Use of Taser by MSP trooper questioned

[Honky Tonk]

The second and fourth vehicles are definitely NOT "pedal cars", in fact they look an awful lot like battery-powered mini-ATVs, wouldn't you say?

My nephews had one of those battery powered cars years ago when they were young. Capable of speeds up to 2 mph. Mute point.

Who says the street is closed off for a block party? Where'd you see that in the photo?

You don't get out much, do you? You think these kids drew that starting line in the middle of Woodward after a Tigers game?

Where'd you get the notion that Damon Grimes was "weaving in and out of traffic" when he was shot?

I never said that "Damon Grimes was weaving in and out of traffic", you made that up. BUT "Witnesses said the teen was trying to get onto the sidewalk when he hit the pickup truck." Troll On!

[aj3647]

My nephews had one of those battery powered cars years ago when they were young. Capable of speeds up to 2 mph. Mute point.

Do you mean moot point?

You don't get out much, do you? You think these kids drew that starting line in the middle of Woodward after a Tigers game?

And was Damon Grimes riding his ATV in the middle of Woodward after a Tigers game, or in a low-traffic residential street?

I never said that "Damon Grimes was weaving in and out of traffic", you made that up. BUT "Witnesses said the teen was trying to get onto the sidewalk when he hit the pickup truck." Troll On!

You literally said just that, word for fucking word. That was a direct fucking quote from you.

ATVs out on a public thoroughfare, weaving in and out of traffic

Witnesses said the teen was TRYING to get onto the sidewalk? That's odd Honkey Tonk, because you said he was already ON the sidewalk. So how could he be trying to get on the sidewalk when he was already on it? Must be magic!

Keep on lying though, it really shows the type of person you are.

[Honky Tonk]

Do you mean moot point?



And was Damon Grimes riding his ATV in the middle of Woodward after a Tigers game, or in a low-traffic residential street?




You literally said just that, word for fucking word. That was a direct fucking quote from you.



Witnesses said the teen was TRYING to get onto the sidewalk? That's odd Honkey Tonk, because you said he was already ON the sidewalk. So how could he be trying to get on the sidewalk when he was already on it? Must be magic!

Keep on lying though, it really shows the type of person you are.

You have no idea what you're talking about. You twist things around on every post. You need to take a remedial reading comprehension class. I never fight a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

[Meddle]

Do we know for sure where the kid was riding? I don't watch web videos, so if there is a dash cam video, I haven't seen it. I try to ask questions before making conclusive statements.

Do we know what his background is? Has he had trouble before?

[Meddle]

Some searching hasn't found anything on the kid's history, but I did find this:

Detroit police Chief James Craig said during a news conference Monday his department will launch an independent investigation.

"I am not a proponent of high-speed chases involving traffic infractions, or those involving misdemeanors," Craig said.

Craig said the investigation in no way negatively reflects on MSP, but that a situation such as this warrants an independent investigation.

And some comments from Duggan and others supporting regulations on chases:

https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/...rooper-pursued

I also see the Trooper's history and what appear to be 'buy offs' of the lawsuits filed -- out of court settlements. All indications so far tell me the Trooper fits the 'thug' definition above more than the kid.

[erikd]

It's too bad in today's world you don't have parents that are properly raising their children.

Yeah, all this crime is happening because parents in today's world aren't raising their kids right! That must be why crime rates in the US have dropped by half over the last 25 years, and are now back to the level they were 50 years ago.

Remember the good old days in 1963, when the crime rate began to skyrocket? And who could forget that wonderful 20 year period of peak crime rates between 1972 and 1992? That was back when people were raising their kids properly, and the American public respected law and order.

The fact that the crime rate has dropped by half over the last 25 years is proof that things are out of control in today's world, and parents aren't raising their children properly!

Honky Tonk, please tell us younger folks more about how we can reverse this terrible trend of bad parenting in today's world that has resulted in these outrageous levels of crime. It is a disgrace that Americans nowadays are only committing crimes at half the rate that they did 30 - 40 years ago!

[Maof]

Yeah, all this crime is happening because parents in today's world aren't raising their kids right! That must be why crime rates in the US have dropped by half over the last 25 years, and are now back to the level they were 50 years ago.

Remember the good old days in 1963, when the crime rate began to skyrocket? And who could forget that wonderful 20 year period of peak crime rates between 1972 and 1992? That was back when people were raising their kids properly, and the American public respected law and order.

The fact that the crime rate has dropped by half over the last 25 years is proof that things are out of control in today's world, and parents aren't raising their children properly!

Honky Tonk, please tell us younger folks more about how we can reverse this terrible trend of bad parenting in today's world that has resulted in these outrageous levels of crime. It is a disgrace that Americans nowadays are only committing crimes at half the rate that they did 30 - 40 years ago!

Although, we don't know if the parents have property elsewhere intended to drive this type of vehicle but, if i'm living in a residential area, I'm not going to purchase my kid an ATV to cruise the neighborhood. I'm assuming this is why HT made that statement. But still, how the cop handled the situation, was wrong.

[Honky Tonk]

Yeah, all this crime is happening because parents in today's world aren't raising their kids right! That must be why crime rates in the US have dropped by half over the last 25 years, and are now back to the level they were 50 years ago.

Remember the good old days in 1963, when the crime rate began to skyrocket? And who could forget that wonderful 20 year period of peak crime rates between 1972 and 1992? That was back when people were raising their kids properly, and the American public respected law and order.

The fact that the crime rate has dropped by half over the last 25 years is proof that things are out of control in today's world, and parents aren't raising their children properly!

Honky Tonk, please tell us younger folks more about how we can reverse this terrible trend of bad parenting in today's world that has resulted in these outrageous levels of crime. It is a disgrace that Americans nowadays are only committing crimes at half the rate that they did 30 - 40 years ago!

Good Morning erikd, Per M-Live "Damon's father, John Hughes, who gave Damon the ATV he was riding at the time of his death". I don't think my father would have bought me a vehicle, and encouraged me to ride it illegally on public streets. He also, sure as hell, wouldn't encourage me to take evasive action if confronted by the police. What would have happened if Damon would have stopped? Arrest? Confiscation of ATV? Stiff fine? Any of that would have been better, and less conclusive, then the results of the action Damon did choose. I watched the videos in Post#4, and I see [[30-40?) kids weaving in and out of traffic, recklessly riding across public sidewalks with pedestrians standing nearby. The second video shot in Detroit shows more of the same, taunting motorists, running red lights, etc. More good parenting? Your kid comes home with a hopped-up ATV and tells you he/she uses it to go to the library for research? So, "crime rates in the US have dropped by half over the last 25 years", specifically Detroit, DC, where? I'd be happy to look @ any stats, graphs, or pie charts you might have showing a direct correlation between this National drop in crime and responsible parenting. By the way, I don't agree with the trooper tasing Damon, but I also don't think kids and parents should be allowed to run rampant and without repercussions.

[erikd]

Good Morning erikd, Per M-Live "Damon's father, John Hughes, who gave Damon the ATV he was riding at the time of his death". I don't think my father would have bought me a vehicle, and encouraged me to ride it illegally on public streets. He also, sure as hell, wouldn't encourage me to take evasive action if confronted by the police. What would have happened if Damon would have stopped? Arrest? Confiscation of ATV? Stiff fine? Any of that would have been better, and less conclusive, then the results of the action Damon did choose. I watched the videos in Post#4, and I see [[30-40?) kids weaving in and out of traffic, recklessly riding across public sidewalks with pedestrians standing nearby. The second video shot in Detroit shows more of the same, taunting motorists, running red lights, etc. More good parenting? Your kid comes home with a hopped-up ATV and tells you he/she uses it to go to the library for research? So, "crime rates in the US have dropped by half over the last 25 years", specifically Detroit, DC, where? I'd be happy to look @ any stats, graphs, or pie charts you might have showing a direct correlation between this National drop in crime and responsible parenting. By the way, I don't agree with the trooper tasing Damon, but I also don't think kids and parents should be allowed to run rampant and without repercussions.

I agree with most of what you are saying here, with the exception of your assertions that this is some kind of new problem that is due to "parents not raising their children properly" in "today's world."

To be sure, there are a lot of parents who are not raising their children properly in today's world, but the evidence suggests that there were far more parents not raising their children properly 30-40 years ago.

[erikd]

So, "crime rates in the US have dropped by half over the last 25 years", specifically Detroit, DC, where? I'd be happy to look @ any stats, graphs, or pie charts you might have showing a direct correlation between this National drop in crime and responsible parenting.

Here are some statistics for you:

I ran a report from the FBI's Uniform Crime Reporting database showing the violent crime rate in the United States from 1960-2014 [[the most recent year in their database)

As the results show, violent crime rates in the US started to skyrocket in the mid 1960s. The violent crime rate DOUBLED from 1965 to 1971, and continued to dramatically increase until it peaked in 1991. From 1991 to present, the violent crime rate has plummeted. In 2014, the violent crime rate was HALF of what it was in 1991, and the lowest rate since 1970.

I don't have a statistic that measures "responsible parenting", so I can't say that this dramatic decrease in violent crime rates is due to parents raising their children better nowadays.

What I can say for certain is that you are absolutely incorrect in your assertion of crime being worse now than it was in decades past because "in today's world you don't have parents that are properly raising their children."

Anecdotal stories about a bad parents in 2017 and good parents in 1970 -1990 don't stand as evidence of anything. The vast majority of parents in 2017, 1970, or 1990 didn't let their kids run wild and commit crimes, and in today's society, the bad kids and bad parents only cause and commit half the amount of crime as they did in the good old days.

https://www.ucrdatatool.gov/Search/C...dsInOneVar.cfm

Year	United States-Total
1960	160.9
1961	158.1
1962	162.3
1963	168.2
1964	190.6
1965	200.2
1966	220
1967	253.2
1968	298.4
1969	328.7
1970	363.5
1971	396
1972	401
1973	417.4
1974	461.1
1975	487.8
1976	467.8
1977	475.9
1978	497.8
1979	548.9
1980	596.6
1981	593.5
1982	570.8
1983	538.1
1984	539.9
1985	558.1
1986	620.1
1987	612.5
1988	640.6
1989	666.9
1990	729.6
1991	758.2
1992	757.7
1993	747.1
1994	713.6
1995	684.5
1996	636.6
1997	611
1998	567.6
1999	523
2000	506.5
2001	504.5
2002	494.4
2003	475.8
2004	463.2
2005	469
2006	479.3
2007	471.8
2008	458.6
2009	431.9
2010	404.5
2011	387.1
2012	387.8
2013	379.1
2014	375.7

[Honky Tonk]

Here are some statistics for you:

I ran a report from the FBI's Uniform Crime Reporting database showing the violent crime rate in the United States from 1960-2014 [[the most recent year in their database)

As the results show, violent crime rates in the US started to skyrocket in the mid 1960s. The violent crime rate DOUBLED from 1965 to 1971, and continued to dramatically increase until it peaked in 1991. From 1991 to present, the violent crime rate has plummeted. In 2014, the violent crime rate was HALF of what it was in 1991, and the lowest rate since 1970.

I don't have a statistic that measures "responsible parenting", so I can't say that this dramatic decrease in violent crime rates is due to parents raising their children better nowadays.

What I can say for certain is that you are absolutely incorrect in your assertion of crime being worse now than it was in decades past because "in today's world you don't have parents that are properly raising their children."

Anecdotal stories about a bad parents in 2017 and good parents in 1970 -1990 don't stand as evidence of anything. The vast majority of parents in 2017, 1970, or 1990 didn't let their kids run wild and commit crimes, and in today's society, the bad kids and bad parents only cause and commit half the amount of crime as they did in the good old days.

https://www.ucrdatatool.gov/Search/C...dsInOneVar.cfm

Year	United States-Total
1960	160.9
1961	158.1
1962	162.3
1963	168.2
1964	190.6
1965	200.2
1966	220
1967	253.2
1968	298.4
1969	328.7
1970	363.5
1971	396
1972	401
1973	417.4
1974	461.1
1975	487.8
1976	467.8
1977	475.9
1978	497.8
1979	548.9
1980	596.6
1981	593.5
1982	570.8
1983	538.1
1984	539.9
1985	558.1
1986	620.1
1987	612.5
1988	640.6
1989	666.9
1990	729.6
1991	758.2
1992	757.7
1993	747.1
1994	713.6
1995	684.5
1996	636.6
1997	611
1998	567.6
1999	523
2000	506.5
2001	504.5
2002	494.4
2003	475.8
2004	463.2
2005	469
2006	479.3
2007	471.8
2008	458.6
2009	431.9
2010	404.5
2011	387.1
2012	387.8
2013	379.1
2014	375.7

Too bad your boatload of statistics shows no correlation with "better parenting". I could take those same statistics and make the argument that opioid use is up, therefore people are more passive and less prone to violent behavior. It means nothing.

[aj3647]

You have no idea what you're talking about. You twist things around on every post. You need to take a remedial reading comprehension class. I never fight a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

If you can't dispute my points, then just say so. But by all means, lash out with personal insults.

Here's a video of two white boys going "ATV sledding" in a public street. Please tell me which part of their bodies you would most like to see these two terrorist thugs be tasered in. Face? Balls? Or maybe skip the taser entirely and just take them out with bullets, you know, to protect pedestrians. I mean, surely you would agree that the activity in the below video presents an immediately life-threatening danger to the general public, thus necessitating the use of lethal force.

https://youtu.be/rNlTH0q8zJc?t=12m52s

[Richard]

If they were wearing proper safety gear,helmet,you could not taser them in the head.

If they were properly seated while operating the atv,it would be hard to taser them in the nether regions.

If they were properly operating a for off road use only atv,meaning not for use on public streets there would be no reason to use the taser to begin with and it would be a non issue.

It seems to be complicated.

But then again I think the answer is to give all of the 750,000 officers in the country 3 weeks vacation at the same time in order to allow for some reflection.

[Wheels]

If you can't dispute my points, then just say so. But by all means, lash out with personal insults.

Here's a video of two white boys going "ATV sledding" in a public street. Please tell me which part of their bodies you would most like to see these two terrorist thugs be tasered in. Face? Balls? Or maybe skip the taser entirely and just take them out with bullets, you know, to protect pedestrians. I mean, surely you would agree that the activity in the below video presents an immediately life-threatening danger to the general public, thus necessitating the use of lethal force.

https://youtu.be/rNlTH0q8zJc?t=12m52s

Show me the video where the police tried to stop them and they totally disregarded them and wrecklessly raged on! You seem to be missing the main element of this tragedy.

[Zacha341]

Well we know that [[vacation) would not be a good time as an extreme response. I'm not anti LEO reflexively as you see in some cases.

However, the first points remain: the boy was misusing the vehicle. Got that. And this particular officer in addressing that shot a taser out of a moving squad car at an also 'moving' target which at best was not accurate use of the device. And inappropriate use [[as the MSP have stated).

And the resultant outcome highly unpredictable -- bowed very badly.

No surprise there.

....But then again I think the answer is to give all of the 750,000 officers in the country 3 weeks vacation at the same time in order to allow for some reflection.

[Honky Tonk]

Here are some statistics for you:

I ran a report from the FBI's Uniform Crime Reporting database showing the violent crime rate in the United States from 1960-2014 [[the most recent year in their database)

As the results show, violent crime rates in the US started to skyrocket in the mid 1960s. The violent crime rate DOUBLED from 1965 to 1971, and continued to dramatically increase until it peaked in 1991. From 1991 to present, the violent crime rate has plummeted. In 2014, the violent crime rate was HALF of what it was in 1991, and the lowest rate since 1970.

I don't have a statistic that measures "responsible parenting", so I can't say that this dramatic decrease in violent crime rates is due to parents raising their children better nowadays.

What I can say for certain is that you are absolutely incorrect in your assertion of crime being worse now than it was in decades past because "in today's world you don't have parents that are properly raising their children."

Anecdotal stories about a bad parents in 2017 and good parents in 1970 -1990 don't stand as evidence of anything. The vast majority of parents in 2017, 1970, or 1990 didn't let their kids run wild and commit crimes, and in today's society, the bad kids and bad parents only cause and commit half the amount of crime as they did in the good old days.

https://www.ucrdatatool.gov/Search/C...dsInOneVar.cfm

Year	United States-Total
1960	160.9
1961	158.1
1962	162.3
1963	168.2
1964	190.6
1965	200.2
1966	220
1967	253.2
1968	298.4
1969	328.7
1970	363.5
1971	396
1972	401
1973	417.4
1974	461.1
1975	487.8
1976	467.8
1977	475.9
1978	497.8
1979	548.9
1980	596.6
1981	593.5
1982	570.8
1983	538.1
1984	539.9
1985	558.1
1986	620.1
1987	612.5
1988	640.6
1989	666.9
1990	729.6
1991	758.2
1992	757.7
1993	747.1
1994	713.6
1995	684.5
1996	636.6
1997	611
1998	567.6
1999	523
2000	506.5
2001	504.5
2002	494.4
2003	475.8
2004	463.2
2005	469
2006	479.3
2007	471.8
2008	458.6
2009	431.9
2010	404.5
2011	387.1
2012	387.8
2013	379.1
2014	375.7

Here you go, mon. I heard the story on NPR 2 days ago and thought about you.

https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/201...stics-released

[aj3647]

Show me the video where the police tried to stop them and they totally disregarded them and wrecklessly raged on! You seem to be missing the main element of this tragedy.

I will absolutely do that, right after you show me where in the Michigan State Police Academy curriculum or in MSP official department procedure it states that troopers should fire tasers out of the window of a moving vehicle as they are driving it.

You seem to be focusing on what the victim did wrong, and completely ignoring what the [[currently suspended and under investigation) MSP trooper did wrong.

But hey, this kid broke the law, so that justifies this police officer violating his own training and his own department's use of force guidelines. The ends justify the means.

[Meddle]

You seem to be missing the main element of this tragedy.

The main element here is the Trooper's misconduct.

[aj3647]

The main element here is the Trooper's misconduct.

To some here, the only person who should be punished for their bad decisions is the 15-year old kid. The 30-something year old trained police officer doesn't have to be held accountable for HIS actions, only the child.

The child has paid the ultimate price for his decisions...he's dead. Now I want the trooper to face the consequences for his decisions. But that's too much to ask for some here. Nope, some would rather flog the corpse of a dead child and demean everyone associated with that child before they utter one cross word about a white police officer.

[rex]

IDK if its been mentioned but the MSP will no longer be patrolling the precinct

[aj3647]

UPDATE: The MSP trooper who tasered 15-year old Damon Grimes has resigned from the Michigan State Police.

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in...art_river_home

Meanwhile, the criminal investigation into Trooper Mark Bessner's use of force against Damon Grimes is almost complete and will be turned over the Wayne County Prosecutor's Office. He may soon be facing criminal charges:

" ... Our investigators do feel the investigation supports criminal charges, but that decision will ultimately be made by the Wayne County Prosecutor's Office."

Meanwhile, two additional MSP troopers have been suspended for their role in the incident and its subsequent investigation for allegedly tampering with evidence:

According to a report from George Hunter of the Detroit News, based on several statements from Detroit police, a supervisor took one of the Taser wires that was fired at Grimes from the investigation scene and threw it away at a state police post

[clubboss]

UPDATE: The MSP trooper who tasered 15-year old Damon Grimes has resigned...

Meanwhile, two additional MSP troopers have been suspended for their role in the incident and its subsequent investigation for allegedly tampering with evidence:

Good, he was misplaced in his employment capabilities. Come on Worthy - file on him, and whoever else was involved in this conspiracy.

[clubboss]

Good, he was misplaced in his employment capabilities. Come on Worthy - file on him, and whoever else was involved in this conspiracy.

Finally filed on him, and the idiot offduty DPD
Officer @ Meijer who assaulted an innocent young man.

[softailrider]

That trooper had to know better, he just lost it chasing that kid. A guy in his position, with a sidearm and a taser can’t lose it. That coverup claimed by Fieger really bothers me if true. People who speak about the anti-snitching mentality usually don’t mention that same mentality prevalent when you cross the blue line, seems similar to me.

[aj3647]

Finally filed on him, and the idiot offduty DPD
Officer @ Meijer who assaulted an innocent young man.

To follow-up what clubboss said, former Michigan State Police trooper Mark Bessner has been charged with second-degree murder in the death of 15-year old Damon Grimes.

https://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...atv/968865001/

Go get 'em, Kym!