Mercedes-Benz, BMW Unfair?

[Zacha341]

Yes, you still see some of those so-called old folks Buicks on the road which speaks to their durability. Course the Buick Regal was a model that could be tricked-out to be a young folks head-turner!

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Yes, you still see some of those so-called old folks Buicks on the road which speaks to their durability. Course the Buick Regal was a model that could be tricked-out to be a young folks head-turner!

Yes, the Regal is nice, as well as the new Cascada convertible.

[Richard]

The Buick Regal T type was and still is a nice old folks car,but pricey.

Kinda interesting is after WW2 VW was finished,the plant was bombed out but it was in the British sector,what happened was the Brit that was running the sector remembered driving the VW bug earlier and was impressed.

He figured that it would be a great idea to have them for the military to use while in country there,so he got the funds from the U.K. Gov to fix the plant enough to produce 200 cars,while they were repairing the damaged equipment to start production,the order jumped to 20,000.

So they started production with the plant still bombed out but with repaired equipment,and hand made the rest of the parts when the equipment was to damaged to repair.

A lot of those entry level US cars from the eighties,to me,were just cheap entry level cars,but the auto companies made big money on them.

The Aries K car saved Chrysler at that time,but was lucky to see 100,000 miles.When they mixed foreign engines with thier bodies they seemed to improve the longevity and reliability aspect.

The VW rabbit diesel truck,the Chevrolet chevette with the Isuzu diesel,the Chevrolet Luv truck with the Diesel were all 50 mpg + cars and still are worth big bucks for export but hard to find.

The Dodge D50,the little pick up truck with the Mitsubishi motor was a 250,000 mile plus trucks.

Anyways,my friend and his wife come here from the UK regularly 4 to 6 weeks at a time and thier package flight includes a mid size rental car.

We travel a lot for car shows and swap meets so he gets the little SUV ,when it comes to road noise,ride comfort,dependability on a brand new car and considering that these are econo boxes,I have to admit the American built ones far surpass the imports.

Yea,the American cars of the 60s and mid 70s I would not think twice of jumping in on a cross country trip,the majority of the 80s most are not on the road anymore,the dark years.

But on the mechanical side there was to much experimentation and the rush to implement emissions due to government mandates that played a big part in that mess so I find it hard to a point to place all the blame on the manufacturers.

[Zacha341]

Gosh! I remember that K Car with its flat rail-bar dopey suspension and total lack of durability [[clackity-clack engine). At that time I was driving [[used) Toyota Tercels well over 150K miles, tough I was glad to get away from the yucky-looking hatch-back deal of those college-day Tercels.

I recall Honda had rear wish-bone suspension even in their base-model little Civics, yet Chevy Citations and Sienna's were saggy-bottom riders. US cars had wish-bone suspension mostly for their larger luxury class cars back then.

I love that new Buick Verano. Too bad Buick's ending their production : [[

The Aries K car saved Chrysler at that time,but was lucky to see 100,000 miles.When they mixed foreign engines with thier bodies they seemed to improve the longevity and reliability aspect.

[Zacha341]

The Buick Regal T type was and still is a nice old folks car, but pricey.

Here you go! Buick Grand National T Top. Sweeeeeet!

[SyGolden48236]

My wife is on her 3rd Buick Enclave right now and is anxiously waiting for the new re-designed Enclave that will be out in the fall. That will be her 4th Enclave in a row. They have not given her a moment of trouble. They are top quality cars.

[Zacha341]

Now, you just stop that Richard!

Next you'll be saying all liberals drove Volvos back then! Back in my college days I knew to stay away from European cars. Too hard and expensive to maintain!

But there was nothing like at least test driving a VW. What a unique sounding engine. Hah!!

Then the whiny liberals cried so much because they could not afford to purchase a Mercedes or BMW that auto plants were established in the southern US to help the rest of the country from drowning to death from all of the tears.

The whiny liberals cried so much that there is really no luxury cars left presey because every car became a computer generated box epifiny that makes it hard to even identify what the heck it is even more.

[Hermod]

Back in the 1970s, I was working in an office. One of the guys had bought his wife [[or she had chosen) a Chevrolet Vile Vega. The other guy's wife had a Pontiac Awful Astra [[same car as the Vega, but rebadged). It was a continuing soap opera listening to their tales of woe after each [[frequent) trip to the dealer's service department.

[Richard]

I had a Vega and liked it,they were designed to be rail shipped inverted with things like the battery caps on one side,so it could be started and driven away from the rail car after delivery.Even the rail cars were specially built to ship them.

The Crosworth Vega Gt was a mean little car and the engines today still bring $3000 and more for racing,more then the car sold for.

They were funny though,you either had one that you could drive the tires off of or one that you would be lucky to go a week at a time,there did not seem to be an inbetween.

They did make some nice mid size cars that were much better,Grand Prix,Trans am etc. but they killed it in 1984 with the crossover duel fuel injection but got it right after 1985.

They just seem at the time they could not produce a reliable lower priced car.

[Richard]

Now, you just stop that Richard!

Next you'll be saying all liberals drove Volvos back then! Back in my college days I knew to stay away from European cars. Too hard and expensive to maintain!

But their was noting like at least test driving a VW. What a unique sounding engine. Hah!!

I was being sarcastic,I had a 1989 Volvo turbo station wagon that you could put the back seats down and slide a 4x8 in the back,4 cyl,4 speed with overdrive.

For a 4500 pound car it would fly and get close to 40 mpg and nobody would pay you any mind because it was a station wagon.But the previous owner paid $68,000 for it in 1989.

I had a friend that had a Volvo specialist shop,when they were considered yuppie cars,he would get $1800 for a brake job and order the factory parts out of California for about $300.You have to change everything and cannot just hang new pads.

Most European cars are based on exact tolerances,other then that they are the same as US,they need fuel and spark.

Where their parts become expensive is sometimes times they would try something one year then change it the next,I have a 1976 450SEL convertible that two rubber bushings in the rear suspension are over $500 because they only made them for that car for that year.

I had a 1968 Benz and a 66 MGB,both cars came from the factory with 4 wheel disk brakes,two totally different ends of the spectrum but yet at the time way ahead of the US manufacturers.

The US has always mastered the compatibility aspect though on parts interchangeably so cheaper to maintain.

Funny,I drive a 1997 Jaguar xj6 now,it was built during the Ford years of ownership,best thing that ever happened to the car,people are getting over 350,000 miles on them.A fuel injector from Jaguar is $260 but it is the exact same injector that the Mercury mariner used that is $130.

The vintage Mercedes that I had used a early style a/c compressor that was common on Fords,and Eletricial parts that were the same as VW so they are cheap enough to fix,you just have to figure out how not to pay for the name.

[ABetterDetroit]

I also like this thread and have no problems following Richard, tho not always agreeing with him, I enjoy seeing different points of view.

Personally, I always prefer cars over trucks, unless I have something to haul or pull. In my opinion rear wheel drive cars have a distinct road handling advantage over front wheel drive and the Germans have used that platform to destroy the domestic luxury makers in head to head comparisons in all size automobiles. Caddy has had the lights come on and is making a game of it lately but Lincoln is still deep in the dark. If front wheel drive is your thing [[snow, ice, lower cost) there is a plethora of domestics as well as Japanese models to choose from as well as VW. For rear wheel drive lovers like myself not so much if you don't want a truck, Vette, Stang or Camaro.

P.S. For Richard in memory of Lucas The Prince of Darkness
http://www.mez.co.uk/lucas.html

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Here you go! Buick Grand National T Top. Sweeeeeet!

Darth Vader !! The Grand National was in a class of it's own. Sinister looks, and was the fastest production car produced in the 80's, even with a Turbocharged V-6. The GNX models are real primo and command big bucks.

[Hermod]

P.S. For Richard in memory of Lucas The Prince of Darkness
http://www.mez.co.uk/lucas.html

In the days of Lucas, English built cars had headlights with three settings: Off, Dim, and Flicker. English cars refused to start after a heavy dew.

[Richard]

When she finally says yes to the date to see a movie,on the way,it starts raining,so you have to pull over,open the hood and with a cigarette lighter in one hand twist fuses and wires until the wipers come on,then you get to spend the next hour freezing in the movie theater while half soaking wet and wondering if the car is going to actually make it home.

You could take her to the drive-in and be the last to leave,when she asks why we are waiting,the best reply would be that you have enjoyed her company so much you want make it last.

Which is code speak for,because if we leave now and the damn car cuts out in the middle of the line for no reason ,there will be 50 cars behind us laying on their horn for us to get out of the way and it might be embarrassing to you when I ask you to help push it out of the way.

Cool link and so true

But nobody was able to reproduce the feel of a good old 1960s American V8 when you shove that pedal to the floor.

[Richard]

If I wanted to export a car to China the duties and fees would be 62% of the value,if I want to export from China to the US the duties and fees are 2% of the value.

Still trying to nail down the BMW and Mercedes aspect but it does appear that thier factories here mostly were set up to export cars to different countries because of our trade agreements.

The US is a import country that carries the lowest import taxes and duties and Germany is an export country that carries the largest duties and tax levy in all of Europe on imports because they are a keep it in the country aspect like China.

[313WX]

If I wanted to export a car to China the duties and fees would be 62% of the value,if I want to export from China to the US the duties and fees are 2% of the value.

Still trying to nail down the BMW and Mercedes aspect but it does appear that thier factories here mostly were set up to export cars to different countries because of our trade agreements.

The US is a import country that carries the lowest import taxes and duties and Germany is an export country that carries the largest duties and tax levy in all of Europe on imports because they are a keep it in the country aspect like China.

At least originally, the German and Japenese automakers built factories in America to get around the "chicken tax" Reagan had imposed on foreign vehicles. German and Japanese automakers tend to literally "build where they sale."

The Big 3 are the only automakers I know that actually build their cars in foreign nations and then import them into the US for sale.

[Zacha341]

---- I was just joshing you. Your explanation of why European cars are so expensive to repair sounds right. I'd heard of people having to replace their entire brakes [[rotor, calipers, and pads) no matter what, and thought they were just getting totally ripped off...

The inability to simply [[and more affordably) 'hang' just the pads as you said... What a pain! I've had rotors and or pads changed without touching the calipers on most of my cars [[Toyota's, Fords, Honda's).

And parts interchangeably from year to year is an advantage!

I was being sarcastic,I had a 1989 Volvo turbo station wagon that you could put the back seats down and slide a 4x8 in the back,4 cyl,4 speed with overdrive.

Most European cars are based on exact tolerances,other then that they are the same as US,they need fuel and spark.

Where their parts become expensive is sometimes times they would try something one year then change it the next,I have a 1976 450SEL convertible that two rubber bushings in the rear suspension are over $500 because they only made them for that car for that year.

[Zacha341]

Goodness, then it must have been great for dependability in England with plenty of fog and dew!

In the days of Lucas, English built cars had headlights with three settings: Off, Dim, and Flicker. English cars refused to start after a heavy dew.

[archfan]

Looks like Germany's import duties total 29%:

Importing a car from outside the EU

A car or other motor vehicle imported to Germany from outside the EU is normally subject to a 10% import duty and a 19% import value added tax.

[Hermod]

Goodness, then it must have been great for dependability in England with plenty of fog and dew!

That is why you don't see English cars anymore [[MG, Triumph, Morgan, Cooper, Austin, Austin-Healey, Sterling, etc)

The remaining makes [[Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Jaguar, Rover, and Mini) are run by foreign [[to the UK) makers.

[Zacha341]

^^^ Yeah general car repairs and maintenance are one thing but nothing worse than an tinker-mobile that's finicky in starting up. No thanks!

[Richard]

Looks like Germany's import duties total 29%:

Importing a car from outside the EU

A car or other motor vehicle imported to Germany from outside the EU is normally subject to a 10% import duty and a 19% import value added tax.

That is what the adverage indivual pays,a business or manufacturer pays a different rate.Which pretty much is common with every country and import/export.

The title of the thread and opening paragraph is a bit misleading.

President Trump was actually referring to the trade deficit and the German automakers roll in it and how it effects this country.

We scraped the whipped cream off of the pie and left the pie.

In theory when one trades everybody wants to come out even,if I trade you a Cadillac for a Ford pinto,who walks away with the better deal.

In 2016, the United States imported $584 billion in generic drugs, televisions, clothing and other household items. It only exported $194 billion, adding $397 billion to the deficit. America imported $350 billion worth of automobiles and parts, while only exporting $150 billion. That added $200 billion to the deficit.

https://www.thebalance.com/u-s-trade-deficit-causes-effects-trade-partners-3306276

If we are importing more then exporting then the balance is off
if we slow the rate of imports and the demand stays the same then that demand has to be filled by Americans building the products here which equals jobs.

When countries dump products on our market in mass they can do so because thier government is subsidizing the dump to prop up thier export numbers and put thier people to work.

We do the same thing for the US auto manufacturers in other countries to help their numbers and jobs here.

Then the biggest argument becomes,if you slow imports and exports it hurts American jobs by not allowing world trade.

It is not true,the US is the market to break into for another country and if a US manufacturer is producing a product that they want and need,it will still be exported.

I export used restaurant equipment to South America and the Middle East,China has flooded the market with brand new equipment,comparatively they offer a brand new cooler for $500.I sell the used equivalent that is 10 years old for $800.

New China made $500,new American made $2300.

Why do they pay me more for a piece of used equipment when they can buy a brand new one with free shipping.

Because it was made in America,and when we decide to build a product,we build a good product,that is what we are known for.

The market and demand is there,we just figured it was easier to sit back and buy others cheap crap instead of building products that people want and that will last more then 6 months.

We gave people no other choice but to buy cheap crap.

Tighten the noose,increase demand within this country which in turn fires the factory's up and puts people back to work building products to fill the demand.

That is what it is about.

Personaly I care more about my fellow Americans ability to enjoy a better lifestyle,more money in the system to pay for the better education and to help others with more options,then I do for Mercedes and BMW.

We are not producing a generation of dummies and uneducated drop outs,we are robbing them of a future in exchange for cheap products,and then trying to figure out how to support them at the cost of the few that have the means.

[Pat001]

As recently as 1999, Lincoln was the #1 luxury brand in the U.S. Today Lincoln is dead last in sales, resale value, owner loyalty and just about any other parameter you choose. Ford's senior management trashed the Lincoln brand all by themselves. Can't blame the Asian and European manufacturers for filling the vacuum.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

As recently as 1999, Lincoln was the #1 luxury brand in the U.S. Today Lincoln is dead last in sales, resale value, owner loyalty and just about any other parameter you choose. Ford's senior management trashed the Lincoln brand all by themselves. Can't blame the Asian and European manufacturers for filling the vacuum.

I find that hard to believe, Lincoln was the number 1 luxury US brand, even in 1999. I always saw more Cadillac's on the road, and they have always been deemed the better american luxury car, and it surely holds true now. Cadillac's have edgier designs. That new Continental isn't that good looking to me. Looks like a 'poor mans' Bentley, even though they aren't cheap in price.

[Honky Tonk]

In the days of Lucas, English built cars had headlights with three settings: Off, Dim, and Flicker. English cars refused to start after a heavy dew.

Back in the 60's I discovered that Sears carried a coil with the identical specs to the Lucas in my Spitfire. The Sears coil and a set of Packard 440 wires resolved the starting problems. Though the Packard 440's made it hard to listen to the Hendrix 8-Track.