Freep On Developing The Michigan Central Station

[MicrosoftFan]

Amtrak can totally be rerouted to MCS. Instead of turning onto the CN line on the west side, and can just continue the mile to MCS. Amtrak would only need a waiting room and ticket counter, the rest can be dedicated to other uses. Only one or two platforms would need to be redeveloped. If anything, it would be easier for Amtrak trains to continue on the CP line to continue to MCS rather than switch to the CN line.

In addition, MCS is closer to Downtown than the current Amtrak station. If not MCS then I say a new Amtrak station on the Joe Louis site.

[emu steve]

Gistok: I don't think the feds would [[or should) spring for the expensive renovation. Government office workers don't need ornate, historic buildings to work from. Also, as someone who has worked in restaurants his whole life, I can tell you the addition of government workers to an area does NOTHING for the local restaurants, bars & shops.

HyperStyles: I think that the Morouns would sell before redevelop the building. Leaving aside their motives for a moment, they aren't developers by trade. So I wouldn't be looking for them to do it. I suspect they are just awaiting the right offer, which is nowadays more plausible than it would have been the last few decades.

As a fmr. government worker...

I know NOTHING about how the Morouns acquired MCS, but I would guess that, like Mikey, the Morouns are not developers nor would they see a great benefit for developing it.

I would suspect that once they see the opportunity to sell it at a nice price to someone who wants to develop it, they would.

I assume a lot of buildings or land are being held with the hopes that the 'market turns' and they become a gold mine. That is the name of the game. Think long. Think of that 'nice' [[in quotes) house sitting on Cass on the edge of the LCA land area [[south of Temple) which was probably nearly worthless 15 years ago [[was it sold for 10 -15K??) and now on the market for several million or more.

As far as government workers and their office space, usually there are a LOT of other factors other than being ornate and expensive.

One of the biggest is the ability to consolidate workers from a department into as few locations as possible. I worked in a federal department which kept expanding and kept needing to rent more office space.

As everyone knows, and many commented here, 9/11 and the Iraq war really changed the country and the Federal government [[and the D.C. area). Just think of what it did to DoD, DHS and VA. Before 9/11 we were in a peace time environment with minimal outside threats.

E.g., DHS is spread out all over the District [[D.C.) and tried to consolidate at the old St. Elizabeth's hospital. That failed because of $. FBI is similar and tried to get new headquarters. That failed recently because of $.

Is there any city, state or federal agency which needs that kind of office space in Detroit, I don't know...

If so, consider it. If not, then don't. Let the market determine an appropriate use.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

MicrosoftFan,
We as a species have put a man on the moon and cracked the human genome, so yes it CAN be done. But I think there are a few problems with your analysis. Putting aside train logistics [[of which I am certainly not an expert, aside from noting that Amtrak owns 0% of the tracks in question, and would need to work around the for profit freight hauling that occurs on said lines), here they are:
1) While the current train station in not in downtown proper, it is: in a busy commercial area that is part of a contiguous spoke extending into downtown, home to many residents, offices, hospitals and a major university; is served by several bus lines & light rail going both into downtown and further out into the city & beyond.
2) Who would foot the bill for renovations to [[at least) train portions of the building & surrounding area, and any necessary track/signal upgrades? Massive money-losing Amtrak? Cash strapped state and local government? Developers already on the fence about the affordability of the building renovation?
3) Would the space allocated for trains, ticketing, waiting & other rail support activities be well used for a facility that would serve, perhaps, hundreds of people a day?
4) JLA site is not in the cards. It was given away to a developer as part of the municipal bankruptcy. IIRC the bankruptcy deal, also, called for the developer to put in a hotel there. The chances of it being a rail station are literally zero.

It would be just as practical- and likely- to extend California's fictitious High Speed Rail to MCS [[LA to Detroit in only 44 hours for a only a few grand per seat!).

I think a new, modest station should be constructed where the current one is in New Center to fit the very modest future Amtrak has in our city's transportation future. We also should bear in mind that should Amtrak's massive operating subsidy were to ever get cut, money losing lines and stations would be the first to go.

[ABetterDetroit]

You can't just go taking property from people because you disapprove of their handling of said property. I do think if I were the city/state, I would pitch the following to Moroun [[probably the son, since dad is nearing the century mark): turn over or sell the station to a developer & drop lawsuits against the new bridge & we'll assist in getting rid of hurdles for your plans for the new Ambassador bridge, including lobbying Windsor in his behalf

Enforce building codes and tie the fines to property taxes. Why Michigan doesn't have the strongest blight laws in the country by now defies logic. First responders are at risk if they have to answer a call at these structures like MCS and Silverdome. Letting it go on indefinitely is proof of the do nothing hillbilly mentality in Lansing.

Canada is long done negotiating with the Blight Lord Matty. They have moved on to plans that do not include him. Being held hostage is not the way they roll when it comes to economic development. That's a Michigan thing.

[emu steve]

Mikey, I would think any thoughts of doing rail to MCS don't make sense because of the points you make about Amtrak, New Center, QLine, etc.

If it isn't broke, why fix it. Amtrak --> New Center --> Qline. I assume that fits the needs of Amtrak customers coming to Detroit and the Qline took that into consideration.

[MicrosoftFan]

MicrosoftFan,
We as a species have put a man on the moon and cracked the human genome, so yes it CAN be done. But I think there are a few problems with your analysis. Putting aside train logistics [[of which I am certainly not an expert, aside from noting that Amtrak owns 0% of the tracks in question, and would need to work around the for profit freight hauling that occurs on said lines), here they are:
1) While the current train station in not in downtown proper, it is: in a busy commercial area that is part of a contiguous spoke extending into downtown, home to many residents, offices, hospitals and a major university; is served by several bus lines & light rail going both into downtown and further out into the city & beyond.
2) Who would foot the bill for renovations to [[at least) train portions of the building & surrounding area, and any necessary track/signal upgrades? Massive money-losing Amtrak? Cash strapped state and local government? Developers already on the fence about the affordability of the building renovation?
3) Would the space allocated for trains, ticketing, waiting & other rail support activities be well used for a facility that would serve, perhaps, hundreds of people a day?
4) JLA site is not in the cards. It was given away to a developer as part of the municipal bankruptcy. IIRC the bankruptcy deal, also, called for the developer to put in a hotel there. The chances of it being a rail station are literally zero.

It would be just as practical- and likely- to extend California's fictitious High Speed Rail to MCS [[LA to Detroit in only 44 hours for a only a few grand per seat!).

I think a new, modest station should be constructed where the current one is in New Center to fit the very modest future Amtrak has in our city's transportation future. We also should bear in mind that should Amtrak's massive operating subsidy were to ever get cut, money losing lines and stations would be the first to go.

I think perhaps the best city to compare Detroit transit to in the US is Cincinnati. They voted down a transit referendum [[MetroMoves 2002), abandoned their train station [[1970s), and built a streetcar. So in many ways they are a bit ahead of us on abandoning things and voting down referendums. Cincy abandoned their train station before redeveloping it first into a shopping mall and then into a museum.

As as for the train side of things, Cincy closed their auxiliary one room train station in 1991 and moved trains back to mighty Union Terminal. For a bit of comparison, Cincinnati has 2 [[2!) trains, both which arrive between 1-3 am. Detroit has 6 trains that arrive at sensible times and can reach Chicago in 5 hours. Cincy Union Terminal serves 40 [[40!) passengers a day, while Detroit serves a whopping 168. I would bet a lot more customers would ride Amtrak just to see the grand MCS. In addition, Cincinnati Station is not located by any trendy restaurants- just a rail yard and industrial buildings.

I would suspect that the track and signal upgrades would be minor. From where the Wolverines breaks from the CP line [[or maybe Conrail shared assets, I can't remember) to MCS is barely a 1/2 mile. MDOT has money- they are double tracking the line from Ypsilanti to Dearborn and just bought Kalamazoo to Jackson from Norfolk Southern. The station itself would only require a waiting room with a ticket counter. That's it. MCS is a big place and the actual space required for trains would be small.

And as for the condition of Detroit-Chicago service, Michigan has some of the best Amtrak service in the country. Grand Rapids, Flint, Port Huron, Lansing all have their own trains. Hell, even Phoenix has worse Amtrak services than Port Huron. As for the tracks question, Michigan also has the longest piece of Amtrak-owned track outside of the Northeast and Keystone corridors- Porter to Kalamazoo. Coupled with the MDOT owned Kalamazoo to Jackson, and the 110MPH speed upgrades for this line in the pipeline, I would say the future of Amtrak service in Michigan is very bright.

[professorscott]

If it isn't broke, why fix it. Amtrak --> New Center --> Qline. I assume that fits the needs of Amtrak customers coming to Detroit and the Qline took that into consideration.

First of all, yes, QLine absolutely took that into consideration. New Center was not, ten years ago when we opened discussions about a midtown to downtown streetcar, anything like what it is now, so one of the questions was providing an obvious way for Amtrak customers to reach downtown. [[Yes, I know, the 53 bus, but I can count on one hand the number of Amtrak passengers who get off the train at New Center and then board a bus over the course of an entire day.)

Second, I take it as axiom that MCS is not going to serve Amtrak trains. There is absolutely no justification for spending the time, energy and money. The current Amtrak station is well connected by transit to downtown; unless MCS becomes a huge traffic generator there is not likely to be any transit to it at all.

I see MCS, if it can be redeveloped in a human-scale way, as a good opportunity to create a bridge between Corktown and Mexicantown, two neighborhoods that are pretty cool and walkable and viable. That, to me, is the real urbanist opportunity. Now, whether it actually is done in such a way as to make that work, we'll see. My concern is that it is redeveloped so as to be a walled-off superblock that impedes pedestrian movement and is accessible only by car; think of the Ren Cen when it was first built. But, as I said, we'll see.

[Hermod]

For the most part, AMTRAK isn't picky about the stations they use so long as they don't have to pay much for it. They have abandoned many of the older central stations because they were expected to pick up the cost of operating such a big barn. If they were to be enticed financially, they would consider a move from their Amshacks back to the city stations.

There is one caveat to this. The stations must be readily accessible. Jacksonville FL was abandoned by AMTRAK because it required a long slow backing movement into the station. Back in the day when locomotives were changed there, that was acceptable. AMTRAK built an Amshack west of town where the trains just roll by with a brief stop like at a country station.

Richmond VA Broad Street Station was another one with a lot of off-line movement that was avoided by the location of an Amshack along the main line.

Washington DC station was kept by AMTRAK because the trains run right through on tracks and platforms under the building rather than having a "headhouse" with stub tracks.

[MicrosoftFan]

Amtrak abandoned MCS because it had to maintain a massive tower and station when it only needed one or two platforms and a waiting room. With private developers footing the bill for everything else except one waiting room and platform. Amtrak could either abandon service to Pontiac and provide connecting commuter service via MiTrain, or use two locomotives with one on each end to continue onto Pontiac.

[Canadian Visitor]

Amtrak abandoned MCS because it had to maintain a massive tower and station when it only needed one or two platforms and a waiting room. With private developers footing the bill for everything else except one waiting room and platform. Amtrak could either abandon service to Pontiac and provide connecting commuter service via MiTrain, or use two locomotives with one on each end to continue onto Pontiac.

I realize Toronto is a very different case at this point. But its worth noting the way ownership was structured here [[in most recent times)

The City of Toronto is the owner of the station building; while GO Transit [[our commuter rail service and by far the largest user of Union Station) owns the train shed.

The City of Toronto, has turn sublet all of concourse space not needed for transportation purposes to a retail leasing company which is investing its own dollars into effectively putting a 'mall' into Union Station.

GO, on the other hand eats the cost for platform work, trainshed work and track work.

That model might improve things in terms of MCS being viable as a station.

Obviously MCS would not be anywhere near as busy in the near term.

That said, were it a hub for commuter rail, not merely Amtrak; and if Amtrak were able to restore more services [[big IFs) .....maybe there could be something there

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

My concern is that it is redeveloped so as to be a walled-off superblock that impedes pedestrian movement and is accessible only by car; think of the Ren Cen when it was first built. But, as I said, we'll see.

Bingo. That is a real challenge. The building is huge & imposing, and very much set back. To really stitch the neighborhoods together, a number of things besides a building reno need to occur. First, the surrounding blocks need to be mixed use developments that generate foot traffic, with store fronts that people want to walk both past and into. Second, transit needs to help people move around the area well, while preventing point to point people moving, so people DO have to walk a little bit. Ditto with parking: plenty, but spaced out. Third, Michigan Avenue needs to be a landscaped boulevard with a center median, easier and more inviting to cross in any direction. Fourth, whatever goes into the station and surrounding buildings should be things that occur day and evening, not just offices. That would help spinoff restaurants and retail. Fifth, regardless of how the building is used, it needs to be seen as a public entity sitting in a destination park. Roosevelt Park needs to be transformed into something unique. It is a large enough to incorporate many functions in a bold design. And that concept should extend to the back of the building, which I think should have a landscaped "Dequindre Cut" style strip park following the rails to the west riverfront parks.

[emu steve]

Bingo. That is a real challenge. The building is huge & imposing, and very much set back. To really stitch the neighborhoods together, a number of things besides a building reno need to occur. First, the surrounding blocks need to be mixed use developments that generate foot traffic, with store fronts that people want to walk both past and into. Second, transit needs to help people move around the area well, while preventing point to point people moving, so people DO have to walk a little bit. Ditto with parking: plenty, but spaced out. Third, Michigan Avenue needs to be a landscaped boulevard with a center median, easier and more inviting to cross in any direction. Fourth, whatever goes into the station and surrounding buildings should be things that occur day and evening, not just offices. That would help spinoff restaurants and retail. Fifth, regardless of how the building is used, it needs to be seen as a public entity sitting in a destination park. Roosevelt Park needs to be transformed into something unique. It is a large enough to incorporate many functions in a bold design. And that concept should extend to the back of the building, which I think should have a landscaped "Dequindre Cut" style strip park following the rails to the west riverfront parks.

Bingo!!!

When I ERRONEOUSLY suggested a soccer stadium on the Tiger Stadium site it was to stimulate mixed use development adjacent to it. Residential with retail - esp. westward toward 14th.

As far as transit, we have beating a drum for extending the QLine alonge Michigan Ave. to MCS/Roosevelt Park with the explicit purpose of stimulating development around MCS/Roosevelt and indeed all along Michigan Ave. from Tiger Stadium area westward. It would probably help between Trumbull and the Lodge and even east of the Lodge.

Indeed Michigan Ave. needs work and is wide enough to have a boulevard.

And, drum roll, whenever QLine 'comes to town' streets need to be redone so the opportunity is to completely re-do Michigan Ave. to say 14th Street.

[ABetterDetroit]

"We’ve had some serious interest that we’ve worked very hard with," said Samhat, who is president of Crown Enterprises, the Morouns' real estate firm.
If redevelopment were to happen, "we see ourself as the developer for a user or multiple users,” he said.
--from the Freep article.

You have to wonder on a deal as large and complex as MCS would be how much that statement is a deal breaker.

Experience actually developing for parties other than the Marouns' would be a big help. Their not exactly well known for playing nice with others...

[MicrosoftFan]

And that concept should extend to the back of the building, which I think should have a landscaped "Dequindre Cut" style strip park following the rails to the west riverfront parks.

Unfortunately, the border control heavily patrols the portal to the CP Rail Tunnel. I do think there should be a walking path down through west side industrial, as well as QLine stub tracks for a future Mexicantown extension down Vernor.

[Meddle]

If I were Duggan, I'd be swinging the Eminent Domain sledge hammer, even if only as a motivator. 'Get you head out of your ass Fatty, or we're taking the place away from you'.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Meddle, that is a very tiny hammer he would wield.

1) The city would have to prove in court- likely state courts followed by federal courts- that there is a compelling public interest in the site. Hotels, condos, offices and markets do not meet the standard.
2) Building a school, road, firehouse, etc would meet the criteria, provided that it can be established in court that the public interest could not be met without acquisition of the property in question. Of course, those are not likely uses for the building.
3) Blight has been deemed in a few instances as a compelling reason to seize someone's property, but the fact that even Moroun's detractors don't claim the building to be structurally unsound, and that there is occupied development nearby and a usable public park at its front door argue against a compelling blight argument.
4) That the building's last tenant was a public sector one that willingly gave it up, and that it was vacant when the Morouns took it over don't indicate that he is particularly neglectful nor the reason for its decay.
5) All of this would take years and millions in court. If successful, the city would be obligated to pay Moroun for the site AND be obligated to complete the project on a deadline or return the property to the owner.

I think the Mayor's best course of action is to make nice with Junior, and convince him that the time is near on cashing in on the building [[and I think they own a lot of other nearby property). Part of my pitch would include promising to work to convince Canada that they are better served with a new Ambassador in addition to the Gordie Howe than they are with the old one and the Gordie Howe. Junior is smart enough to know top dollar for the MCS and an agreement for a new bridge is the best possible outcome in Detroit for the Morouns.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

When I ERRONEOUSLY suggested a soccer stadium on the Tiger Stadium site it was to stimulate mixed use development adjacent to it.

For many reasons, I think the Tiger Stadium site was the best place for an MLS stadium. But 2 things changed: a plan for use of the stadium site was launched and a surprise opportunity to rid ourselves of Fail Jail emerged. A soccer stadium at Tiger Stadium would have been a great home for soccer and a real boon to the Corktown area and development along Michigan Ave. Nothing "erroneous" about that train of thought at all!

[southen]

I feel like people tend to forget that Corktown has emerged as an attractive neighborhood because Tiger Stadium is no longer there. Restaurants and shops now exist that never would have if the stadium remained and you are seeing surface lots being redeveloped which would not have happened if the stadium still stood there. Corktown is far better off not having a venue for sports than it was when it did.

[gthomas]

MCS can be revived with possibly a new boutique hotel on some floors, apartments on others, shopping and dining at the base, and a real functioning train station. In addition, the Q Line could easily be extended down Michigan to a new transit center in the center of Roosevelt Park.

Great idea!! The main hub, Amtrak included!!

[ABetterDetroit]

I feel like people tend to forget that Corktown has emerged as an attractive neighborhood because Tiger Stadium is no longer there. Restaurants and shops now exist that never would have if the stadium remained and you are seeing surface lots being redeveloped which would not have happened if the stadium still stood there. Corktown is far better off not having a venue for sports than it was when it did.

I would completely agree. Corktown has a very different feel than park as close as you can then get your drink on and go to the game. Not that there is anything wrong with that, I just think it's a good idea to keep those type of venues closer together and not in Corktown or Midtown etc.

[Hermod]

Great idea!! The main hub, Amtrak included!!

Michigan Central Station is a grand and beautiful station dating from the era when every railroad wanted their primary station to be a "taj mahal" pointing to corporate grandeur. MCS is located where it is because of the need to minimize the grade coming up from the river tunnel. It is not well located to be the "transit hub" of Detroit.

Railroad stations were located, like airports, where there was available land for them. They were not always located in the CBD for any city or town. When Detroit actually did have a "transit network" was in the interurban era. The main interurban stations were true transit hubs and were located at various sites near Woodward and Jefferson over the years. Trying to configure MCS into a transit center would work about as well as trying to configure Metro Airport into a transit center.

[emu steve]

I would completely agree. Corktown has a very different feel than park as close as you can then get your drink on and go to the game. Not that there is anything wrong with that, I just think it's a good idea to keep those type of venues closer together and not in Corktown or Midtown etc.

Does seem like the forum has a consensus that have a big sports and entertainment zone with shared parking, freeway access, shared amenities, etc. is better than putting them out in areas which are essentially residential in character.

Once, please, WC says yes to the fail jail site, all of this discussion comes to an end with the fourth and last stadium/arena to be built at a known location.

[Not In MI]

Richmond VA has several north-south AMTRAK trains running through it and two beautiful train stations. Broad Street Station has been turned into the state science museum. Main Street Station, an architectural treasure, tried to make a go of it as a shopping mall and failed. It is now state offices [[Richmond is the state capitol). AMTRAK has built a generic one story "Amshack" out on the north side of town to handle the trains

what Hermod fails to tell you is the physical location of these 3 stations. Main Street Station is next to the former C&O and SAL main lines, now owned by CSX. SAL left main street station in the late 1950s for Broad Street Station because they saw the writing on the wall. The ex SAL main line was on its way out with the pending merger with the ACL. The C&O by that time was also on the way out for passenger service. Main Street Station is beautiful but logistically a hard station for passenger trains to reach, consider that most traffic on CSX is on the A line.

Broad Street Station is reached via a balloon track from the main line. That adds a lot of time to pull into the station and then leave the station. Today there is still a live track into the station, but it requires a train to pull in then back out in reverse. Again, a lot of time. The balloon track can not be rebuilt due to development that has taken place since the 1970s.

Staples Mill Station is a dump, an eyesore, an embarrassment. But logistically it is the ideal location for rail passenger service in Richmond. All passenger trains that serve Richmond must pass by that location, it is located on the former RF&P main line that goes from Richmond to DC.

He also fails to mention the $$$$$$$ spent to renovate the train shed at Main Street station that now stands empty 99% of the time.

[Hermod]

what Hermod fails to tell you is the physical location of these 3 stations. Main Street Station is next to the former C&O and SAL main lines, now owned by CSX. SAL left main street station in the late 1950s for Broad Street Station because they saw the writing on the wall. The ex SAL main line was on its way out with the pending merger with the ACL. The C&O by that time was also on the way out for passenger service. Main Street Station is beautiful but logistically a hard station for passenger trains to reach, consider that most traffic on CSX is on the A line.

Broad Street Station is reached via a balloon track from the main line. That adds a lot of time to pull into the station and then leave the station. Today there is still a live track into the station, but it requires a train to pull in then back out in reverse. Again, a lot of time. The balloon track can not be rebuilt due to development that has taken place since the 1970s.

Staples Mill Station is a dump, an eyesore, an embarrassment. But logistically it is the ideal location for rail passenger service in Richmond. All passenger trains that serve Richmond must pass by that location, it is located on the former RF&P main line that goes from Richmond to DC.

He also fails to mention the $$$$$$$ spent to renovate the train shed at Main Street station that now stands empty 99% of the time.

Well, I wasn't writing a thesis, just a post on the net. I completely left out Hull Street Station [[Southern), the triple crossing, and a lot of other interesting railroad facts about Richmond.

[MicrosoftFan]

To be clear, I am not supporting turning Amtrak into a building solely for trains. I support renovating one area in the station for a waiting room and rebuilding one or two platforms, the actual capital costs for these developments would be fools change compared to the cost of renovating the whole building. I think transit needs to have a future at MCS- otherwise, it isn't really Michigan Central STATION, now is it?