Use of Taser by MSP trooper questioned

[aj3647]

Police are damned if they do the right thing...damned if they don't do the right thing. I would vote for whatever would stop these idiots from putting others in harms way. By telling the public that there will be no more chases in Detroit is giving speeders, traffic offenders and others carte blanche to run. Would you want to be in the way of a person behind the wheel of a speeding vehicle who doesn't give a damn?

So yes then. If you believe that we should arm police helicopters with hellfire missiles and use them to take out speeders, then just say yes.

Maybe we can put some of those ED-209s from Robocop in school zones too, take out any car that goes faster than 25MPH. You know, to protect the kids. In fact, I don't know if you've seen the movie "Judge Dredd", but maybe we can just transition to having cops being both judge, jury, and executioner all in one. For a safe and secure society!

[Wesley Mouch]

Being the devils advocate here...Has anyone thought about the consequences of this boy driving this ATV at high speeds on the sidewalk trying to elude the police? Children playing, people walking? He could have killed a number of them, simply because he wouldn't stop. Why didn't he stop if he was such a "good, upstanding boy"? The trooper may have been wrong for tasing him while he was chasing him, but the trooper may have saved a lot of lives by doing so. Everyone is so quick to judge and blame law enforcement for trying to do their jobs, making split second decisions and sometimes not following protocol...sometimes to prevent a worse disaster.

cla.... I don't understand why we can't expect police officers to make the best decision, under the worst of circumstances -- in all cases. Sure, its hard to do. So wouldn't it be better policy if they were to always not take action, unless their acts are reviewed in advance? Sports have instant reply. Police officers now have live video. Couldn't we have a police action review team at HQ who could review the video before officers can act?

I don't see why its so hard to know in a split second what the best course of action is?

[aj3647]

So so it would be better if he just ran over or crashed and killed pedestrians while driving like a maniac?

Here's the weapon of mass destruction he was riding:



It's a Coolster ATV with a 150cc engine. It weighs about 1/8th of a what a Ford Focus weighs and it has a maximum speed of about 45MPH.

But yeah, I'm sure it's going to just MASSACRE pedestrians. It'll be a regular bloodbath on sidewalk when you get hit with that thing.

I'm continually amazed at the people who will twist themselves into knots to defend a cop who violated his own department's use of force policy and was suspended for it. A child is dead, a child, and his crime was a misdemeanor traffic violation. But yeah, keep on justifying it like he was an immediate danger and needed to be put down.

cla.... I don't understand why we can't expect police officers to make the best decision, under the worst of circumstances -- in all cases.

Under the "worst of circumstances?" It was a kid riding an ATV in the street, not the fucking Boston Marathon bombing. Yeah, crime of the century here, I'm sure the cop was in immediate fear for his life and thus had to make a split-second decision under extreme stress. Maybe he should have called in SWAT to take down this terrorist instead.

How is "not firing a taser out of the window of a moving car" considered an unrealistic expectation of "making the best decision at all times?" Some people would consider not firing a taser out of the window of a moving car to actually be a very easy and common sense thing to do. At some point, this cop's brain actually generated the idea that "you know what? I should take my taser out and shoot this kid through the window while I am simultaneously attempting to drive a motor vehicle." I would suggest that such a thought should never even enter the brain of any halfway-intelligent human being as something that would be a GOOD idea.

But you're right, we shouldn't judge the police or expect them to obey their own department's policies or follow their own training. That's a completely unreasonable expectation to have. Instead, when they needlessly kill children, we should just shrug our shoulders and say "meh, mistakes happen!"

[1953]

I think its like the old adage, "If you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

Or, in this case, "If you spend your day apprehending bad guys, you're always trying to do it -- even if, in hindsight, it probably wasn't the soundest judgement."

[aj3647]

Maybe the next time MSP is in a vehicle pursuit, the officer in the passenger seat can lean out of the window with a shotgun and try to shoot out the tires of the fleeing vehicle. Because that sounds like a great idea too. What could go wrong? And remember folks, we're not allowed to second-guess a police officer's actions...ever. They can do whatever they want because they have a tough job and therefore are immune to criticism.

[Wesley Mouch]

...
But you're right, we shouldn't judge the police or expect them to obey their own department's policies or follow their own training. That's a completely unreasonable expectation to have. Instead, when they needlessly kill children, we should just shrug our shoulders and say "meh, mistakes happen!"

So what is the right response when someone flees from cops, in your opinion. I get that you don't like what happened here. So what would your policy be?

[cla1945]

^^^ It's a bad scene and the increasing lawlessness on the roads has impacted my driving habits. I try to combine as many trips as possible and stay off the roads. Too many folks running lights with impunity -- while staring into a phone, texting or just as dare, whatever.

I would not want to be a law enforcement officer in these times. The rouge officers make it bad for all.

There are bad apples in every job, unfortunately when a cop turns rogue it reflects on LEO's everywhere. Believe me, 99% want to protect and serve the public. They want to do a good job. People today have no respect for Police. They argue, don't comply, spit in their faces, swear at them, and call their Momma every sort of name in the book...and these officers have to take it without emotion, without remarks. They are trained to take abuse from the public because that's the way it is today. After some time, it gets very hard for them to do that, sometimes they will use a bit of excessive force on someone who just kicked them in the family jewels. No, there is no excuse for excessive force, but with adrenaline pumping from a 10 or 15 mile chase at 100 MPH on a city street, it's not easy to come down in a split second...and sometimes that's all the time they have to make a life or death decision. I've said it 100 times before, the cops are the ones who are being handcuffed, not the criminals.

[cla1945]

So yes then. If you believe that we should arm police helicopters with hellfire missiles and use them to take out speeders, then just say yes.

Maybe we can put some of those ED-209s from Robocop in school zones too, take out any car that goes faster than 25MPH. You know, to protect the kids. In fact, I don't know if you've seen the movie "Judge Dredd", but maybe we can just transition to having cops being both judge, jury, and executioner all in one. For a safe and secure society!

I won't dignify your 12 year old mentality statement with a reply.

[cla1945]

cla.... I don't understand why we can't expect police officers to make the best decision, under the worst of circumstances -- in all cases. Sure, its hard to do. So wouldn't it be better policy if they were to always not take action, unless their acts are reviewed in advance? Sports have instant reply. Police officers now have live video. Couldn't we have a police action review team at HQ who could review the video before officers can act?

I don't see why its so hard to know in a split second what the best course of action is?

I'm sorry Wesley, but I can't believe you wrote those words. Officers are human beings, after all. They are expected to make split second decisions, to fire, not to fire, to taze, not to taze, to chase, not to chase..all types of decisions. For example, if you have an officer approaching a vehicle and the driver pulls a gun and starts to point it at the officer, should that officer have to wait until some other officer, sitting at a desk in front of a computer screen review the actions and then inform the officer on the street, "yes, you can pull your gun", or "no, retreat and ask him if he has any mental problems, or is he under a doctors care, or has he taken any mind altering drugs in the last 24 hours"?
Sports have instant replay, yes. But while that instant replay is being viewed by the referees, the players can rest, grab a drink of water, go pee, whatever...police officers don't have that luxury. If you have a gun pointed at you, you have to assume the person behind that gun is going to shoot you and you have to act quickly to protect yourself at that point. I carry legally; if anyone would raise an arm with a gun at the end of his hand to shoot me, believe me, I would shoot!

[detroitsgwenivere]

There is no way you'll ever convince me that it's necessary or acceptable to shoot a person operating a moving vehicle, unless that person is using the vehicle as a weapon in a direct attempt to maim other people. This cop disregarded his own department's training to the point that a human being died. He should be fired, and let the courts decide his fate for the death of that boy.

[Honky Tonk]

It's too bad in today's world you don't have parents that are properly raising their children.

[cla1945]

It's too bad in today's world you don't have parents that are properly raising their children.

There you go, you hit the nail squarely on the head! Kudos to you.

[Richard]

Those days are gone,if I go stand in front of a speeding train and get run over the lawyers would be lined up to sue the conductor.

Nobody would say I was a DA for standing in front of the train to begin with.

But I made the decision to stand there and anything that happens after that is on me because I made the decision to knowingly put myself in that position.

Last year here at opening day of the fair a group of teenagers decided to play thug and in a large group were jousting other fair attendees,police were called,they run from the police,one gets away but shoots across the freeway and gets run over dead.

The end result was to sue the police because if they had not chased originaly,he would have never run across the freeway.

[Honky Tonk]

Those days are gone,if I go stand in front of a speeding train and get run over the lawyers would be lined up to sue the conductor.

Nobody would say I was a DA for standing in front of the train to begin with.

But I made the decision to stand there and anything that happens after that is on me because I made the decision to knowingly put myself in that position.

Last year here at opening day of the fair a group of teenagers decided to play thug and in a large group were jousting other fair attendees,police were called,they run from the police,one gets away but shoots across the freeway and gets run over dead.

The end result was to sue the police because if they had not chased originaly,he would have never run across the freeway.

And again, Darwin's theory comes into play.

[Honky Tonk]

Nobody would say I was a DA for standing in front of the train to begin with.

Uh, excuse me, I would...

[aj3647]

So what is the right response when someone flees from cops, in your opinion. I get that you don't like what happened here. So what would your policy be?

It's not my policy, it's the policy that the DPD already has in place and which the MSP have now adopted for themselves as a direct result of this tragedy: no police pursuits for misdemeanor offenses. It's not worth it. A misdemeanor is not worth risking anyone's life over. The kid lived in the neighborhood, it wouldn't have been too difficult to track him down later.

DPD only pursues for felony offenses. MSP have now changed their pursuit policy [[for Detroit only) to no longer pursue for non-felony offenses, just like the DPD. See, pretty simple solution, and I didn't even need to come up with it.

Here, read about it for yourself and decide if you oppose this policy or not:

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...oit/621445001/

[Wheels]

So now the thugs know to just flee because no one will peruse. At least none of them will get hurt anymore!

[aj3647]

So now the thugs know to just flee because no one will peruse. At least none of them will get hurt anymore!

1) Police chases put EVERYONE at risk, including the officer and the general public.
2) If that "thug" committed a violent crime or a felony, he will still be pursued [[not "perused").
3) There are other ways to track and later apprehend a fleeing suspect for a misdemeanor offense that does not involve an extremely dangerous road pursuit. This includes tracking from the sky via helicopter, or something as simple as recording the license plate info so the driver can be identified and apprehended later.

"Police chases often have the potential for tragedy and the difference in the policies of the Detroit Police Department and the Michigan State Police highlight that concern,” Detroit Mayor Mike Duggan said in a statement.

[Honky Tonk]

So now the thugs know to just flee because no one will peruse. At least none of them will get hurt anymore!

They don't pursue misdemeanors, they don't investigate home alarms, they don't show up for accident reports, and who knows what else. About the only thing they seem good for anymore is street crossing sports fans @ the coliseums. Making Detroit great again!

[aj3647]

I won't dignify your 12 year old mentality statement with a reply.

Funny, I was going to say the same thing to you about your hackneyed defense of a police officer firing a taser out of the window of a moving police car, in violation of his own training and department policy, resulting in the death of a child who committed a minor traffic offense.

But by all means, continue your pathetic attempts at justifying this. Because the police are never wrong, ever.

Did you know the MSP trooper involved [[who is currently suspended and facing investigation, BTW) has multiple prior complaints for excessive use of force?

[Meddle]

^^ They usually do. These insanities are often not their first.

[Zacha341]

This is going to be an open and shut case [[well be prepared for the unexpected I always say). I just can't see how the LEO can get off when his own department condemned his actions. As mentioned before what outcome was he expecting, shooting out the window, both vehicles moving.

Taking the emotion out the scenario death and injury was a risk had the Michigan state trooper called off the chase. Death and injury was a risk from his tazer actions as well -- his CHOICE was not SAFER. Absolutely not!

[Wheels]

Here's the weapon of mass destruction he was riding:



It's a Coolster ATV with a 150cc engine. It weighs about 1/8th of a what a Ford Focus weighs and it has a maximum speed of about 45MPH.

But yeah, I'm sure it's going to just MASSACRE pedestrians. It'll be a regular bloodbath on sidewalk when you get hit with that thing.

I'm continually amazed at the people who will twist themselves into knots to defend a cop who violated his own department's use of force policy and was suspended for it. A child is dead, a child, and his crime was a misdemeanor traffic violation. But yeah, keep on justifying it like he was an immediate danger and needed to be put down.



Under the "worst of circumstances?" It was a kid riding an ATV in the street, not the fucking Boston Marathon bombing. Yeah, crime of the century here, I'm sure the cop was in immediate fear for his life and thus had to make a split-second decision under extreme stress. Maybe he should have called in SWAT to take down this terrorist instead.

How is "not firing a taser out of the window of a moving car" considered an unrealistic expectation of "making the best decision at all times?" Some people would consider not firing a taser out of the window of a moving car to actually be a very easy and common sense thing to do. At some point, this cop's brain actually generated the idea that "you know what? I should take my taser out and shoot this kid through the window while I am simultaneously attempting to drive a motor vehicle." I would suggest that such a thought should never even enter the brain of any halfway-intelligent human being as something that would be a GOOD idea.

But you're right, we shouldn't judge the police or expect them to obey their own department's policies or follow their own training. That's a completely unreasonable expectation to have. Instead, when they needlessly kill children, we should just shrug our shoulders and say "meh, mistakes happen!"

Are you really trying to argue the vehicle that this thug crashed and died on could not have killed a pedestrian?

[Meddle]

Are you really trying to argue the vehicle that this thug crashed and died on could not have killed a pedestrian?

Certainly would have been much likely without a pursuit vehicle behind.

Accidents happen often, whether the vehicle involved is legal or not. Even bicycles run into people.

Pursuits raise the risks exponentially.

[detroitsgwenivere]

Are you really trying to argue the vehicle that this thug crashed and died on could not have killed a pedestrian?

Why are you referring to this kid as a thug? Because he wasn't wearing a helmet? Did he have some sort of nefarious backround that no one else knows about?

If you call him that simply because he was riding an ATV in the street, well, I guess a lot of us are thugs then. Do any of you realize how common it is to ride recreational vehicles in the neighborhoods during the summer months? You see mini-rockets, dirt bikes, 3 wheelers, scooters, motorized mini-scooters... whole clubs dedicated to riding small stuff that makes noise. I've ridden in Detroit and exurban neighborhoods. Police were never called, no one cares. Of course, I'm not 15 either so that angle hasn't escaped me. As long as I'm not being a total asshole the only thing DPD will do is either warn me to stay under the speed limit and wear a helmet, or ignore me all together.

On my way to work this week I saw a guy in a suit with a backpack on riding one of those motorized foot scooters on Griswold in traffic. Stopped at the red light and everything. A dozen cops in sight, no one batted an eye.