State of Emergency/White Nationalist Protest in Virginia

[JBMcB]

And I have no idea what that is, but if that's a movement to root out Nazis, White supremacists and other similar hate groups, that make them the good guys. Like the US Army in the 1940s. Crush the Nazis wherever they rear their ugly heads.

They are, ostensibly, anarcho-syndicalists, which means they want to take out Nazis, then Republicans, Democrats, Greens, Libertarians, and pretty much every political party, governmental organization, and organizing body that isn't themselves. And, if history teaches us anything, "take out" doesn't mean punch.

Then, from the charred ashes of the society they ruined, they will build a agriculturally-based utopia where everybody loves each other and there is no violence. I'm not being hyperbolic. This is what they believe. They are like political scientologists.

As, I believe, Lenin once expertly put it :

[Canadian Visitor]

I pride myself on being moderate, non-partisan, pragmatic more than ideological and with a sincere believe that discussion and debate ought not to degenerate into derision.

I can accept people having different preferences that my own, and unique perspectives.

What I cannot accept is people who have very little adherence to reality. The facts are simply irrelevant in their view. That would be true from the 'left' or the 'right'; or for that matter a person who isn't partisan but has completely unfounded views about the virtues of vaccination.

Facts matter. Without them we have no society, no civilization, no useful education. Facts are defined, at their simplest as those things that are proven to be true.

There have been many posters on this thread [[by no means all) who have chosen to post non-facts, yet claim them to be such.

Posters who have mistaken their right to free speech, for their right to appear to be a racist, uncaring, under-educated jackass.

While the latter too, may be a 'right' its one that every person should exercise the self-restraint not to uphold.

The bigotry and indifference toward human life is truly astounding.

Suffice to say I find this thread one that has left me disappointed in humanity.

The people of Michigan deserve better; the people of the world deserve better.

Shame.

[Richard]

Posters who have mistaken their right to free speech, for their right to appear to be a racist, uncaring, under-educated jack-ass

The bigotry and indifference toward human life is truly astounding
Shame.

What is also clear is there are highly educated jack-ass's.

Those are the ones that feel they are so superior to the ones they feel are uneducated that thier opinions matter more,and it is their duty in life as self appointed superior intelligence should be the rule of thumb.

Amercians have rights and regardless no matter how one try's to spin it at the end of the day the constitution has the power,you either support it or take up arms and overthrow the government and change it.

In the meantime it stands,it has no bearing on personal feelings you cannot pick and choose what parts you want to follow and it applies to all.

Shame is when supposedly highly educated people drop down to the level of having to call everybody some kind of name.

Really ? One supports the constitution and that makes them racist?

Somebody does not agree with you so they become a racist, uncaring,under-educated jack-ass.

Just shows an education does not buy class.

It is a public forum with a diverse group of people from all walks of life and different opinions.

Looking for highly intelligent conversation stimulation? Maybe join a Mensa forum but even with that there is always going to be someone smarter then everybody else.

[Meddle]

they will build a agriculturally-based utopia where everybody loves each other and there is no violence.

Doesn't sound so bad.

[Honky Tonk]

You know Gman, once upon a time, it was actually considered patriotic to punch a Nazi in the face. In fact, we fought a war over this. The whole world was involved.

Attachment 33959

Attachment 33960

And don't forget Tarzan! Tarzan battled the Nazi's too!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtlLie-G0DM

[Canadian Visitor]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/donal...ille-1.4250236

I basically agree w/the above; though in fairness, I'll note that Trump got 46% of the vote, in an election w/ 55% turnout. So really 25% of Americans wear this scandal. Though the 45% who didn't bother voting don't get any plaudits.

[aj3647]

Even according to the counter-protester's own reports, there was no violence until Antifa showed up. They were fully expecting violence, as they were creating a human wall around the park where the unite the right group had been permitted to demonstrate.

There was no violence at Normandy until the Allied invasion force showed up on June 6, 1944. The Allied terrorists were fully expecting violence that day, and in fact showed up dressed in militarized uniforms with helmets and automatic weapons. THIS IS NOT HOW THINGS ARE DONE.

They should have just let the Nazis have their Thousand Year Reich, and then the Allies could have done their own thing. Instead, they normalized political violence.

I condemn the violence on both sides in WWII.

[Canadian Visitor]

CBC report on American Voters on Trump from last night's 'The National' Reporter went to Michigan; Detroit then a primarily, it seems, white town, I haven't been to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYDm...outu.be&t=4m9s

[Richard]

I am more inclined to think that the .05 % radicial right and the .05% of the radical left wear the scandal,but some that dislike the currant president choose to use a wide brush in painting the picture and have nothing better to do then dissect every spoken word to find fault to further their cause which has nothing to do with statues or nazis.

But hey what a greater way to avoid the issues then to throw politics into it.

The positive thing in all of this is the manufacturing council is now dead in the water,which kills the whole apprenticeship programs which would help lift a few generations up,which keeps many more in the poverty level which equals more voters.

Maybe while he is in office we should just give in and work towards a more socialist dictatorship America.

How many even knew that the statues existed and how did they effect thier daily life ?

Now that they are down does the senseless killing stop in cities like Chicago,are the inner city schools in a better condition today,the infrastructure is rolling right along.etc.

How has each individuals life changed in a positive direction in their daily life improved or that of their neighbors.

[aj3647]

As some here myopically focus on ANTIFA terrorists as the greatest threat the world has ever known, meanwhile back in the real world...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/oklahoma-man-charged-in-anti-government-bomb-plot/2017/08/14/97816686-80f9-11e7-ab27-1a21a8e006ab_story.html

The FBI just arrested a Right Wing terrorist for attempting to blow up a bank in Oklahoma City with what he believed was a 1000-lb truck bomb.

23-year old Jerry Drake Varnell harbored extreme anti-government views, idolized Timothy McVeigh, and was an adherent of the Right Wing "Three Percenters" Patriot Movement.

Click on the link, take a look at his mugshot, that's what a real terrorist looks like. He didn't break some windows or punch someone in the face, which apparently you people think defines "terrorism", he plotted to blow up a fucking building with people in it.

[Richard]

He crossed the line and was arrested,just as the ones that took it apoun themselves to remove a statue were.

That is how it works in this country,you have freedoms until you cross the line and then the law kicks in,it is not the best idiea to eliminate freedoms to prevent crossing the line.

Or that argument only worked because it was against the travel ban and not convient to the cause now and does not apply?

[aj3647]

He crossed the line and was arrested,just as the ones that took it apoun themselves to remove a statue were.

Please please for the love of 8lb 6oz tiny baby Jesus tell me that you are not equating what this guy did with the people who pulled down a statue in Durham. You know those two acts are not equivalent, right? Please tell me you know that. Please tell me that on some fundamental level you know that trying to blow up a building full of people is objectively worse than pulling down a statue.

Also, who's eliminating freedoms? Please tell me which freedoms, who is eliminating them, and how. Be specific please and provide examples.

[Richard]

Equating has nothing to do with it,everybody has the right to say what they want,it is when you cross the line in the legal sense to take actions then there is accountability.That is a difficult concept to understand.

Or should we just go about arresting everybody that we view to be a precieved threat.

A African American CEO of MERC is put into a position on the manufacturing council that can directly change and improve the daily lives of millions of his fellow African Americans for generations to come and he quits because he did not like the wording the president used.

Today he is back at his job making a multi million dollar salary,working for a pharmaceutical company that makes billions a year off of Medicare for the poor.

But hey let's concentrate on tearing down statues because they represent a repressive past.

Kinda ironic how we learn nothing from history.

[JBMcB]

There was no violence at Normandy until the Allied invasion force showed up on June 6, 1944. The Allied terrorists were fully expecting violence that day, and in fact showed up dressed in militarized uniforms with helmets and automatic weapons. THIS IS NOT HOW THINGS ARE DONE.

Yes it is, because the democratically elected president asked for permission to go to war from the democratically elected congress, who then ordered the military to act accordingly.

When someone breaks the law, as created by democratically elected legislators, the police arrest that person, they have a trial in front of an impartial judge or jury, and they are found guilty or not guilty.

If someone says something you don't like YOU DON'T GET TO USE VIOLENCE. YOU ARE NOT THE POLICE.

Willingness to use violence to forward your politics, or repress others, leads to a situation where whomever has the most guns and is willing to commit the worst acts of violence wins.

I understand your feelings towards these idiots. Their ideology is an anathema to modern society. They can easily be defeated by simply showing them for who they are and ridiculing them. It's not hard. Their views are ridiculous. When you start dressing up like a biker gang in a bad 80s cartoon and starting riots to ostensibly "fight" them, YOU'RE MAKING THEM LOOK LIKE THE REASONABLE ONES.

[aj3647]

I understand your feelings towards these idiots. Their ideology is an anathema to modern society. They can easily be defeated by simply showing them for who they are and ridiculing them. It's not hard. Their views are ridiculous. When you start dressing up like a biker gang in a bad 80s cartoon and starting riots to ostensibly "fight" them, YOU'RE MAKING THEM LOOK LIKE THE REASONABLE ONES.

Yes, Nazis have every right to march and assemble and wave whatever flags they want and give Hitler salutes as they march with torches and chant "Jews will not replace us." They have that right.

And no, just because they are fighting Nazis doesn't give ANTIFA the legal right to commit vandalism, destroy property, or commit petty misdemeanor assaults.

These points are conceded. What I take issue with is the false moral equivalency that you, Richard, Gman, Oladub, and the rest are making, that ANTIFA and the Nazis are just as bad [[if not worse, which many of you seem to suggest). This is false. Nazis are worse. Let me explain it to you.

1) If you're looking at it strictly from a violence metric, then the Nazis win. A Nazi murdered a woman. Drove his car into a crowd of innocent people. Aside from the death of Heather Heyer, that action also sent several people to the hospital with severe injuries. There was no equivalent act that you can attribute to ANTIFA. ANTIFA murdered NO ONE in Charlottesville. ANTIFA didn't put a single Nazi in the Intensive Care Unit. But yet, to you all, they are terrorists because they threw punches. So on the Evil scale, I give this one to the Nazis. Nazis 1: ANTIFA: 0 I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree that punching someone in the face isn't equally as bad as committing murder.

2) Now let's look at it from a messaging point of view. Whose message is the worst?

ANTIFA: Hates Nazis, Klansman, and white supremacists.
Nazis + white supremacists: Hates literally everyone elsenot listed above. Jews, Muslims, blacks, Hispanics, LGBTQ people, immigrants and refugees, white liberal allies of the above group, the list goes on.

The Unite for Right marchers were chanting "Blood and Soil" [[a Nazi slogan) and "Jews will not replace us." They want America to be a whites-only homeland. The end game of their vile philosophy is racial, ethnic, and religious genocide. But ANTIFA is just as bad because they are "intolerant" of those views? Nazis: 2, ANTIFA: 0


But I get it, ANTIFA are terrorists [[even though they've never killed anyone, anywhere, ever). You all have devoted post after post, paragraph after paragraph, written entire diatribes about the evils of ANTIFA. And yet, at best, the most I've seen out of any of you in terms of denouncing the Nazis is usually just a sentence or two of relatively mild criticism before you go off on a spirited discussion about how ANTIFA are worse.

[Canadian Visitor]

Yes, Nazis have every right to march and assemble and wave whatever flags they want and give Hitler salutes as they march with torches and chant "Jews will not replace us." They have that right.

And no, just because they are fighting Nazis doesn't give ANTIFA the legal right to commit vandalism, destroy property, or commit petty misdemeanor assaults.

These points are conceded. What I take issue with is the false moral equivalency that you, Richard, Gman, Oladub, and the rest are making, that ANTIFA and the Nazis are just as bad [[if not worse, which many of you seem to suggest). This is false. Nazis are worse. Let me explain it to you.

1) If you're looking at it strictly from a violence metric, then the Nazis win. A Nazi murdered a woman. Drove his car into a crowd of innocent people. Aside from the death of Heather Heyer, that action also sent several people to the hospital with severe injuries. There was no equivalent act that you can attribute to ANTIFA. ANTIFA murdered NO ONE in Charlottesville. ANTIFA didn't put a single Nazi in the Intensive Care Unit. But yet, to you all, they are terrorists because they threw punches. So on the Evil scale, I give this one to the Nazis. Nazis 1: ANTIFA: 0 I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree that punching someone in the face isn't equally as bad as committing murder.

2) Now let's look at it from a messaging point of view. Whose message is the worst?

ANTIFA: Hates Nazis, Klansman, and white supremacists.
Nazis + white supremacists: Hates literally everyone elsenot listed above. Jews, Muslims, blacks, Hispanics, LGBTQ people, immigrants and refugees, white liberal allies of the above group, the list goes on.

The Unite for Right marchers were chanting "Blood and Soil" [[a Nazi slogan) and "Jews will not replace us." They want America to be a whites-only homeland. The end game of their vile philosophy is racial, ethnic, and religious genocide. But ANTIFA is just as bad because they are "intolerant" of those views? Nazis: 2, ANTIFA: 0


But I get it, ANTIFA are terrorists [[even though they've never killed anyone, anywhere, ever). You all have devoted post after post, paragraph after paragraph, written entire diatribes about the evils of ANTIFA. And yet, at best, the most I've seen out of any of you in terms of denouncing the Nazis is usually just a sentence or two of relatively mild criticism before you go off on a spirited discussion about how ANTIFA are worse.

THIS

AJ is on point.

The disgrace is putting two arguable wrongs, on the same plane of discussion.

One [[ANTIFA) may involve at times, some measure of illegal or violent behavior, which I have no time for.

The other, not only espouses murder and violence in its speech, but actually carries it out.

Not on the same level; not close.

Anyone who infers such is beneath moral contempt.

[Meddle]

Yes, Nazis have every right to march and assemble and wave whatever flags they want and give Hitler salutes as they march with torches and chant "Jews will not replace us." They have that right.

No. They don't. They have no place on this planet.

[canuck]

I am more inclined to think that the .05 % radicial right and the .05% of the radical left wear the scandal,but some that dislike the currant president choose to use a wide brush in painting the picture and have nothing better to do then dissect every spoken word to find fault to further their cause which has nothing to do with statues or nazis.

But hey what a greater way to avoid the issues then to throw politics into it.

The positive thing in all of this is the manufacturing council is now dead in the water,which kills the whole apprenticeship programs which would help lift a few generations up,which keeps many more in the poverty level which equals more voters.

Maybe while he is in office we should just give in and work towards a more socialist dictatorship America.

How many even knew that the statues existed and how did they effect thier daily life ?

Now that they are down does the senseless killing stop in cities like Chicago,are the inner city schools in a better condition today,the infrastructure is rolling right along.etc.

How has each individuals life changed in a positive direction in their daily life improved or that of their neighbors.

I have to do a 180 and agree with you there, Richard.

All this fuss over what Chump does or doesn't say, is fuel on the fire of hatred for the alt right and the Nazis and White Supremacists.

Never really understood what it is these lefties hated about the statues meant to honor generals who fought to keep Southern negroes in slavery. What is it about a bunch of Nazis that defend these symbols and a President laying blame on both sides that irks smart, and or educated folk?

Why are African Americans concerned about symbols of violence and domination that persist to this day? What does this state of affairs have to do with lack of economic and social progress in that community?

Why can't decent folk fathom that White supremacists need to protect monuments and symbols that promote hate and division in this day and age?

What makes a Chump limp when something of this magnitude arises?

[Richard]

Yep the civil war was 100% about slavery.

Are you guys aware of a thing called Caliexit?

It is a push for California to succeed from the United States,they have gained the 585 + thousand votes to bring it to the referendum in 2018.

They were supported by Russia in the start and had thier own little embassy in Russia.Interesting how a state that was pushing for investigation into Russian involvement was actually involved with the Russians funding thier succession.

They dropped the Russian support after President Trump was elected because they figured it was bad publicity for thier cause.

Considering they had 3 million votes in the last election they could probably win an exit.

The funny thing is when you read the reasons for the succession it exactly mirrors the same reasons the south called for succession.

In this day and age the argument from those who really have little clue about the civil war and think all it had to do was with slaves,California has an equivalent.

Illeage immigration,they have 1/4 of the countries illeagle immigrants,granted not slaves but barley paid,living in shacks with little chance to get ahead. Life of servitude.

If California approves a Cali-Exit would you consider them also traitors?

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2017/...dom-coalition/

https://www.newsy.com/stories/califo...y-over-russia/


I kinda like the Canadian outlook, well we had slaves but we let them go so we are the pinnacle of society,if you were you would have never owned/ traded slaves in the first place.

No different then the north,it was okay to own slaves until we decided it is not and that makes us the good guys.The north was manufacturing and industrial,what did they need slaves for?

[Canadian Visitor]

Yep the civil war was 100% about slavery.

Are you guys aware of a thing called Caliexit?

It is a push for California to succeed from the United States,they have gained the 585 + thousand votes to bring it to the referendum in 2018.

They were supported by Russia in the start and had thier own little embassy in Russia.Interesting how a state that was pushing for investigation into Russian involvement was actually involved with the Russians funding thier succession.

They dropped the Russian support after President Trump was elected because they figured it was bad publicity for thier cause.

Considering they had 3 million votes in the last election they could probably win an exit.

The funny thing is when you read the reasons for the succession it exactly mirrors the same reasons the south called for succession.

In this day and age the argument from those who really have little clue about the civil war and think all it had to do was with slaves,California has an equivalent.

Illeage immigration,they have 1/4 of the countries illeagle immigrants,granted not slaves but barley paid,living in shacks with little chance to get ahead. Life of servitude.

If California approves a Cali-Exit would you consider them also traitors?

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2017/...dom-coalition/

https://www.newsy.com/stories/califo...y-over-russia/


I kinda like the Canadian outlook, well we had slaves but we let them go so we are the pinnacle of society,if you were you would have never owned/ traded slaves in the first place.

No different then the north,it was okay to own slaves until we decided it is not and that makes us the good guys.The north was manufacturing and industrial,what did they need slaves for?

Roger, I will gain the self-discipline to ignore you; but before that, let me indulge myself.

First, in your response to assorted posts above, you just changed the topic rather than address issues on which you have clearly been bested in debate.

That speaks to your hero, Mr. Trump, who simply won't admit his mistakes and/or lies and continues on oblivious to the consequences for himself, his administration or his country.

Likewise, if you can't be adult enough to admit you were wrong, at least learn to be quiet.

Yes, you have the constitutional right to make a fool of yourself; that doesn't mean you should exercise it.

****

Second, on the earlier raised subject of my apparent jack-ass-ness over being put off by people who are both under-educated and racist.........

Please note, I did not single out under-educated on its own. There is no evil in not being 'book smart'. I know some incredibly bright people who didn't even finish High School. You're just not one of them.

That said, I don't care if you have years of formal education or how many multi-syllabic words you can use in single sentence, in context.

What I do care about is people who pontificate [[which you do)........

[[that by the way, that means to express one's opinions in a way considered annoyingly pompous and dogmatic.)


... who pontificate and who clearly have no clue what they are talking about. You are under-educated formally and informally on the subject, yet speak as if you were an expert.

Please note, to this point, I have not harped on your endless spelling mistakes, [[secession, not succession), nor your complete misuse of words [[you can't have an embassy when you are not a government)

But I am growing very tired of the fact you don't know the facts, but insist you do.

No matter how hard you try, 2 + 2 will not be 18

So while I will never endeavour to humiliate someone because they lack an education; I will now feel free to humiliate and correct at will the errors, misnomers, non-sequiturs that you bring forth.

Not because you lack education but because you imagine you understand, when you are the epitome of ignorance.

Fit the bill you will be called out.

Want respect; EARN IT!.

****

Lastly,

I will gladly challenge the assertion that the night march w/folks wearing Nazi symbols is in fact protected by the first amendment

Everyone knows there are limits on free speech.

The most obvious and frequently referred to example is your right to yell 'FIRE' in a crowded theatre when there isn't one.

You don't have that right.

There is a reason at law for that. Its not simply that it would disrupt the performance, or inconvenience the patrons; that is offensive but might be considered a civil matter were that the extent of it.

In fact, such an act is considered criminal; for the reason that patron may in panic, exit the theatre in a rush, and in the course of doing so, it may happen that someone is trampled, possibly even to death.

That can get you charged w/manslaughter or even criminally-negligent homicide.

So how does this apply to a march.

Well, if you march wearing a symbol that conveys your willingness and desire to kill, for reasons of race, religion, physical ability, etc. Then maybe you trigger a panic response. An understandable feeling of fear and anger that may result in someone's death. You knew, or ought to know as a reasonable person that that that might be, the result.

In addition, you might also be riling people on your own 'side' w/hatred, anger, and rage, such that they lose control of their emotions and do both illegal and violent things.

Things their attire seem to condone or encourage.

That comes pretty close, in my judgement to a wanton breach of the peace.

If what you truly wanted was to suggest that a statue be left standing; that you have the right to express, whether I find it agreeable or not.

But you get to do so wearing 'normal' clothes, w/o slogans or symbols associated w/race war or violence.

You can express such a view respectfully.

That was not what the fascists and racists were doing.

That was a show of power; and by definition, a threat to others.

I would argue strongly, NOT protected by the first amendment.

[Jimaz]

Antifa: A Look at the Antifascist Movement Confronting White Supremacists in the Streets

You had a number of the courageous students of all colors at the University of Virginia who were protesting against the neofascists themselves. The neofascists had their own ammunition, and this is very important to keep in mind because the police for the most part pulled back. The next day, for example, of the twenty of us that were standing, many of them clergy, we would have been crushed like cockroaches if not for the anarchists and the antifascists who approached over 300, 350 [fascists], we just had 20 and we're singing "this little light of mine." And they're crucial [with?] anarchists because they saved our lives. We would have been completely crushed, and I'll never forget that.

• Dr. Cornel West
• Who are the antifa?
• DemocracyNOW.org

[Meddle]

....

Get your commission check from ThomThom yet this month Jim?

[Jimaz]

Get your commission check from ThomThom yet this month Jim?

Meddle, you are lying and you know it.

Stop cyberstalking me now.

[Meddle]

Right after to stop spamming the board with your propaganda buddy.

[Jimaz]

Right after to stop spamming the board with your propaganda buddy.

Bring it on, brother.