Historic Apartments at Cass and Henry to be Demolished by Olympia/Ilitch

[masterblaster]

Like in Washington DC.

When the most profitable use for the land is a building, the parking lot will be replaced by a building. No one in their right mind would have a surface parking lot if they could turn big bucks by creating a building.

The reality is that buildings don't get built in Detroit unless there are massive government subsidies. In DC, the buildings get built without subsidies because there is a great demand for them.

If you want an Illitch parking lot turned into a 30 story apartment building, get your wallet out and Mr Illitch will be more than happy to sell you the land.

Your government subsidizing statement and your "get your wallet out" statement do not support each other, so I have corrected that last sentence for you:

"If you want an Illitch parking lot turned into a 30 story apartment building, Ilitch, get your wallet out as well as extend your hand out to the government for those tens of millions in subsidies, and build mixed-use projects like so many other developers are building in downtown and midtown and east riverfront and Corktown and New Center"

Name one residential project that the Ilitches have executed? Yet all of these other developers, WHO ARE GETTING ALL OF THESE GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIES, are pulling it off. All the Ilitches have done is build parking garages and stadium [[except Hockeytown Café, which is nothing).

A great example of their limited vision/focus is the GAR Building referenced above. When they sold it, a developer renovated it and now 2 outstanding restaurants operate out of it, and offices are in the upper levels.

[313WX]

The bashing of the Illitch family is completely unwarranted.

Are they perfect? No. Am I a fan of everything they've done in the city? Not at all. All of that said, the reality is in if weren't for them sticking it out in downtown Detroit during the 80s - 2000s and maintaining at least SOME level of investment, there's a good chance [[to name a few things):

*Downtown would be completely beyond repair

*The Tigers, Symphony Orchestra, WDIV, American / Lafayette Coney Islands, GM, DTE Energy, Comerica & Red Wings would have all gone to the suburbs. The Orchestra, Tigers and Red Wings would have likely changed their name to something stupid and provincial like "The Symphony Orchestra of SE Michigan."

*The Pistons & Lions would have never returned downtown.

*Campbell-Ewald would have never returned downtown.

*We wouldn't be getting a mid-rise Little Caesars HQ and it would have stayed in the suburbs.

*The Fox Theatre would have been demolished

*Dan Gilbert would see absolutely no point in saving the city, shifting his time & money to a place like Cleveland and thus no Q-Line or new skyscrapers on the Hudson & Monroe blocks.

*Cass Tech would have likely relocated to a more "densely populated" part of the city.

*Cobo Hall would have been shuttered and the NAIAS would likely be taking place in some location like the Suburban Showplace in Novi.

When everyone else thought Detroit was dead and worthless [[thus didn't pour a single dime of investment into the city), including many of us on this forum, it was the Illitch family who remained. Frankly, Detroit owes its life to the Illitches.

[MicrosoftFan]

The bashing of the Illitch family is completely unwarranted.

Are they perfect? No. Am I a fan of everything they've done in the city? Not at all. All of that said, the reality is in if weren't for them sticking it out in downtown Detroit during the 80s - 2000s and maintaining at least SOME level of investment, there's a good chance [[to name a few things):

*Downtown would be completely beyond repair

*The Tigers, Symphony Orchestra, WDIV, American / Lafayette Coney Islands, GM, DTE Energy, Comerica & Red Wings would have all gone to the suburbs. The Orchestra, Tigers and Red Wings would have likely changed their name to something stupid and provincial like "The Symphony Orchestra of SE Michigan."

*The Pistons & Lions would have never returned downtown.

*Campbell-Ewald would have never returned downtown.

*We wouldn't be getting a mid-rise Little Caesars HQ and it would have stayed in the suburbs.

*The Fox Theatre would have been demolished

*Dan Gilbert would see absolutely no point in saving the city, shifting his time & money to a place like Cleveland and thus no Q-Line or new skyscrapers on the Hudson & Monroe blocks.

*Cass Tech would have likely relocated to a more "densely populated" part of the city.

*Cobo Hall would have been shuttered and the NAIAS would likely be taking place in some location like the Suburban Showplace in Novi.

When everyone else thought Detroit was dead and worthless [[thus didn't pour a single dime of investment into the city), including many of us on this forum, it was the Illitch family who remained. Frankly, Detroit owes its life to the Illitches.

Amen. They believed in Detroit when no one else would. Sometimes you can't be too picky when it comes to what kind of development; especially in Detroit, you have to accept all progress. Beggars can't be choosers.

[Hermod]

Even if the Illitch family were to suddenly build a bunch of high rise office buildings, condos, and apartments on the land they own, DetroitYes would be bitching and moaning about the architecture, location of the "street wall", lack of affordable housing, and appropriateness of the commercial tenants.

[masterblaster]

The bashing of the Illitch family is completely unwarranted.

Are they perfect? No. Am I a fan of everything they've done in the city? Not at all. All of that said, the reality is in if weren't for them sticking it out in downtown Detroit during the 80s - 2000s and maintaining at least SOME level of investment, there's a good chance [[to name a few things):

*Downtown would be completely beyond repair

*The Tigers, Symphony Orchestra, WDIV, American / Lafayette Coney Islands, GM, DTE Energy, Comerica & Red Wings would have all gone to the suburbs. The Orchestra, Tigers and Red Wings would have likely changed their name to something stupid and provincial like "The Symphony Orchestra of SE Michigan."

*The Pistons & Lions would have never returned downtown.

*Campbell-Ewald would have never returned downtown.

*We wouldn't be getting a mid-rise Little Caesars HQ and it would have stayed in the suburbs.

*The Fox Theatre would have been demolished

*Dan Gilbert would see absolutely no point in saving the city, shifting his time & money to a place like Cleveland and thus no Q-Line or new skyscrapers on the Hudson & Monroe blocks.

*Cass Tech would have likely relocated to a more "densely populated" part of the city.

*Cobo Hall would have been shuttered and the NAIAS would likely be taking place in some location like the Suburban Showplace in Novi.

When everyone else thought Detroit was dead and worthless [[thus didn't pour a single dime of investment into the city), including many of us on this forum, it was the Illitch family who remained. Frankly, Detroit owes its life to the Illitches.

It is hard to believe that Ilitch alone is responsible for downtown, and without him, the whole thing would have collapsed into the Detroit River and nobody would have noticed.

He restored the Fox Theater and had Comerica Park built with hundreds of millions in subsidies, and built parking garages.

The move back to big city downtowns that swept America in the 1980's would eventually hit the suburb-dominated Detroit area whether Ilitch came along or not. You are also missing other large contributors to downtown's resurgence:

1. What about Karmanos? He had the Compuware Building built and Campus Martius built.

2. What about the 2 casinos downtown?

Ilitch has demolished two or three times as many buildings as he has done anything with. You don't think the Detroit Life Building or the Women's Club Building on Park Avenue wouldn't be restored by now if they were owned by somebody else. See the GAR building.

So if Ilitch wasn't around, we probably would not have had the 4 Stanley Cup Championships, but we would still have Tiger Stadium [[a win!), and more of our downtown could be dedicated to offices and residences that have people/traffic 365 days a year. Madison-Lennox Hotel, Adams Theater, etc.

[313WX]

Even if the Illitch family were to suddenly build a bunch of high rise office buildings, condos, and apartments on the land they own, DetroitYes would be bitching and moaning about the architecture, location of the "street wall", lack of affordable housing, and appropriateness of the commercial tenants.

Very true..

And furthermore, as I said before I'm quite sure the Illitches would be willing to sell *SOME* of their land if there were interested buyers. It's not their fault that no one else thinks the land they own has any value.

[313WX]

It is hard to believe that Ilitch alone is responsible for downtown, and without him, the whole thing would have collapsed into the Detroit River and nobody would have noticed.

He restored the Fox Theater and had Comerica Park built with hundreds of millions in subsidies, and built parking garages.

The move back to big city downtowns that swept America in the 1980's would eventually hit the suburb-dominated Detroit area whether Ilitch came along or not. You are also missing other large contributors to downtown's resurgence:

1. What about Karmanos? He had the Compuware Building built and Campus Martius built.

2. What about the 2 casinos downtown?

Ilitch has demolished two or three times as many buildings as he has done anything with. You don't think the Detroit Life Building or the Women's Club Building on Park Avenue wouldn't be restored by now if they were owned by somebody else. See the GAR building.

So if Ilitch wasn't around, we probably would not have had the 4 Stanley Cup Championships, but we would still have Tiger Stadium [[a win!), and more of our downtown could be dedicated to offices and residences that have people/traffic 365 days a year. Madison-Lennox Hotel, Adams Theater, etc.

Suburbanites were scared to death of coming downtown [[or much of the city period). Part of the reason they moved from Tiger Stadium in the first place is because too many fans thought the surrounding area was too seedy. If the Illitches didn't own them, there's absolutely no reason why someone like a Bob Davidson wouldn't have moved them to Oakland County or somewhere in the boonies. Don't think it could have happened? See Atlanta and the Braves.

I should add, if you remove the perks that come along with having things such as the 2nd largest theatre in the country and major league sports within walking distance [[things that wouldn't be here without Illitch), the perks of living / working downtown aren't nearly as great.

As far as this "urban resurgence" you mentioned that would have swept the city, by 1990, how well did that work out for Detroit?

Finally, concerning those buildings you mentioned, they were already vacant for a long time and very expensive to renovate. I don't think they would have been all that fit for rehab any way had they sat vacant for another 15 years.

[Wesley Mouch]

It is hard to believe that Ilitch alone is responsible for downtown, and without him, the whole thing would have collapsed into the Detroit River and nobody would have noticed.

Its untrue. But what is true is that he was the trailblazer. He showed that you could work with the City of Detroit -- when nobody else would.

He restored the Fox Theater and had Comerica Park built with hundreds of millions in subsidies, and built parking garages.

Subsidies. I know its a DetroitYes shibboleth that Ilitch only succeeded because he sucked at the public teat. But give him credit. The white, Macedonian businessman somehow convinced the black communist to give him money. You have to admin there's talent [[or something) there.

Subsidies. Does anyone think other downtowns all develop without them? I hate them. But they are a fact of life like air in developments, urban and rural.

The move back to big city downtowns that swept America in the 1980's would eventually hit the suburb-dominated Detroit area whether Ilitch came along or not.

My second favorite argument. All we need to do is keep screaming at, and putting more obstacles in front of people who saw opportunity to profit in Detroit, and eventually the market would have made Detroit into Eldorado in a few years. Ilitch had no special skills. He just swindled and stole his way into his success. I'll bet you don't credit the market with much else -- but it sure works here for ya.

You are also missing other large contributors to downtown's resurgence:

1. What about Karmanos? He had the Compuware Building built and Campus Martius built.

2. What about the 2 casinos downtown?

Yeah, others jumped on the Ilitch CoDetroit bandwagon. Its true. We'll never know if these things would have happened if not for Ilitch. Yeah, probably. Maybe better. Maybe worse. But if you think Mr. I didn't make a difference, you're wrong.

Ilitch has demolished two or three times as many buildings as he has done anything with. You don't think the Detroit Life Building or the Women's Club Building on Park Avenue wouldn't be restored by now if they were owned by somebody else. See the GAR building.

I get the argument. But spend some time in other major cities, and see how old buildings get treated. I don't think Ilitch's save/destroy ratio is much different than elsewhere.

So if Ilitch wasn't around, we probably would not have had the 4 Stanley Cup Championships, but we would still have Tiger Stadium [[a win!), and more of our downtown could be dedicated to offices and residences that have people/traffic 365 days a year. Madison-Lennox Hotel, Adams Theater, etc.

You think other ballclub owners would have save Tiger Stadium? Really?

I loved Tiger Stadium. I miss Tiger Stadium. But I don't blame Ilitch for doing everyone was doing. [[But we can dream, can't we?)

[Warrenite84]

IMHO Mike Ilitch was not the white knight that saved Detroit. Certainly shades of grey in that he restored some things, and destroyed some things. It's the vindictiveness he exhibited when he had the façade of the Lennox building destroyed instead of salvaged that bothered me.

Since his development is downtown and not in the burbs, the Ilitch Organization needs to be sensitive to the interested parties who also live and work there. That's called being a good corporate citizen. For as much as the people of Metro Detroit have kicked in to get this project off the ground, Ilitch must "give back" in being flexible and accommodating in part to those who helped make it possible.

[Warrenite84]

Will the city or state "claw back" tax breaks if the Ilitch Organization does not fulfill the residential portion of their agreement?

[southen]

The bashing of the Illitch family is completely unwarranted.

Are they perfect? No. Am I a fan of everything they've done in the city? Not at all. All of that said, the reality is in if weren't for them sticking it out in downtown Detroit during the 80s - 2000s and maintaining at least SOME level of investment, there's a good chance [[to name a few things):

*Downtown would be completely beyond repair

*The Tigers, Symphony Orchestra, WDIV, American / Lafayette Coney Islands, GM, DTE Energy, Comerica & Red Wings would have all gone to the suburbs. The Orchestra, Tigers and Red Wings would have likely changed their name to something stupid and provincial like "The Symphony Orchestra of SE Michigan."

*The Pistons & Lions would have never returned downtown.

*Campbell-Ewald would have never returned downtown.

*We wouldn't be getting a mid-rise Little Caesars HQ and it would have stayed in the suburbs.

*The Fox Theatre would have been demolished

*Dan Gilbert would see absolutely no point in saving the city, shifting his time & money to a place like Cleveland and thus no Q-Line or new skyscrapers on the Hudson & Monroe blocks.

*Cass Tech would have likely relocated to a more "densely populated" part of the city.

*Cobo Hall would have been shuttered and the NAIAS would likely be taking place in some location like the Suburban Showplace in Novi.

When everyone else thought Detroit was dead and worthless [[thus didn't pour a single dime of investment into the city), including many of us on this forum, it was the Illitch family who remained. Frankly, Detroit owes its life to the Illitches.

This made me laugh. Thank you.

[Zads07]

The bashing of the Illitch family is completely unwarranted.

Are they perfect? No. Am I a fan of everything they've done in the city? Not at all. All of that said, the reality is in if weren't for them sticking it out in downtown Detroit during the 80s - 2000s and maintaining at least SOME level of investment, there's a good chance [[to name a few things):

*Downtown would be completely beyond repair

*The Tigers, Symphony Orchestra, WDIV, American / Lafayette Coney Islands, GM, DTE Energy, Comerica & Red Wings would have all gone to the suburbs. The Orchestra, Tigers and Red Wings would have likely changed their name to something stupid and provincial like "The Symphony Orchestra of SE Michigan."

*The Pistons & Lions would have never returned downtown.

*Campbell-Ewald would have never returned downtown.

*We wouldn't be getting a mid-rise Little Caesars HQ and it would have stayed in the suburbs.

*The Fox Theatre would have been demolished

*Dan Gilbert would see absolutely no point in saving the city, shifting his time & money to a place like Cleveland and thus no Q-Line or new skyscrapers on the Hudson & Monroe blocks.

*Cass Tech would have likely relocated to a more "densely populated" part of the city.

*Cobo Hall would have been shuttered and the NAIAS would likely be taking place in some location like the Suburban Showplace in Novi.

When everyone else thought Detroit was dead and worthless [[thus didn't pour a single dime of investment into the city), including many of us on this forum, it was the Illitch family who remained. Frankly, Detroit owes its life to the Illitches.

Well this is going a bit overboard, but you certainly make some solid points. No, downtown would not be beyond repair. Highly unlikely Ilitch is responsible for keeping the DSO, both ICONIC coney islands, WDIV, GM, DTE in Detroit. The only reason the Wings stayed in the city was the massive deal Coleman Young Jr. gave Ilitch when he built Joe Louis Arena. It's unlikely the Tigers would've moved out of the city because Ilitch wanted to keep them near his empire at the Fox.

The Pistons finally returned downtown thanks to Tom Gores [[and Ilitch). Lions return downtown probably a cause of Comerica so I'll give you a point there. No idea on Campbell-Ewald and why they returned, but they came to Ford Field, so I'll give that one to the Fords for having the space.

Credit to LCHQ building, that'll be interesting to see it when it's done. The Fox Theatre is unlikely to have been demolished. For such an historic structure I don't see how that would've been torn down even without Ilitch.

Gilbert came in during the Great Recession so no, you can't point to Ilitch for helping him come in.

Cass Tech, I really don't understand this argument. They would be located in a much more dense part of the city? The alumni spent money on the new building right behind it....no points.

I have no idea how Ilitch is responsible for the NAIAS and Cobo. Quite literally no correlation. They almost left during the Great Recession but the stay paid off.

So I count 2 points out of all of that. The logic here is off for you, but good try though.

[emu steve]

While the great debate continues... the improvements in the sports and entertainment district look better and better every day...

[Bham1982]

Even if the Illitch family were to suddenly build a bunch of high rise office buildings, condos, and apartments on the land they own, DetroitYes would be bitching and moaning about the architecture, location of the "street wall", lack of affordable housing, and appropriateness of the commercial tenants.

I don't think so. If they built even one such development, I think people on DYes would be praising them to the heavens.

But they will never do such a thing. They have a 40-year-track record of failure.

[Bham1982]

No other city in the U.S. [[not NYC, L.A., BOS, CLE, etc.) will have a sports and entertainment district like it... [MLB/NHL/NBA alone should be 175+ events per year.]

Should be about 5 - 6M patrons per year.

And thank God for that.

Those cities [[excepting Cleveland) are actually vibrant, functioning cities, that don't want to turn their city cores into parking fields, blank-walled stadia, and game-day traffic sewers of suburbanites chasing away urban vibrancy.

Maybe we should put Detroit Metro Airport right downtown. Hell, they get like 35 million annual passengers, so imagine the "vibrancy" we would be getting then. Take that NYC and Paris!

[Bham1982]

The bashing of the Illitch family is completely unwarranted.

Are they perfect? No. Am I a fan of everything they've done in the city? Not at all. All of that said, the reality is in if weren't for them sticking it out in downtown Detroit during the 80s - 2000s and maintaining at least SOME level of investment, there's a good chance [[to name a few things):

*Downtown would be completely beyond repair

*The Tigers, Symphony Orchestra, WDIV, American / Lafayette Coney Islands, GM, DTE Energy, Comerica & Red Wings would have all gone to the suburbs. The Orchestra, Tigers and Red Wings would have likely changed their name to something stupid and provincial like "The Symphony Orchestra of SE Michigan."

*The Pistons & Lions would have never returned downtown.

*Campbell-Ewald would have never returned downtown.

*We wouldn't be getting a mid-rise Little Caesars HQ and it would have stayed in the suburbs.

*The Fox Theatre would have been demolished

*Dan Gilbert would see absolutely no point in saving the city, shifting his time & money to a place like Cleveland and thus no Q-Line or new skyscrapers on the Hudson & Monroe blocks.

*Cass Tech would have likely relocated to a more "densely populated" part of the city.

*Cobo Hall would have been shuttered and the NAIAS would likely be taking place in some location like the Suburban Showplace in Novi.

When everyone else thought Detroit was dead and worthless [[thus didn't pour a single dime of investment into the city), including many of us on this forum, it was the Illitch family who remained. Frankly, Detroit owes its life to the Illitches.

This entire thread is absurd. At first I thought it was satire, but I think you're serious.

The idea that macroeconomics would cease to exist if the Illitches weren't around, and there would be no pizza places, no sports teams, no theaters, no symphonies, no conventions, no high schools, no transit, is completely bizarre.

The Fox Theater was in decent shape when Illitch bought it. Why would it be destroyed when we were entering an age of theater restoration? Why would all the sports teams head for the suburbs, when the trend is in the opposite direction? Why would a gigantic convention center be closed? Why would Cass Tech move? Why would the symphony move? Why would transit not be built?

[313WX]

And thank God for that.

Those cities [[excepting Cleveland) are actually vibrant, functioning cities, that don't want to turn their city cores into parking fields, blank-walled stadia, and game-day traffic sewers of suburbanites chasing away urban vibrancy.

Maybe we should put Detroit Metro Airport right downtown. Hell, they get like 35 million annual passengers, so imagine the "vibrancy" we would be getting then. Take that NYC and Paris!

The bolded makes no sense.

For many years [[as recently as the early 2010s), downtown was a ghost town outside of game days at Comerica / Ford Field. highways and avenues in / out of the city were also heavily underutilized during rush hour. It was the "game-day traffic sewers of suburbanites" that made the city actually feel like a real city for a few hours.

[313WX]

The Fox Theater was in decent shape when Illitch bought it. Why would it be destroyed when we were entering an age of theater restoration?

Like everything else in the city during the 80s - 2000s, the Fox Theatre was abandoned with no interested buyers stepping up to the plate to buy it and renovate it. That "age of theatre restoration" was certainly not happening in Detroit.

I'm all for constructive criticism, but let's actually do so with our facts being straight.

Why would all the sports teams head for the suburbs, when the trend is in the opposite direction?

Both the Pistons and Lions left for the far outer ring of the suburbs during the 1980s. If it wasn't for Illitch owning the Red Wings and Tigers, it's unlikely whoever else owned them would have had any interest of keeping them downtown.

Why would a gigantic convention center be closed?

Why was a gigantic department store on Woodward Avenue closed down and demolished? Why were gigantic skyscrapers abandoned?

Why would Cass Tech move? Why would the symphony move?

Most of the kids who attend Cass Tech and most of the people who patronize the symphony live in the suburbs and the outer edges of the city. It would have made a lot more sense for them to move closer to their customer / student base. The fact that they stuck it out at all was purely out of loyalty and tradition to the city [[and of course, the Illitch family maintaining some level of activity downtown), not for any realistic reasons.

Why would transit not be built?

How well was that transit-thingy going before Dan Gilbert came along and ponied up his money for the Q-Line?

[southen]

Asks for facts but provides wild speculation...

Forbes owned the Fox and was maintaining/restoring it before it was sold to Ilitch. It wasn't abandoned. Ilitch had the funds that Forbes didn't.

The Red Wings had been playing at Joe Louis for three years when he purchased the team. They were never going to leave under his watch, plus it was a sweetheart lease.

The Tigers played at beloved Tiger Stadium and given the family's love of taxpayer dollars it would have been tough to find a community willing to fork over that kind of dough.

By your logic a convention center would cease to exist if a theater isn't renovated and there isn't professional hockey and baseball nearby? Is there any logic to that thought process?

Case Tech? Really?

Claiming that DSO would have left if not for Ilitch discounts the contributions of the Fisher family and the folks there that have maintained that institution.

What other outlandish, factless claims can we make? Perhaps Belle Isle would have sunk into the river without Mikes support? I'd love to be proven wrong though, maybe you can post the articles showing that the coney restaurants stayed afloat due to the Ilitchs or how GM and DTE only chose downtown because of the Fox, Tigers and Wings. Gilbert has done more downtown in the last year than the Ilitchs have done in three decades. This whole claim is asinine.

[bust]

The Fox was definitely not abandoned. I saw a concert there in 1986. I wanted to but couldn't go to one that was there in 1987. Ilitch bought it in 1988.

And I'll give Ilitch credit for renovating it. It was and will always remain the singular best thing he did for the city of Detroit. I'm grateful for that.

But the Ilitch family's track record since then has been miserable. I won't go into detail... I've written it here many times before. As briefly as I can say it: weigh the sum total of their actions since the Fox and they sure come out ahead but I don't think the city of Detroit does. On the contrary. Even if you think sports stadiums are just what a thriving downtown needs they came at enormous expense to other priorities.

The money for LCA was diverted from schools. Even the lunatics who think starving the schools of funding will somehow cure their dysfunction should be able to come up with a much better use for over $300 million in taxpayer money.

The people who disagree with me think sports arenas are a lot better for cities than I do. I'm glad we have them but wish they weren't almost smack downtown and so close together. Bham's airport analogy isn't far off.

I miss Tiger Stadium but closing it has been great for Corktown.

[313WX]

Forbes owned the Fox and was maintaining/restoring it before it was sold to Ilitch. It wasn't abandoned. Ilitch had the funds that Forbes didn't.

By the time Illitch took it over, the Fox was nothing more than a low rate theatre that primarily showed b-movies. The offices above the theatre itself were empty for a long time.

It wasn't technically abandoned, but it was definitely on its death bed by any normal measure.

The Red Wings had been playing at Joe Louis for three years when he purchased the team. They were never going to leave under his watch, plus it was a sweetheart lease.

Well of course they weren't going to leave under his watch. It was in his best interest to ensure that Red Wings fan spent money at establishments he operated downtown.

However, I should remind you that under the previous ownership, there were serious negotiations ongoing with Pontiac for a new arena [[the reasons cited were the rapid decline of the city) which gave way to this "sweetheart lease" as you call it.That proves my point, doesn't it?

The Tigers played at beloved Tiger Stadium and given the family's love of taxpayer dollars it would have been tough to find a community willing to fork over that kind of dough.

See my comment about what was in it for Illitch in keeping the Tigers downtown.

By your logic a convention center would cease to exist if a theater isn't renovated and there isn't professional hockey and baseball nearby? Is there any logic to that thought process?

I didn't say any of that.

I *DID* say that it was very clear during the 1980s - 2000s that absolutely no one in Michigan except for Mike Illitch and the two legacy bank HQs [[Comerica and National Bank of Detroit) wanted anything to do with downtown Detroit, which included business conferences. Hell, even as recently as the late 2000s, you had homers in the suburbs trying to boast the Suburban Collection Showplace in Novi as a venue for the NAIAS.

Case Tech? Really?

I don't know about *Case* Tech, but as far as Cass Tech, what I said is true.

Claiming that DSO would have left if not for Ilitch discounts the contributions of the Fisher family and the folks there that have maintained that institution.

Back in 1987, there was also serious discussion about moving the DSO to the suburbs, for the same reasons the Red Wings were in serious negotiations to relocate to Pontiac. However, after seeing Illitch take the lead on successfully reviving the Fox Theatre, they thought the same could be done with Orchestra Hall.

...

how GM and DTE only chose downtown because of the Fox, Tigers and Wings.

The main appeal of locating in a CBD is proximity to all of the cultural attractions. Without those cultural attractions, the appeal would be gone.

maybe you can post the articles showing that the coney restaurants stayed afloat due to the Ilitchs

The hundreds of millions of dollars Tigers and Red Wings fan, as well as concert goers at the Fox Theatre, I'm sure helped them quite a bit.

[bust]

...But spend some time in other major cities, and see how old buildings get treated. I don't think Ilitch's save/destroy ratio is much different than elsewhere.

I have. And there are lots of terrible landlords elsewhere, some places more than others. But I can't think of any whose save/destroy ratio has destroyed as much of a city's urban fabric as the Ilitch family's has destroyed Detroit's. Not even close. Can you?

You'll probably say it would have happened anyway. We can debate that. But regardless as to the outcome of that the fact remains over and over again it's been the Ilitch family who left their historic architecture unsecured and open to the elements to rot. And who paid for the demolition crews to seal their final demise. ...Except of course when they managed to get the city to pay the demolition crews for them.

Meanwhile, it isn't only Dan Gilbert who is a much more conscientious steward of our once great city's history as he develops Detroit's future. We have Peter Cummings and Chuck Forbes. Fernando Palazuelo is trying to do something amazing and may just succeed. And there are a host of others without anywhere near the Ilitch's deep pockets who are renovating "old buildings" / historic architecture in Detroit: The Roxbury Group, Joel Landy, ASH NYC, Aparium, Ron Castellano, the Brennan Family...

Even a small design firm accomplished what the Ilitches would not: Mindfield renovated the GAR Building after Olympia did nothing with it for years. Here's what it looked like when the Ilitches' owned it. Look at it today.

Do you fail to see a pattern emerge?

[emu steve]

On the contrary. Even if you think sports stadiums are just what a thriving downtown needs they came at enormous expense to other priorities.

The money for LCA was diverted from schools. Even the lunatics who think starving the schools of funding will somehow cure their dysfunction should be able to come up with a much better use for over $300 million in taxpayer money.

Again, this is a falsehood.

The actually money is the from DDDA [[http://www.degc.org/about-degc/city-...ment-authority) which has its own funding sources, mostly tax increment collections.

Their mission is to stimulate development in the central business district.

The money for the schools are old, bad debts and are not current operating funds. It is mostly accounting and financing of how public monies are collected, spent, and recouped. It is NOT a gift.

Again, I wish someone, presumably in the media or a local university, would provide a good look at the financing.

To me, it is essentially like a 30 year mortgage. The money is given up front by the lender and the borrower pays it off.

In the case of the arena, there is the tax increment collections, rent payments by the Iltiches and Gores, non-resident tax collections from performers at LCA, etc.

No one has discussed it, but how much will Gores pay per year as rent for usage of the arena? That is a fairly nice chunk of change. It was like a gift from heaven. Wasn't expected when the deal for the arena was struck but thank you, thank you, thank you...

None of that is school monies or monies which would have been collected if the arena had not been built.

I assume that the amount collected BECAUSE of the arena will be less than the amount of the debt service, but I doubt the yearly amount would be too much.

So if the city runs a shortfall of say 3 - 5M / year on the arena, was that money well spent???

After all, the business of government is to SPEND money. Be it for schools, public safety and criminal justice, roads and infrastructure, public health, etc. etc. It is simply deciding what is worthwhile spending...

[Bham1982]

The bolded makes no sense.

For many years [[as recently as the early 2010s), downtown was a ghost town outside of game days at Comerica / Ford Field. highways and avenues in / out of the city were also heavily underutilized during rush hour. It was the "game-day traffic sewers of suburbanites" that made the city actually feel like a real city for a few hours.

Downtown was much more vibrant prior to the construction of Comerica/Ford Field. The 1980's and early 1990's had far more foot traffic than today.

And no, I don't see urban vibrancy when I go to a game. I see a bajillion cars headed downtown, and then people walking from the parking lots into the stadium. Then everything empties out after, and nothing but garbage left behind.

[Bham1982]

Like everything else in the city during the 80s - 2000s, the Fox Theatre was abandoned with no interested buyers stepping up to the plate to buy it and renovate it. That "age of theatre restoration" was certainly not happening in Detroit.

The Fox was not abandoned. In fact it was well-used as a concert destination. It had been a movie theater and concert destination for decades.

I'm all for constructive criticism, but let's actually do so with our facts being straight.

Indeed.

Both the Pistons and Lions left for the far outer ring of the suburbs during the 1980s. If it wasn't for Illitch owning the Red Wings and Tigers, it's unlikely whoever else owned them would have had any interest of keeping them downtown.

Based on what? Gores moved the Pistons downtown. Monaghan, when he owned the Tigers, wanted to build a new baseball stadium downtown.

Why was a gigantic department store on Woodward Avenue closed down and demolished? Why were gigantic skyscrapers abandoned?

What does the closing of a department store have to do with the utilization of a convention center? How do retail trends intersect with meeting space trends?

Most of the kids who attend Cass Tech and most of the people who patronize the symphony live in the suburbs and the outer edges of the city. It would have made a lot more sense for them to move closer to their customer / student base. The fact that they stuck it out at all was purely out of loyalty and tradition to the city [[and of course, the Illitch family maintaining some level of activity downtown), not for any realistic reasons.

The Cass demographic has nothing to do with the DSO demographic.

The Cass kids are from Detroit, not the suburbs. There have, in the history of Cass, probably been almost no kids from the suburbs. What does Illitch have to do with DPS and their school location methodology?

You still haven't explained how the DSO would have left if not for Illitch. Their base has been elderly whites from northern suburbs for 60 years.

How well was that transit-thingy going before Dan Gilbert came along and ponied up his money for the Q-Line?

What does this have to do with Illitch? And there were plenty of transit investments prior to Gilbert. People Mover was a much bigger project. Trolley 1.0 was built long before Gilbert.