Use of Taser by MSP trooper questioned

**Zacha341** · September-01-17, 05:26 PM

Well this is going national soon if not all ready....

Trooper responsible for death of teen who fled on ATV, attorney says
http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in..._death_of.html

Vigil for teen killed while fleeing police turns to protest
http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...oit/105142514/

Detroit police Chief James Craig calls alleged use of Taser by MSP trooper inappropriate
https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/...-inappropriate

**Meddle** · September-01-17, 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by Zacha341

[I]Well this is going national soon if not all ready....

Yeah, when King Don gives him a medal of valor.

"Kilt another one! Way To Go! Make America a Police State again"

**cla1945** · September-02-17, 09:06 AM

Being the devils advocate here...Has anyone thought about the consequences of this boy driving this ATV at high speeds on the sidewalk trying to elude the police? Children playing, people walking? He could have killed a number of them, simply because he wouldn't stop. Why didn't he stop if he was such a "good, upstanding boy"? The trooper may have been wrong for tasing him while he was chasing him, but the trooper may have saved a lot of lives by doing so. Everyone is so quick to judge and blame law enforcement for trying to do their jobs, making split second decisions and sometimes not following protocol...sometimes to prevent a worse disaster.

**aj3647** · September-06-17, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by cla1945

Being the devils advocate here...Has anyone thought about the consequences of this boy driving this ATV at high speeds on the sidewalk trying to elude the police? Children playing, people walking? He could have killed a number of them, simply because he wouldn't stop. Why didn't he stop if he was such a "good, upstanding boy"? The trooper may have been wrong for tasing him while he was chasing him, but the trooper may have saved a lot of lives by doing so. Everyone is so quick to judge and blame law enforcement for trying to do their jobs, making split second decisions and sometimes not following protocol...sometimes to prevent a worse disaster.

Devil's advocate here: Should we arm police helicopters and drones with hellfire missiles and use them to take out vehicles that speed or drive recklessly? Think of all the lives they are endangering by going too fast, they could hit someone or run over a pedestrian. By just blowing up speeders with hellfire missiles, the police may save a lot of lives.

**Meddle** · September-06-17, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by aj3647

Devil's advocate here: Should we arm police helicopters and drones with hellfire missiles and use them to take out vehicles that speed or drive recklessly? Think of all the lives they are endangering by going too fast, they could hit someone or run over a pedestrian.

Chases should be outlawed with exceptions for felony subjects. Once a chase begins, the fleeing driver tends to get scared [[or determined) and far more reckless/dangerous. Plus, instead of one speeding vehicle, you have two, three or ten or more in some cases.

**Johnnny5** · September-06-17, 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by Meddle

Chases should be outlawed with exceptions for felony subjects.

If a law's not enforced, it ends up being ignored [[Just like the illegal immigration mess we're now dealing with). When the blue lights show up in the rear view mirror everyone would just be hitting the gas pedal.

**night-timer** · December-26-17, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by Meddle

Chases should be outlawed with exceptions for felony subjects. Once a chase begins, the fleeing driver tends to get scared [[or determined) and far more reckless/dangerous. Plus, instead of one speeding vehicle, you have two, three or ten or more in some cases.

I agree that police should terminate a pursuit if it going to put third party road-users and pedestrians at risk... but will it make the escapee slow down and suddenly become a safe and sensible road-user once he sees the police disappearing into the background in the rear-view mirror?

**Meddle** · December-27-17, 04:41 AM

Originally Posted by night-timer

I agree that police should terminate a pursuit if it going to put third party road-users and pedestrians at risk... but will it make the escapee slow down and suddenly become a safe and sensible road-user once he sees the police disappearing into the background in the rear-view mirror?

It can, yes. In many [[not all) cases once a fleeing vehicle realizes they're no longer being pursued, they will slow to try and blend in with traffic so as not to attract attention again. They may even try to find a place to get off the road and stop to hide for a while. This can happen with a minor traffic offense, a DUI, or a hardened felon.

They may not have been driving dangerously to begin with either. A unit might run a plate while observing a vehicle stopped at a traffic light, or running normally with traffic. Plate comes back hot, blue lights go on and well ....

I've seen cases where a teen driver will commit a minor violation [[not signalling a lane change or turn for example) that doesn't put anyone else at risk. Unit signals for a traffic stop [[maybe not even planning on citing the driver) and the teen panics and takes off at high speed. No matter how it ends, the teen will be far worse off than with a citation.

When some people get panicked or stressed over things most of us think minor, they do odd things that they would never normally do.

**aj3647** · December-27-17, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by night-timer

I agree that police should terminate a pursuit if it going to put third party road-users and pedestrians at risk... but will it make the escapee slow down and suddenly become a safe and sensible road-user once he sees the police disappearing into the background in the rear-view mirror?

Eventually, yes. Do you think the fleeing car just keeps fleeing until it runs out of gas?

DPD only pursues for felony offenses. MSP, after this incident, has now adopted the same policy for Detroit: NO high-speed pursuits for petty traffic offenses or misdemeanor offenses. As long as the car isn't stolen, the cops will be able to track the driver down later. It's not worth getting people killed over a misdemeanor traffic offense.

**cla1945** · September-06-17, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by aj3647

Devil's advocate here: Should we arm police helicopters and drones with hellfire missiles and use them to take out vehicles that speed or drive recklessly? Think of all the lives they are endangering by going too fast, they could hit someone or run over a pedestrian. By just blowing up speeders with hellfire missiles, the police may save a lot of lives.

Police are damned if they do the right thing...damned if they don't do the right thing. I would vote for whatever would stop these idiots from putting others in harms way. By telling the public that there will be no more chases in Detroit is giving speeders, traffic offenders and others carte blanche to run. Would you want to be in the way of a person behind the wheel of a speeding vehicle who doesn't give a damn?

**aj3647** · September-07-17, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by cla1945

Police are damned if they do the right thing...damned if they don't do the right thing. I would vote for whatever would stop these idiots from putting others in harms way. By telling the public that there will be no more chases in Detroit is giving speeders, traffic offenders and others carte blanche to run. Would you want to be in the way of a person behind the wheel of a speeding vehicle who doesn't give a damn?

So yes then. If you believe that we should arm police helicopters with hellfire missiles and use them to take out speeders, then just say yes.

Maybe we can put some of those ED-209s from Robocop in school zones too, take out any car that goes faster than 25MPH. You know, to protect the kids. In fact, I don't know if you've seen the movie "Judge Dredd", but maybe we can just transition to having cops being both judge, jury, and executioner all in one. For a safe and secure society!

**cla1945** · September-07-17, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by aj3647

So yes then. If you believe that we should arm police helicopters with hellfire missiles and use them to take out speeders, then just say yes.

Maybe we can put some of those ED-209s from Robocop in school zones too, take out any car that goes faster than 25MPH. You know, to protect the kids. In fact, I don't know if you've seen the movie "Judge Dredd", but maybe we can just transition to having cops being both judge, jury, and executioner all in one. For a safe and secure society!

I won't dignify your 12 year old mentality statement with a reply.

**Wesley Mouch** · September-07-17, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by cla1945

Being the devils advocate here...Has anyone thought about the consequences of this boy driving this ATV at high speeds on the sidewalk trying to elude the police? Children playing, people walking? He could have killed a number of them, simply because he wouldn't stop. Why didn't he stop if he was such a "good, upstanding boy"? The trooper may have been wrong for tasing him while he was chasing him, but the trooper may have saved a lot of lives by doing so. Everyone is so quick to judge and blame law enforcement for trying to do their jobs, making split second decisions and sometimes not following protocol...sometimes to prevent a worse disaster.

cla.... I don't understand why we can't expect police officers to make the best decision, under the worst of circumstances -- in all cases. Sure, its hard to do. So wouldn't it be better policy if they were to always not take action, unless their acts are reviewed in advance? Sports have instant reply. Police officers now have live video. Couldn't we have a police action review team at HQ who could review the video before officers can act?

I don't see why its so hard to know in a split second what the best course of action is?

**cla1945** · September-07-17, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

cla.... I don't understand why we can't expect police officers to make the best decision, under the worst of circumstances -- in all cases. Sure, its hard to do. So wouldn't it be better policy if they were to always not take action, unless their acts are reviewed in advance? Sports have instant reply. Police officers now have live video. Couldn't we have a police action review team at HQ who could review the video before officers can act?

I don't see why its so hard to know in a split second what the best course of action is?

I'm sorry Wesley, but I can't believe you wrote those words. Officers are human beings, after all. They are expected to make split second decisions, to fire, not to fire, to taze, not to taze, to chase, not to chase..all types of decisions. For example, if you have an officer approaching a vehicle and the driver pulls a gun and starts to point it at the officer, should that officer have to wait until some other officer, sitting at a desk in front of a computer screen review the actions and then inform the officer on the street, "yes, you can pull your gun", or "no, retreat and ask him if he has any mental problems, or is he under a doctors care, or has he taken any mind altering drugs in the last 24 hours"?
Sports have instant replay, yes. But while that instant replay is being viewed by the referees, the players can rest, grab a drink of water, go pee, whatever...police officers don't have that luxury. If you have a gun pointed at you, you have to assume the person behind that gun is going to shoot you and you have to act quickly to protect yourself at that point. I carry legally; if anyone would raise an arm with a gun at the end of his hand to shoot me, believe me, I would shoot!

**Johnnny5** · September-02-17, 10:06 AM

I feel bad for the kid and his parents, they paid a heavy price for his stupidity. The cop on the other hand should have known better, and should have controlled his reactions [[Assuming that all of what reported is true and out in the open).

This ATV craze has become a major issue in many urban areas and is a huge burden on law enforcement. It has to be extremely frustrating to see these kids endangering themselves and innocent pedestrians, but have little ability to do anything about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLA2DOvQLeI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nb90qz2FwxQ

**Zacha341** · September-02-17, 07:09 PM

8:56 onward of the Detroit race vid looks like the police are checking one of the riders at the gas station sans the taser technique.

Great! More accident inducing nonsense added to already distracted drivers texting on, and running stop lights etc. Bring on the SNOW I'd almost want to say as much as I hate winter!!!

An idea to help avoid interaction with these ATV's is when you see one come thru, there are usually more coming, so DON'T, don't change lanes!

Let them come thru. Jumping lanes increases the risk of them hitting you. Some aren't wearing head protection either.

Originally Posted by Johnnny5

This ATV craze has become a major issue in many urban areas and is a huge burden on law enforcement. It has to be extremely frustrating to see these kids endangering themselves and innocent pedestrians, but have little ability to do anything about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nb90qz2FwxQ

**Honky Tonk** · September-02-17, 10:21 AM

I see Feiger's still as big of an asshole as he always was.

**cla1945** · September-02-17, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

I see Feiger's still as big of an asshole as he always was.

The biggest ambulance chaser of them all. Quick to go after deep pockets, no offer to help a hard working trooper trying to protect and serve.

**Zozo** · September-02-17, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

I see Feiger's still as big of an asshole as he always was.

Note the racially charged term "cowboy" he uses to describe the presumably white State Trooper.

**aj3647** · September-06-17, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by Zozo

Note the racially charged term "cowboy" he uses to describe the presumably white State Trooper.

What's racially charged about the term "cowboy?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowboy...e_associations

"Cowboy" as an adjective for "reckless" developed in the 1920s.^[6] "Cowboy" is sometimes used today in a derogatory sense to describe someone who is reckless or ignores potential risks, irresponsible or who heedlessly handles a sensitive or dangerous task.^[

So it would seem to be a correct and apt use of the word, given the circumstances.

**Maof** · September-02-17, 03:10 PM

Are ATV's even street legal?

**Richard** · September-02-17, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by Maof

Are ATV's even street legal?

Off road use only where I am at,they are hard to control on hard pavement also,a little twitch and they flip.

Like Jonnny5 posted it seems to be a craze. We have them in groups up to 10 that will ride abreast 2 lanes blocking traffic.

The police do not chase them,but they do follow them in a undercover car and then arrest them when they get home.

**softailrider** · September-02-17, 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by Maof

Are ATV's even street legal?

Not even close.

**cla1945** · September-02-17, 06:59 PM

They are not legal on any city street.

**Maof** · September-03-17, 06:56 AM

So the parents thought it was ok to let him ride this thing thru the streets? I feel bad the kid lost his life and what the trooper did wasn't according to the books but what were his parents thinking? I wonder if they purchased it for him or if he was riding on a friends.