Henderson Goes Nuclear on Kid Rock/Ilitch

**cla1945** · September-05-17, 01:04 PM

[QUOTE=Bham1982;532554]
But many do care when you have a vile racist getting taxpayer subsidies to sell crap in a black city. It's a huge FU to the city and region.
QUOTE]

Kwame didn't say it in so many words, but he sure did it to the many Detroiters who voted him into office more than once. He said FU in a disguised way, he sold a load of crap to the black city, too. He was taking from taxpayers in a big way. So were the many corrupt businessmen and corrupt politicians in Detroit who stole from the city and the region.
He, his mother, father and wife were the biggest, vile racists in Detroit. People need to stop throwing stones at those who wish for better things in Detroit and move on. Detroit will never survive until we all accept each other, whether you like their politics or not. Kid Rock will generate a lot of money for Detroit, and it's desperately needed.

**southen** · September-05-17, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by Bigdd

Because YOU think of everything in terms of race,.. doesn't mean all white people do.

The U.S.A. is a place where a person of color is most likely to be able to achieve his/her dreams. And this guy has the nerve to disrespect our flag and anthem.

Very misplaced protest. On top of that,.. he's not on his dime. When he's in the stadium on game day,.. he's being paid by the franchise to represent that franchise. He also represents the owner, the city and the fans. It's not HIS time to use for his personal beliefs. Yet he uses THAT platform to push his own personal agenda. Not illegal,.. but also not smart.

He's rich and famous. For sure if he wanted to ACTUALLY make some change,.. he could start a protest, hold a press conference, start a foundation, donate his time, money or both to a cause or lobbying group etc. That could have actually made some difference.

But instead he chooses to insult his country's flag and anthem,.. a country that did nothing to him except allow him to get rich.

THAT'S what people have against Kapernik. The sooner you can understand that, the sooner you'll understand that not everyone is racists like you.

And yes, I live and own and operate businesses in Detroit. I employ Detoiters, and pay a lot of taxes here.

Oh I am racist? Ok. The blatant hypocrisy must be lost on you.

I don't think of everything in terms of race, I just have the ability to acknowledge that it exists and is still a problem we face.

Do we live in the same country? The US trails much of the world in upward mobility and that number is even worse for people of color. He made his money because of his athletic ability, not because the US is giving him so much opportunity.

Colin was paid to play football. Where in that does it say he has to stand for a song? A song which just so happens to have references to slavery in it... Also im sure when you are at a ballgame you are out there yelling at all of the people talking, drinking beer and just outright ignoring the anthem while in attendance. You do that right? Or is it just disrespectful to quietly take a knee on the field?

Oh and since you are so enlightened on what he has been up to besides starting a nationwide conversation, Colin has been quite charitable as well.

https://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2017...test-donations

http://people.com/sports/colin-kaepe...o-ex-convicts/

That doesn't quite fit your narrative though, does it? Im not surprised that you are so butt hurt about this that you fail to look into what he has done which has been to start a foundation, speak to the press, donate his time and money and has made a difference.

Maybe next time you are at a game you will call out the guy stuffing his face with nachos as well as the athlete quietly taking a knee who has donated a million dollars to the cause he is trying to bring light to.

**Maof** · September-05-17, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by 1953

I canceled my Detroit newspapers this week because I couldn't take all the articles that claim this and that are racist. Everyone needs to chill the heck out.

So very true.

**SyGolden48236** · September-05-17, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by GPCharles

I am looking for a simple read on TIF financing to share with everyone. The misconceptions as to how it works that are consistently spouted on this forum are shocking.

Charles, that is because there are many extreme leftists on this forum who denigrate successful people, corporations, etc. Hating corporations and the wealthy is a way of life for many millennials. Sadly, they have been brainwashed.

Please see my brief and simplified explanation of Tax Increment Financing in post # 11 in this thread. No city of Detroit general fun tax money was spent on the arena. And absolutely zero tax dollars collected outside of a one square mile area of the central business district downtown went to the DDA. That means that NO TAX MONEY FROM THE NEIGHBORHOODS IN THAT CITY WENT TO THE DDA, AND THUS TO THE ARENA.

From an artice in Crains Detroit Business 9/21/2014:

The DDA is the city of Detroit's economic development agency that supports project developments. It was created in 1978. The nonprofit Detroit Economic Growth Corp.staffs the DDA under a contract with the city. The DDA has used it tax capture powers to fund downtown projects such as construction of the Millender Center, Riverfront Towers, One Detroit Center and 150 West Jefferson. Property owners within the DDA district pay a 1 mill property tax to fund the basic operation of the DDA.

The DDA has a roughly 1-square-mile development district encompassing much of the downtown, and expanded last year to include the arena site. The increased value of taxes already paid by property owners within that district are captured by the DDA for economic development use within the district, better known as tax incremental financing. The DDA captures the entire increased value of properties in its district.

State law requires the money be spent on economic improvement projects within the district, and the state Legislature in December 2012 modified the DDA's structure to permit it to use its tax capture for the arena's bond debt repayment.

The people who constantly wail and gnash their teeth on here over big projects getting government assistance are ignorant of how large scale projects are made possible. In the case of LCA they also refuse to acknowledge that the Ilitch organization ponied up more than $500 million for this project. They also are ignorant of the fact that TIF funds, by law, cannot be used to fund police, schools, fire, etc. But why would they want to let facts get in the way of their self-righteous and smug rant.

**Richard** · September-05-17, 03:01 PM

It was nice of them to donate $500 million to their project.

To say it is not taxpayer funded is a play on words,it is funded by tax revenues that would be collected in the future.

X amount of money to be collected from future taxes is now locked into a single project.So what is left for infrastructure,beautification projects etc. but to increase taxes to pay for those.

You are still borrowing money from the taxpayer based on what may be generated in the future.

Captures the entire increased value of the properties in its district.

So instead of improving a district and raising its tax value to build up the coffers for the entire city with increased tax value,you are creating a future dead zone by removing that value.

Tax capture does work to spurn investments,but I think if somebody actually mapped what mass now encompasses tax capture districts it may end up hurting the city long term.

These are not short term captures they will effect the city 10-20 years down the road.

**Bigdd** · September-05-17, 03:27 PM

They may be looking at it like,... "we increase the tax base by more than the amount of tax revenue going to the DDA,.. therefore on balance,.. it doesn't cost the neighborhoods anything". Who knows how the actual math will work out.

Then there's the concept of critical mass [[just the term I use).

A football stadium does almost nothing for a city. There's only 8 home games a year. [[Yes, there's other events,.. but they could take place elsewhere).

But baseball,.. that's another story. 81 some home games a year. Now you can almost support some restaurants and bars in the area.

Now,... add hockey and basketball,... EACH with 40+ home games a year,.. and suddenly yo're in business. [[Especially if they can share the cost of a staduim,.. and the required parking).

Now you have 171+ major sporting events in the downtown area.

Add in the concerts, festivals etc and you have a vibrant downtown that can support lots of other businesses.

You have to do what's necessary to get tto that critical mass. The metro Detroit area is one of the few that have all 4 major sports. And with the Fox, Orchestra Hall etc all having been re-done,.. things are looking bright down here.

**SyGolden48236** · September-05-17, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by Bigdd

You have to do what's necessary to get to that critical mass. The metro Detroit area is one of the few that have all 4 major sports. And with the Fox, Orchestra Hall etc all having been re-done,.. things are looking bright down here.

Yeah... but... but... but Kid Rock said a nasty thing to colin Kaepernick and... and... and a little bit of tax money was used toward a project spearheaded by a poopy faced billionaire. It not fair!!!!!!!

**Bham1982** · September-05-17, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by SyGolden48236

Yeah... but... but... but Kid Rock said a nasty thing to colin Kaepernick and... and... and a little bit of tax money was used toward a project spearheaded by a poopy faced billionaire. It not fair!!!!!!!

"little bit of tax money" = $324 million in taxpayer funds, much of which would have gone to schoolchidren

How dare the rabble speak up against their overlords...

**Richard** · September-05-17, 03:46 PM

Good points.bigDD

The problem becomes for the non sports type,it spurns investment and redevelopment and residuals.

Then there is the non essentials like public transportation,infrastructure,schools etc. which require more taxes and increment funding,but does not seem to garner the same support as a sports event.

So the goal is by spurning that development you are increasing tax base outside of the original investment to pay for the others,or hedgeing on the economy to support new investments to pay for future investment.

**Bham1982** · September-05-17, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by Richard

So the goal is by spurning that development you are increasing tax base outside of the original investment to pay for the others,or hedgeing on the economy to support new investments to pay for future investment.

When, in the history of humanity, has a city's tax base been revitalized via construction of sports arenas?

**SyGolden48236** · September-05-17, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

"little bit of tax money" = $324 million in taxpayer funds, much of which would have gone to schoolchidren

What you fail to comprehend is that the tax money allocated to the arena was from TIF funds. TIF FUNDS CANNOT BE USED FOR SCHOOLS, POLICE, FIRE ETC. THEY MUST BE USED FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT.

**Bham1982** · September-05-17, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by SyGolden48236

What you fail to comprehend is that the tax money allocated to the arena was from TIF funds. TIF FUNDS CANNOT BE USED FOR SCHOOLS, POLICE, FIRE ETC. THEY MUST BE USED FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT.

You do realize that writing something in red doesn't make it true, right?

You're confusing all sorts of things. Yes, TIF money can't be used directly on public education, but A. We aren't talking about TIF money and B. Subsidizing an arena isn't "economic development".

Taxpayer money for the arena came from a variety of sources, including public education funding.

**Richard** · September-05-17, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

When, in the history of humanity, has a city's tax base been revitalized via construction of sports arenas?

Well the aurgument for the other cities is,we are placing this arena in a run down part that nobody wants to live safely in anyways,so they buy it.

In this case,if it actually becomes an entertainment district and destination outside of being sports only and is operational 365 then it will be different and high odds of being successful.

As a stand alone sports arena,then yes it would mirror every other one in the country sitting there doing nothing outside of a game.

But I could be biased,the last game I went to was 1973 and watching the Vikings play in -25 sitting on a freezing concrete bleacher in a Minneapolis snowstorm.

Areanas are more so a local wow factor and outside of the owners are not really supposed to be revenue generators,Detroit does kinda have an opportunity to change that perception and show the rest of the country how to make it work,if it is not to late.

It is kinda like supporting the arts,it may not be your cup of tea,but combined and by design they are meant to appease a broad range of citizens so they can enjoy what makes a diverse and desirable place to live.

Stadiums just seem to take on an abandoned mall look when not in use.

**SammyS** · September-05-17, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by cla1945

Originally Posted by Bham1982

But many do care when you have a vile racist getting taxpayer subsidies to sell crap in a black city. It's a huge FU to the city and region.

Kwame didn't say it in so many words, but he sure did it to the many Detroiters who voted him into office more than once. He said FU in a disguised way, he sold a load of crap to the black city, too. He was taking from taxpayers in a big way. So were the many corrupt businessmen and corrupt politicians in Detroit who stole from the city and the region.
He, his mother, father and wife were the biggest, vile racists in Detroit. People need to stop throwing stones at those who wish for better things in Detroit and move on. Detroit will never survive until we all accept each other, whether you like their politics or not. Kid Rock will generate a lot of money for Detroit, and it's desperately needed.

Thank you. This discussion is becoming quite divisive.

Somebody please educate me on this, seriously.

When did Detroit become a black city? Was it when the population tipped the scales or when the majority of leadership became black?

Are the blacks content with the state of affairs since it became a "black city"? Are they content with their leadership of the past?

When was Detroit regarded the peak for black equality, inclusion and justice?

**gumby** · September-05-17, 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by Bigdd

The point is,.. very few Detroit have real skin in the game. If you don't help pay Detroit's bills,.. then yes,.,. I don't want to hear your mouth move. Your opinion is worthless.

Not like their children's future mean anything huh?

I cannot stand pricks like you who shit on people just because they rent their homes. Pretty sure we stopped the practice of only letting white land owners be the only people with a vote.

**archfan** · September-06-17, 01:36 AM

Crain's wrote this article in 2014 about the sources of funding for the arena. It sounds to me like everyone's a little bit right, and a little bit wrong:

- If the DDA didn't exist, those DDA tax captures would go to DPS, along with the city, and Wayne County and whoever else normally collects taxes.
- But, since the DDA does exist, it is only allowed to spend that money on economic development projects within the DDA's area, so they couldn't be used for schools without changing the law.

**gnome** · September-06-17, 07:47 AM

Keep up the fight, Southen, you are doing a fine job.

In the interest of clarity both Mr Richie and Mr Henderson have biracial children. Mr Henderson was married when he had the children; Mr Richie learned of the birth of his child after being served with papers.

I think arguing about the TIF is counterproductive. Until voters elect folks who want to reverse that law, it will stay in place and will continue to be used as the DDA deems appropriate.

Also, the TIF isn't germane to the conversation of whether or not Mr Richie is the right person to open PizzaVille. The TIF is its own special topic and one which is rife with have-vs-have-not arguments.

I will give Mr Richie the benefit of the doubt regarding his personal feelings on racial animus. However, he has been an excellent dog whisperer to his throngs of fans. His unique brand of hoe-down rap and southern-rebellious-dontgiveafuckery appeals to a segment of the population who care about tattooing their skin and cars. I don't hold any hope that those folks will ever change as they love their self-identity as outsiders.

Much can be said about the Mr Richie fan. The identity of being The Outsider is worthy of much study. It is that identity that has been a part of Americanism for a long time.

I need to run but I must say, with few exceptions, this discussion has been an interesting read. I believe Southen is closer to the truth than others. I have seen him grow into a real force within his profession. He has stayed in Detroit when others at his skill level have fled to NY or LA. He is part of positive change in the City and has been a backer without being a sycophant.

In short, racism is real in America. That is a fact. It should not be condoned, supported nor given succor by folks who know better. In fact, it can be said, if you don't think you are a racist, that is proof you are one.

**EastsideAl** · September-06-17, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Cliffy

Pretty sad area we live in where trash like Kid Rock is popular.

And the white trashiness is fake, but the idiocy and the pandering to ignorance [[and the inexplicable popularity) are all too real.

**aj3647** · September-06-17, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Bigdd

He's rich and famous. For sure if he wanted to ACTUALLY make some change,.. he could start a protest, hold a press conference, start a foundation, donate his time, money or both to a cause or lobbying group etc. That could have actually made some difference.

Colin Kaepernick literally did every single one of those things that you incorrectly implied he didn't do.

Press conference:
http://ninerswire.usatoday.com/2017/...-week-17-loss/

Start a foundation:
https://www.sbnation.com/2017/8/23/1...ole-and-others

Donate his money:
https://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2017...test-donations

Donate his time:
https://www.ninersnation.com/2013/6/...ctures-charity

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.c076dd44812d

**Scottathew** · September-06-17, 04:21 PM

I don't like Kid Rock. I don't like his hillbilly\confederate flag brand. I don't like his music. I don't like people who pretend to or actually run as republicans.

I also don't care if he's the first act at LCA. Hopefully they can have as many event as possible there to bring people, money, and jobs to Detroit.

I don't think there's anything special about him being first. I care more about the first hockey game there, and I'm hoping for a strong win for the Red Wings.

I can certainly understand and respect the feelings of folks that don't like to see him performing at LCA. Kid Rock has used the same symbols as people who hate black people use.

LCA will have a lot of events, and I'm sure they'll have some that are much more popular within the black community and non-hillbilly communities.

**Bigdd** · September-06-17, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by aj3647

Colin Kaepernick literally did every single one of those things that you incorrectly implied he didn't do.

Press conference:
http://ninerswire.usatoday.com/2017/...-week-17-loss/

Start a foundation:
https://www.sbnation.com/2017/8/23/1...ole-and-others

Donate his money:
https://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2017...test-donations

Donate his time:
https://www.ninersnation.com/2013/6/...ctures-charity

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.c076dd44812d

The first three of those articles are from this year. Long AFTER he insulted the entire country.

My point was,.. he should have done those things instead of insulting the country,.. not after [[perhaps to try to make up?)

Most people are so turned off by him that they won't appreciate what he's doing,.. and many well-to-do folks wont jump in with financial support for his causes when they otherwise might have.

I don't hate the guy at all,.. but like most,.. I found his acts disrespectful. It wasn't a smart move. It hurt him AND the people he wants to help.

**southen** · September-06-17, 05:07 PM

He insulted people whose only concept of patriotism is standing for a song before grown men play a child's game.

**canuck** · September-06-17, 06:15 PM

Chris Rock and Kid Rock are bruvvahs.

**canuck** · September-06-17, 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by southen

He insulted people whose only concept of patriotism is standing for a song before grown men play a child's game.

See, that's the thing with the right wingy guys. Where is that gray area that they defend when the neos and phosphorescent white supremos demonstrate. All Kaepernick did was annul the Nationalist all-for-one sentiment and substitute it for individual expression, and that is an insult. They will tolerate Neo Nazi and Neo Confederate bullseye and blame this lone black guy for an act of withdrawal from approving the current state of his country. They admire the bravado Kid Rock displays when draping his stage with the Con Flag, that is not to be construed a slap to descendants of slaves, but refusing to stand up and sing the anthem is an insult to the country...

**SyGolden48236** · September-07-17, 05:51 AM

Originally Posted by gnome

In fact, it can be said, if you don't think you are a racist, that is proof you are one.

Do you understand how astoundingly ridiculous that statement is? That is akin to saying about a person who never consumes alcohol, it can be said that if you don't think you're an alcoholic, that is proof that you are one.