel/_Library/document...Optimized_.pdf

You guys spend more money promoting refugee relocations then tourism,you only have one pot of gold to work out of.

Feel free not to dominate every thread............


For the record, Toronto is the 4th most visited City in North America. There is no lack of tourists here. Bump into them everywhere.

But most are global, from Asia, Europe, elsewhere in Canada, or from specific areas of the US, NYC, LA, Boston, among others.

****

Again, what I asked was not specific to destination. It was about Americans owning passports, whether they use them to visit China, Australia, France, Brazil or Canada...etc.

I consider myself middle class, I'm near the US border, I live in a vast country, I've been in 6 provinces [[out of 10); but I've also been to more than a 1/2 dozen US States, and several European countries.

I am not out of the norm in Toronto. Yes there are folks who can't afford to travel or don't want to, but they are a small minority.

Why is it different in the US?

PS, I don't consider the exchange rate much when I travel. [[total cost matters, of course)

[Bham1982]

For the record, Toronto is the 4th most visited City in North America. There is no lack of tourists here. Bump into them everywhere.

"Most visited" has nothing to do with "most tourists".

Toronto is the 3rd largest city in "North America" [[you really mean U.S. + Canada); one would expect it would have many visitors, especially being the business center of Canada and basically 60% of the population is from somewhere else.

Toronto isn't a big tourist city, however. Why would Americans come in big numbers to Toronto? What would be the specific appeal? CN Tower? It's a largely generic city.

From a Michigan perspective, Chicago is much more appealing [[again, speaking strictly tourist stuff) and if you're in the the Northeast, the Northeast Corridor cities are closer and far more appealing. Montreal and Quebec are more attractive to Americans, and even those cities don't get huge numbers.

I consider myself middle class, I'm near the US border, I live in a vast country, I've been in 6 provinces [[out of 10); but I've also been to more than a 1/2 dozen US States, and several European countries.

Canada has significantly lower household incomes than in the U.S., alongside much higher taxes, housing and auto costs. I seriously doubt average Canadian families are dropping 5-10k every year to visit Europe. It's anecdotal, but I have very rarely encountered Canadians in Europe but Americans are absolutely everywhere.

If you live in upper middle class American communities, yes, traveling to Europe is the norm. I travel to Europe fairly frequently, on my own dime. But the Cracker Barrel crowd obviously isn't jetting off to Paris and Prague on a regular basis.

Also, many families who could afford it choose to spend their leisure time/money on other pursuits. Cottages Up North, ATVs, boats, snowmobiles and other stuff. Not my cup of tea, but tons of people would take an ATV over Paris.

[MrMichigan]

"Most visited" has nothing to do with "most tourists".

Toronto isn't a big tourist city, however. Why would Americans come in big numbers to Toronto? What would be the specific appeal? CN Tower? It's a largely generic city.

From a Michigan perspective, Chicago is much more appealing [[again, speaking strictly tourist stuff) and if you're in the the Northeast, the Northeast Corridor cities are closer and far more appealing. Montreal and Quebec are more attractive to Americans, and even those cities don't get huge numbers.

Bham, I disagree 100%. When is the last time you have been to Toronto? In my book, it compares very favorably to Chicago.

[Bham1982]

Bham, I disagree 100%. When is the last time you have been to Toronto? In my book, it compares very favorably to Chicago.

What, from a tourist perspective, do you find particularly appealing about Toronto?

I can't think of anything where Toronto would be a more appealing tourist destination than Chicago.

And I'm not a big Chicago fan, at all. Think it's overrated. But Chicago clearly has better museums, culture, shopping, waterfront, architecture, food scene, etc.

[Canadian Visitor]

Canada has significantly lower household incomes than in the U.S., alongside much higher taxes, housing and auto costs. I seriously doubt average Canadian families are dropping 5-10k every year to visit Europe.

Where do you get this stuff?

According to the US Census Bureau median household income is just over $51,000 USD

In Canada, in USD, the number is $63,000 and change.

Yes, our taxes are higher, though not that much, and we don't pay for health insurance in a significant way.

Also families w/children where household income is under $160,000 receive transfers, which for the lowest income earners are up to $6,400 per year per child. [[effectively lowering their income tax below zero)

Further, before you say 'sales tax', that too is rebated, with someone earning 30k'ish [[40 with kids) getting essentially 100% of their sales tax back [[ in the range of a $600-$1,200 rebate).

Then we could look at median net wealth instead. Canada $96,000USD; U.S. $44,000 USD

Your perceptions are quite skewed.

While you're busy not coming to Toronto, who do you think shops at 3 Nordstroms, 2 Saks, 3 Holt Renfrews [[Cdn luxury dept store) etc?

It's anecdotal, but I have very rarely encountered Canadians in Europe but Americans are absolutely everywhere.

That is anecdotal. There are 9x more Americans than Canadians, so I would expect more Americans to be in most places in the world. But I don't find the disparity to be as wide as the population difference would suggest.

Toronto isn't a big tourist city, however. Why would Americans come in big numbers to Toronto?

We are the #4 City for overnight, international visits in North America, Behind NYC, LA and Miami.

4.5M overnight visitors vs 2M for Chicago
So someone must find something appealing.

https://newsroom.mastercard.com/wp-c...dex-Report.pdf

What would be the specific appeal? CN Tower? It's a largely generic city.

Better for someone else to answer this, in so far as I live here.

But, I don't think generic is a good word at all.

In the core, its a wall of skyscrapers unlike anything on this continent outside of Manhattan.

Just beyond, the largest collection of Victorian Brick homes in North America.

I could list off the tourist stuff, but really this is getting silly.

From a Michigan perspective, Chicago is much more appealing [[again, speaking strictly tourist stuff)

I'll let you speak for yourself. I've been to Chicago and could say many wonderful things about it.

However, I would peg its dining scene as well behind Toronto's.

[Bham1982]

According to the US Census Bureau median household income is just over $51,000 USD

In Canada, in USD, the number is $63,000 and change.

Neither number is correct. U.S. median household income is 59k as of May 2017.

https://www.advisorperspectives.com/...il-last-report

Canadian FAMILY income is 63k, which equates to about 50k U.S. Family income has nothing to do with household income, and will be significantly higher. Family income in U.S. will be at least 70k or so.

Yes, our taxes are higher, though not that much, and we don't pay for health insurance in a significant way.

Americans don't pay for health insurance either, obviously. Their employer pays the vast bulk.

While you're busy not coming to Toronto, who do you think shops at 3 Nordstroms, 2 Saks, 3 Holt Renfrews [[Cdn luxury dept store) etc?

I go to your fine city a couple times a year, on work, and am not sure what you're arguing with this silly non-sequitur. Toronto residents are obviously shopping in Toronto stores. just like Detroiters shop in Detroit stores. There are 7 million people in the Toronto area; obviously many can afford nicer brands.

The luxury brands you note [[Nordstrom and Saks) just arrived, largely because the U.S. retail scene is saturated. Holt's is a small chain with a minor footprint. Before Nordstrom and Saks arrived you would see many Canadians shopping the Detroit locations.

And the Saks Canadian expansion is sorta a contraction/rebranding of Hudsons Bay [[they downsized in Toronto and Saks, now under same ownership, took the space).

But, I don't think generic is a good word at all.

In the core, its a wall of skyscrapers unlike anything on this continent outside of Manhattan.

Tourists typically visit cities to see something utterly generic and banal like "a wall of skyscrapers"? LOL. Dallas, Frankfurt, Shenzhen and Rotterdam are on everyone's to-do list, obviously.

And Chicago has taller and more impressive skyscrapers than Toronto. It isn't even close.

Just beyond, the largest collection of Victorian Brick homes in North America.

Yes, quite obviously, after seeing the "wall of skyscrapers", clearly visitors are off to see the "brick homes". Is this before or after the Shoe Museum and the Swiss Chalet?

Let's be real, Toronto is a nice city, but is not a tourist-focused city, and doesn't have iconic attractions. It looks and feels totally generic, which is why it's such a great stand-in for other cities in the movies. It could plausibly be anywhere.

[softailrider]

Before 9-11 two or three times a year we would go to Windsor for dinner and a casino visit. Since then customs became more problematic and we stopped going. Who needs the uncertainty of how long it's going to take to cross over and get back? If I want to lose money in a casino I can accomplish that over here. Do I miss going over there for those evenings? maybe, it was something different that we did, always enjoyed it.

[Canadian Visitor]

Before 9-11 two or three times a year we would go to Windsor for dinner and a casino visit. Since then customs became more problematic and we stopped going. Who needs the uncertainty of how long it's going to take to cross over and get back? If I want to lose money in a casino I can accomplish that over here. Do I miss going over there for those evenings? maybe, it was something different that we did, always enjoyed it.

Totally understandable.

For purposes of this thread, did you then, do you now have a passport?

Was that a critical factor in choosing to come over or not?

Is/was it US customs that gave you a hard time, or Canada?

What could change to make it worth your while to visit again/more often?

[Richard]

^ you whine about me dominating the thread,but yet here you are.

[Canadian Visitor]

^ you whine about me dominating the thread,but yet here you are.

One straight-forward sentence is not a whine.

It is a request.

You weren't in this thread; you had nothing useful to add to it.

You still don't.

There are lots of your compatriots who do have something useful to say, let them speak/post.

You answer questions, that were never asked w/answers that aren't true.

This is near universal with you.

Once in a blue moon, you slip in a fact and try to assert that proves you don't peddle complete nonsense.

Its not a legitimate defense.

I reply to your posts, at this point, only to let others know your full of something and give them the truth.

Most already knew, but I feel better as a person by making sure.

[Richard]

Well,I guess you are the self designated collective mind.

You are making a request in a public forum discussion and trying to set the standards according to your view.

The OT had more to do with the changing immigration patterns of the early Europeans and the impact and you want to obsess with passports.

Michigan is an EDL state and would not require a passport to visit Canada,correct?

[Canadian Visitor]

Michigan is an EDL state and would not require a passport to visit Canada,correct?

Yes.

But I it has been put that US customs may 'hassle' you when you return.

EDL is also something your not that likely to get, if you can't afford or aren't interested in a passport. Its still extra money, time, hassle vs status quo. Maybe a tad less than w/a passport.....

They also don't work at airports as I understand it, only at land crossings [[obviously that covers Windsor, but it does limit its advantages to the holder)

[GMan]

Yes.

But I it has been put that US customs may 'hassle' you when you return.

EDL is also something your not that likely to get, if you can't afford or aren't interested in a passport. Its still extra money, time, hassle vs status quo. Maybe a tad less than w/a passport.....

They also don't work at airports as I understand it, only at land crossings [[obviously that covers Windsor, but it does limit its advantages to the holder)

Used to go across the river via boat every weekend to eateries in the Amherstburg area. All that was required back then was that you called in via phone at port of entry and gave MC number [[boat registration), name of captain and number in party. No requirement when re-entering US.
Crossing by car was relatively easy also. What is citizenship, what is purpose of visit to Canada any weapons on person or in car? Returning to the States was the reverse of this.

Sometime in the early 90's the return to the US by car was becoming a hassle as questions got down to what street do you live on? [[ you just saw my license, ) what do you do for a living? Why did you go to Canada??? [[ To have fun and drink beer and the Ballet of course! )

After 9/11 of course it went up a notch with passports required, which I have but don't make a habit of carrying around.)
Lot's of choices to spend money and see things in the USA, so outside of fishing trips and nostalgia trips and the occasional event like the wedding of a co-worker, why go?

[EastsideAl]

Sometime in the early 90's the return to the US by car was becoming a hassle as questions got down to what street do you live on? [[ you just saw my license, ) what do you do for a living? Why did you go to Canada??? [[ To have fun and drink beer and the Ballet of course! )

After 9/11 of course it went up a notch with passports required, which I have but don't make a habit of carrying around.)

As someone who crosses the border very regularly, this is the key point. It's really our Customs that's the main problem, not Canada's. U.S. Customs agents just seem to give everyone a hard time and far too often just act like hostile jerks, even to their own citizens. I can't tell you how often I've gotten the 20 questions routine, even when it was clear that they were just going to let me in anyway.

There is also the matter of the attitude you note, the "why DID you go to Canada?" questions that seem to presume that anyone who leaves the U.S. is up to something nefarious. Part of the problem here is that a lot of the Customs agents at our local crossings aren't from around here and don't seem to understand that people in this area have been crossing that border for all kinds of reasons [[work, shopping, gambling, partying, eating, the "ballet", or just looking around) for most of their lives. So they seem to waste a lot of time on just the sort of petty faux-macho intimidation that chases people away.

Just a few weeks ago at the tunnel I got a guy who, after noting that my passport had been used at that crossing several times, started to quiz me on every instance I had crossed in the last couple of years, and expressed shock that I actually [[horrors) admitted to having relatives in Canada. He also didn't seem to believe that I, a white middle-aged guy, lived in the actual City of Detroit, and then asked me several times how much cash I had on me [[so I pulled it out of my pocket and counted it for him, which didn't make him happy). Of course, he may have become a bit more pissed off because his obvious southern hillbilly hick accent made it difficult for me not to laugh at him. But he held up everyone for about 10 minutes or more for this before, inevitably, he let me pass.

If you have no compelling reason to go to Canada, who the hell needs a hassle like that? Or even the possibility of it. Just to go get some Italian food, or whatever. In the end this sort of pointlessly annoying foolishness is costing all of us, on both sides of our supposedly "peaceful" border.