Historic Apartments at Cass and Henry to be Demolished by Olympia/Ilitch

[Zads07]

The bashing of the Illitch family is completely unwarranted.

Are they perfect? No. Am I a fan of everything they've done in the city? Not at all. All of that said, the reality is in if weren't for them sticking it out in downtown Detroit during the 80s - 2000s and maintaining at least SOME level of investment, there's a good chance [[to name a few things):

*Downtown would be completely beyond repair

*The Tigers, Symphony Orchestra, WDIV, American / Lafayette Coney Islands, GM, DTE Energy, Comerica & Red Wings would have all gone to the suburbs. The Orchestra, Tigers and Red Wings would have likely changed their name to something stupid and provincial like "The Symphony Orchestra of SE Michigan."

*The Pistons & Lions would have never returned downtown.

*Campbell-Ewald would have never returned downtown.

*We wouldn't be getting a mid-rise Little Caesars HQ and it would have stayed in the suburbs.

*The Fox Theatre would have been demolished

*Dan Gilbert would see absolutely no point in saving the city, shifting his time & money to a place like Cleveland and thus no Q-Line or new skyscrapers on the Hudson & Monroe blocks.

*Cass Tech would have likely relocated to a more "densely populated" part of the city.

*Cobo Hall would have been shuttered and the NAIAS would likely be taking place in some location like the Suburban Showplace in Novi.

When everyone else thought Detroit was dead and worthless [[thus didn't pour a single dime of investment into the city), including many of us on this forum, it was the Illitch family who remained. Frankly, Detroit owes its life to the Illitches.

Well this is going a bit overboard, but you certainly make some solid points. No, downtown would not be beyond repair. Highly unlikely Ilitch is responsible for keeping the DSO, both ICONIC coney islands, WDIV, GM, DTE in Detroit. The only reason the Wings stayed in the city was the massive deal Coleman Young Jr. gave Ilitch when he built Joe Louis Arena. It's unlikely the Tigers would've moved out of the city because Ilitch wanted to keep them near his empire at the Fox.

The Pistons finally returned downtown thanks to Tom Gores [[and Ilitch). Lions return downtown probably a cause of Comerica so I'll give you a point there. No idea on Campbell-Ewald and why they returned, but they came to Ford Field, so I'll give that one to the Fords for having the space.

Credit to LCHQ building, that'll be interesting to see it when it's done. The Fox Theatre is unlikely to have been demolished. For such an historic structure I don't see how that would've been torn down even without Ilitch.

Gilbert came in during the Great Recession so no, you can't point to Ilitch for helping him come in.

Cass Tech, I really don't understand this argument. They would be located in a much more dense part of the city? The alumni spent money on the new building right behind it....no points.

I have no idea how Ilitch is responsible for the NAIAS and Cobo. Quite literally no correlation. They almost left during the Great Recession but the stay paid off.

So I count 2 points out of all of that. The logic here is off for you, but good try though.

[Bham1982]

The bashing of the Illitch family is completely unwarranted.

Are they perfect? No. Am I a fan of everything they've done in the city? Not at all. All of that said, the reality is in if weren't for them sticking it out in downtown Detroit during the 80s - 2000s and maintaining at least SOME level of investment, there's a good chance [[to name a few things):

*Downtown would be completely beyond repair

*The Tigers, Symphony Orchestra, WDIV, American / Lafayette Coney Islands, GM, DTE Energy, Comerica & Red Wings would have all gone to the suburbs. The Orchestra, Tigers and Red Wings would have likely changed their name to something stupid and provincial like "The Symphony Orchestra of SE Michigan."

*The Pistons & Lions would have never returned downtown.

*Campbell-Ewald would have never returned downtown.

*We wouldn't be getting a mid-rise Little Caesars HQ and it would have stayed in the suburbs.

*The Fox Theatre would have been demolished

*Dan Gilbert would see absolutely no point in saving the city, shifting his time & money to a place like Cleveland and thus no Q-Line or new skyscrapers on the Hudson & Monroe blocks.

*Cass Tech would have likely relocated to a more "densely populated" part of the city.

*Cobo Hall would have been shuttered and the NAIAS would likely be taking place in some location like the Suburban Showplace in Novi.

When everyone else thought Detroit was dead and worthless [[thus didn't pour a single dime of investment into the city), including many of us on this forum, it was the Illitch family who remained. Frankly, Detroit owes its life to the Illitches.

This entire thread is absurd. At first I thought it was satire, but I think you're serious.

The idea that macroeconomics would cease to exist if the Illitches weren't around, and there would be no pizza places, no sports teams, no theaters, no symphonies, no conventions, no high schools, no transit, is completely bizarre.

The Fox Theater was in decent shape when Illitch bought it. Why would it be destroyed when we were entering an age of theater restoration? Why would all the sports teams head for the suburbs, when the trend is in the opposite direction? Why would a gigantic convention center be closed? Why would Cass Tech move? Why would the symphony move? Why would transit not be built?

[313WX]

The Fox Theater was in decent shape when Illitch bought it. Why would it be destroyed when we were entering an age of theater restoration?

Like everything else in the city during the 80s - 2000s, the Fox Theatre was abandoned with no interested buyers stepping up to the plate to buy it and renovate it. That "age of theatre restoration" was certainly not happening in Detroit.

I'm all for constructive criticism, but let's actually do so with our facts being straight.

Why would all the sports teams head for the suburbs, when the trend is in the opposite direction?

Both the Pistons and Lions left for the far outer ring of the suburbs during the 1980s. If it wasn't for Illitch owning the Red Wings and Tigers, it's unlikely whoever else owned them would have had any interest of keeping them downtown.

Why would a gigantic convention center be closed?

Why was a gigantic department store on Woodward Avenue closed down and demolished? Why were gigantic skyscrapers abandoned?

Why would Cass Tech move? Why would the symphony move?

Most of the kids who attend Cass Tech and most of the people who patronize the symphony live in the suburbs and the outer edges of the city. It would have made a lot more sense for them to move closer to their customer / student base. The fact that they stuck it out at all was purely out of loyalty and tradition to the city [[and of course, the Illitch family maintaining some level of activity downtown), not for any realistic reasons.

Why would transit not be built?

How well was that transit-thingy going before Dan Gilbert came along and ponied up his money for the Q-Line?

[southen]

Asks for facts but provides wild speculation...

Forbes owned the Fox and was maintaining/restoring it before it was sold to Ilitch. It wasn't abandoned. Ilitch had the funds that Forbes didn't.

The Red Wings had been playing at Joe Louis for three years when he purchased the team. They were never going to leave under his watch, plus it was a sweetheart lease.

The Tigers played at beloved Tiger Stadium and given the family's love of taxpayer dollars it would have been tough to find a community willing to fork over that kind of dough.

By your logic a convention center would cease to exist if a theater isn't renovated and there isn't professional hockey and baseball nearby? Is there any logic to that thought process?

Case Tech? Really?

Claiming that DSO would have left if not for Ilitch discounts the contributions of the Fisher family and the folks there that have maintained that institution.

What other outlandish, factless claims can we make? Perhaps Belle Isle would have sunk into the river without Mikes support? I'd love to be proven wrong though, maybe you can post the articles showing that the coney restaurants stayed afloat due to the Ilitchs or how GM and DTE only chose downtown because of the Fox, Tigers and Wings. Gilbert has done more downtown in the last year than the Ilitchs have done in three decades. This whole claim is asinine.

[313WX]

Forbes owned the Fox and was maintaining/restoring it before it was sold to Ilitch. It wasn't abandoned. Ilitch had the funds that Forbes didn't.

By the time Illitch took it over, the Fox was nothing more than a low rate theatre that primarily showed b-movies. The offices above the theatre itself were empty for a long time.

It wasn't technically abandoned, but it was definitely on its death bed by any normal measure.

The Red Wings had been playing at Joe Louis for three years when he purchased the team. They were never going to leave under his watch, plus it was a sweetheart lease.

Well of course they weren't going to leave under his watch. It was in his best interest to ensure that Red Wings fan spent money at establishments he operated downtown.

However, I should remind you that under the previous ownership, there were serious negotiations ongoing with Pontiac for a new arena [[the reasons cited were the rapid decline of the city) which gave way to this "sweetheart lease" as you call it.That proves my point, doesn't it?

The Tigers played at beloved Tiger Stadium and given the family's love of taxpayer dollars it would have been tough to find a community willing to fork over that kind of dough.

See my comment about what was in it for Illitch in keeping the Tigers downtown.

By your logic a convention center would cease to exist if a theater isn't renovated and there isn't professional hockey and baseball nearby? Is there any logic to that thought process?

I didn't say any of that.

I *DID* say that it was very clear during the 1980s - 2000s that absolutely no one in Michigan except for Mike Illitch and the two legacy bank HQs [[Comerica and National Bank of Detroit) wanted anything to do with downtown Detroit, which included business conferences. Hell, even as recently as the late 2000s, you had homers in the suburbs trying to boast the Suburban Collection Showplace in Novi as a venue for the NAIAS.

Case Tech? Really?

I don't know about *Case* Tech, but as far as Cass Tech, what I said is true.

Claiming that DSO would have left if not for Ilitch discounts the contributions of the Fisher family and the folks there that have maintained that institution.

Back in 1987, there was also serious discussion about moving the DSO to the suburbs, for the same reasons the Red Wings were in serious negotiations to relocate to Pontiac. However, after seeing Illitch take the lead on successfully reviving the Fox Theatre, they thought the same could be done with Orchestra Hall.

...

how GM and DTE only chose downtown because of the Fox, Tigers and Wings.

The main appeal of locating in a CBD is proximity to all of the cultural attractions. Without those cultural attractions, the appeal would be gone.

maybe you can post the articles showing that the coney restaurants stayed afloat due to the Ilitchs

The hundreds of millions of dollars Tigers and Red Wings fan, as well as concert goers at the Fox Theatre, I'm sure helped them quite a bit.

[Bham1982]

Like everything else in the city during the 80s - 2000s, the Fox Theatre was abandoned with no interested buyers stepping up to the plate to buy it and renovate it. That "age of theatre restoration" was certainly not happening in Detroit.

The Fox was not abandoned. In fact it was well-used as a concert destination. It had been a movie theater and concert destination for decades.

I'm all for constructive criticism, but let's actually do so with our facts being straight.

Indeed.

Both the Pistons and Lions left for the far outer ring of the suburbs during the 1980s. If it wasn't for Illitch owning the Red Wings and Tigers, it's unlikely whoever else owned them would have had any interest of keeping them downtown.

Based on what? Gores moved the Pistons downtown. Monaghan, when he owned the Tigers, wanted to build a new baseball stadium downtown.

Why was a gigantic department store on Woodward Avenue closed down and demolished? Why were gigantic skyscrapers abandoned?

What does the closing of a department store have to do with the utilization of a convention center? How do retail trends intersect with meeting space trends?

Most of the kids who attend Cass Tech and most of the people who patronize the symphony live in the suburbs and the outer edges of the city. It would have made a lot more sense for them to move closer to their customer / student base. The fact that they stuck it out at all was purely out of loyalty and tradition to the city [[and of course, the Illitch family maintaining some level of activity downtown), not for any realistic reasons.

The Cass demographic has nothing to do with the DSO demographic.

The Cass kids are from Detroit, not the suburbs. There have, in the history of Cass, probably been almost no kids from the suburbs. What does Illitch have to do with DPS and their school location methodology?

You still haven't explained how the DSO would have left if not for Illitch. Their base has been elderly whites from northern suburbs for 60 years.

How well was that transit-thingy going before Dan Gilbert came along and ponied up his money for the Q-Line?

What does this have to do with Illitch? And there were plenty of transit investments prior to Gilbert. People Mover was a much bigger project. Trolley 1.0 was built long before Gilbert.

[IrishSpartan]

Like everything else in the city during the 80s - 2000s, the Fox Theatre was abandoned with no interested buyers stepping up to the plate to buy it and renovate it. That "age of theatre restoration" was certainly not happening in Detroit.

I'm all for constructive criticism, but let's actually do so with our facts being straight.



Both the Pistons and Lions left for the far outer ring of the suburbs during the 1980s. If it wasn't for Illitch owning the Red Wings and Tigers, it's unlikely whoever else owned them would have had any interest of keeping them downtown.



Why was a gigantic department store on Woodward Avenue closed down and demolished? Why were gigantic skyscrapers abandoned?



Most of the kids who attend Cass Tech and most of the people who patronize the symphony live in the suburbs and the outer edges of the city. It would have made a lot more sense for them to move closer to their customer / student base. The fact that they stuck it out at all was purely out of loyalty and tradition to the city [[and of course, the Illitch family maintaining some level of activity downtown), not for any realistic reasons.



How well was that transit-thingy going before Dan Gilbert came along and ponied up his money for the Q-Line?

This is only partially true. Let me correct the fact of when the Lions and Pistons moved. The Lions moved to the Silverdome in 1975 and the Pistons in 1978. The Tigers stayed stayed in Detroit because the owner until 1983 [[John Fetzer) strongly believed the team belonged in the city. At one point around 1990, Tom Monaghan considered moving the team to Dearborn. However, the deal fell through. It's believed when Fetzer sold the team he may have made Monaghan promise verbally to keep the Tigers in Detroit. Joe Louis Arena was built when Bruce Norris still owned the Red Wings, and Norris simply looked for the best deal. Actually, Downtown Detroit was considered a drastic improvement location wise compared to where they had been at Olympia on Grand River & McGraw.

[emu steve]

This is only partially true. Let me correct the fact that the Lions moved to the Silverdome in 1975 and the Pistons in 1978. The Tigers stayed stayed in Detroit because the owner until 1983 [[John Fetzer) strongly believed the team belonged in the city. At one point around 1990, Tom Monaghan considered moving the team Dearborn. However, the deal fell through. It's believed when Fetzer sold the team he may have made Monaghan promise verbally to keep the Tigers in Detroit. Joe Louis Arena was built when Bruce Norris was the owner of the Red Wings, and he was simply looking for the best deal. Downtown Detroit was considered a drastic improvement location wise compared to where they had been at Olympia on Grand River & McGraw.

I assume 313WX probably made a typo on the dates.

It is hard to believe that at one time [[e.g., 1978) the four major pro teams were at Tiger Stadium, Silverdome [[two teams) and Olympia.

I think Detroit pro sports fans should be jumping for joy to hear Comerica Park, Ford Field, and Little Caesars Arena compared to those venues!!

Ford Field may have been 'state of the art' when it opened 15 years ago.

LCA IS state of the art. Period.

Comerica Park was good, but never a great ballpark.

[Hermod]

Even if the Illitch family were to suddenly build a bunch of high rise office buildings, condos, and apartments on the land they own, DetroitYes would be bitching and moaning about the architecture, location of the "street wall", lack of affordable housing, and appropriateness of the commercial tenants.

[313WX]

Even if the Illitch family were to suddenly build a bunch of high rise office buildings, condos, and apartments on the land they own, DetroitYes would be bitching and moaning about the architecture, location of the "street wall", lack of affordable housing, and appropriateness of the commercial tenants.

Very true..

And furthermore, as I said before I'm quite sure the Illitches would be willing to sell *SOME* of their land if there were interested buyers. It's not their fault that no one else thinks the land they own has any value.

[Bham1982]

Even if the Illitch family were to suddenly build a bunch of high rise office buildings, condos, and apartments on the land they own, DetroitYes would be bitching and moaning about the architecture, location of the "street wall", lack of affordable housing, and appropriateness of the commercial tenants.

I don't think so. If they built even one such development, I think people on DYes would be praising them to the heavens.

But they will never do such a thing. They have a 40-year-track record of failure.

[Warrenite84]

IMHO Mike Ilitch was not the white knight that saved Detroit. Certainly shades of grey in that he restored some things, and destroyed some things. It's the vindictiveness he exhibited when he had the façade of the Lennox building destroyed instead of salvaged that bothered me.

Since his development is downtown and not in the burbs, the Ilitch Organization needs to be sensitive to the interested parties who also live and work there. That's called being a good corporate citizen. For as much as the people of Metro Detroit have kicked in to get this project off the ground, Ilitch must "give back" in being flexible and accommodating in part to those who helped make it possible.

[emu steve]

While the great debate continues... the improvements in the sports and entertainment district look better and better every day...

[bust]

The Fox was definitely not abandoned. I saw a concert there in 1986. I wanted to but couldn't go to one that was there in 1987. Ilitch bought it in 1988.

And I'll give Ilitch credit for renovating it. It was and will always remain the singular best thing he did for the city of Detroit. I'm grateful for that.

But the Ilitch family's track record since then has been miserable. I won't go into detail... I've written it here many times before. As briefly as I can say it: weigh the sum total of their actions since the Fox and they sure come out ahead but I don't think the city of Detroit does. On the contrary. Even if you think sports stadiums are just what a thriving downtown needs they came at enormous expense to other priorities.

The money for LCA was diverted from schools. Even the lunatics who think starving the schools of funding will somehow cure their dysfunction should be able to come up with a much better use for over $300 million in taxpayer money.

The people who disagree with me think sports arenas are a lot better for cities than I do. I'm glad we have them but wish they weren't almost smack downtown and so close together. Bham's airport analogy isn't far off.

I miss Tiger Stadium but closing it has been great for Corktown.

[emu steve]

On the contrary. Even if you think sports stadiums are just what a thriving downtown needs they came at enormous expense to other priorities.

The money for LCA was diverted from schools. Even the lunatics who think starving the schools of funding will somehow cure their dysfunction should be able to come up with a much better use for over $300 million in taxpayer money.

Again, this is a falsehood.

The actually money is the from DDDA [[http://www.degc.org/about-degc/city-...ment-authority) which has its own funding sources, mostly tax increment collections.

Their mission is to stimulate development in the central business district.

The money for the schools are old, bad debts and are not current operating funds. It is mostly accounting and financing of how public monies are collected, spent, and recouped. It is NOT a gift.

Again, I wish someone, presumably in the media or a local university, would provide a good look at the financing.

To me, it is essentially like a 30 year mortgage. The money is given up front by the lender and the borrower pays it off.

In the case of the arena, there is the tax increment collections, rent payments by the Iltiches and Gores, non-resident tax collections from performers at LCA, etc.

No one has discussed it, but how much will Gores pay per year as rent for usage of the arena? That is a fairly nice chunk of change. It was like a gift from heaven. Wasn't expected when the deal for the arena was struck but thank you, thank you, thank you...

None of that is school monies or monies which would have been collected if the arena had not been built.

I assume that the amount collected BECAUSE of the arena will be less than the amount of the debt service, but I doubt the yearly amount would be too much.

So if the city runs a shortfall of say 3 - 5M / year on the arena, was that money well spent???

After all, the business of government is to SPEND money. Be it for schools, public safety and criminal justice, roads and infrastructure, public health, etc. etc. It is simply deciding what is worthwhile spending...

[Gistok]

Just read this in a Preservation Detroit Email flyer.....

Last month we raised the alarm about two historic apartment buildings in the Cass Corridor that are under study to be included in a Cass-Henry Historic District. When crews on site told passersby that they were prepping the buildings for demolition, a watchful preservation community mobilized.

What happened to the demo threat? As far as we know, no demo permits have been issued, and City Council reassured us that the building's owners were doing routine abatement work on the buildings.
The threat does not seem imminent, but we're keeping watch.

[EastsideAl]

Ahhhh, Cobo... Cobo Arena was a great place to watch a basketball game. When I was in high school we used to buy those $3.50 upper tier seats [[$1.75 with student discount for non-weekend games), which hung right out over the action. Some nights it looked like dancing Gus was going to go hurdling down towards the court into the expensive [[$14!!) seats. Saw Kareem and Dr. J and so many other basketball greats of that period there [[including the very last game there, when David Thompson of the Nuggets went for 73 in a battle with eastside Detroit native George Gervin for the scoring crown). As well as Piston stars like Dave Bing and Bob Lanier.

But Cobo, with it's blank wall end and only 11,000 seats, was too small for the modern NBA, and the league wanted them in a bigger facility. Even though the Pistons never drew well there at all. 7,000 or 8,000 was a big crowd in those days, although it could be a very noisy crowd who was really into the game. And, early on, the move to the Silverdome [[an absolutely horrible place for basketball) didn't really improve matters [[despite the persistent whispers that the Pistons management thought the Silverdome move would improve attendance because the Cobo crowd was 'too black' and 'threatening'). It really wasn't until the Isiah Thomas years, and the rise of an actual contending team, that the Pistons and the NBA became popular in the Detroit area.

We'll see how well the Pistons do in a new downtown arena with a lousy, starless, and not very entertaining basketball team. I'll definitely go to a few games, but I'm a basketball lover. Once the new arena 'wow' factor passes, they better be on the way to building a contender if they expect attendance to remain high, especially at the prices they will now be charging [[it sure ain't $3.50 anymore).

[emu steve]

Al, I can go back a little further:

Not sure if I drove or took the bus, but saw Reggie Harding go up against Wilt Chamberlain at Cobo. My guess around '65?

I believe I would have been up in the rafters [[all I could afford).

In those days, the NBA was REALLY a big man's game, and Detroit pinned their hopes on big Reggie. Reggie was 7 feet plus in a day when 7 footers were not common... [[remember, Wayne Embry, a 6' 8" center?)

Of course, Reggie had more personal problems than... and didn't make it.

[Zads07]

Update on the buildings, a public hearing on the proposed historic district that could include these buildings is happening on Thursday at 4 p.m.

https://detroit.curbed.com/2018/1/8/...toric-district

Save these buildings from being another piece of crumbled history!

[Zads07]

https://www.facebook.com/Preservatio...55328431693763

Update on the meeting, Cass-Henry Historic District approved. Requires City Council approval in February, but it's 90% about to be saved from the Ilitch Demolition Company.

[Richard]

That is good news so far,thanks for the update.

[Lowell]

Demonstration vs. Demolition of Historic Ansonia and Atlanta Apts. and U.S. Motors auto dealership building at 2959 Woodward Announced.

Here a great article by John Gallagher of the Freep along with notice of the demonstration against demolition of these buildings along with U.S. Motors auto dealership building at 2959 Woodward .

Attachment 35069

IT'S TIME TO STOP RAZING BUILDINGS FOR LCA PARKING

"Olympia Development seeking more surface lots around new sports arena

"Downtown Detroit needs many things. More surface parking lots are not among them.

"But the Ilitch family's Olympia Development wants to demolish more buildings near Little Caesars Arena to create more surface parking.

"This goes for vacant residential buildings on Cass near Interstate-75 that are the focus of a preservation fight just now, as well as other structures in the area that appear to be threatened with demolition.

"On Saturday, a 2 p.m. demonstration is planned to protest potential demolition of several structures on the northern edge of the Ilitches' District Detroit footprint, including the old U.S. Motors auto dealership building at 2959 Woodward."

[Lowell]

Interesting article in today's Freep details how the Ilitch Empire has never been blight-ticket for the Ansonia Hotel and Atlanta Apartment buildings since acquiring the properties in 2009 in spite of clearly visible violations.
Blighted Ilitch-owned buildings near Little Caesars Arena go unticketed

The City of Detroit's move to possibly condemn a ramshackle house on Cass Avenue next to the new Little Caesars Arena has raised questions about two nearby blighted properties that are owned by the Ilitch family but that have not received a blight ticket since 2009.

The buildings — the former Hotel Ansonia at 2447 Cass Ave. and the former Atlanta Apartments at 2467 Cass Ave. — are two of several dozen buildings owned by the Ilitch family in the lower Cass Corridor.

While the buildings have been inspected on and off over the past decade, neither has received a blight ticket since the year the Ilitch family's Sorin Enterprise LLC purchased them.

[1953]

Glad to see the Ilitches ticketed for this. Their bad behavior continues only because there have been no consequences for it.

[Eastside...]

I know y'all are dying to here the story of my 1 [[one) night at the Hotel Anasonia...but for now I'm off to the New York Psychoanalytic Institute for a screening of "The Conversation"...w/ discussion to follow.