Mercedes-Benz, BMW Unfair?

[Bham1982]

Some people do realize the USA has 2 massive oceans protecting it,
with Canada to the north and Mexico to the south.
It's a god damn island - compared to Europe with terrorists for decades.

Trump will be tested with good ol white boy nutcases shooting up USA.
http://bit.ly/WhiteKill

Europe has far less terrorism than in the past. In the 1970's and 1980's, terrorists like Bader Meinhoff [[Germany), ETA [[Spain), IRA [[UK), killed far more Europeans, alongside an epidemic of kidnappings, but none of those were Muslim terrorists so it "doesn't count" according to the MAGA crowd.

They think European cities are in ruins and under Shariah law, and have probably never left the country, while the Europeans are laughing at us with our idiot "leader" and 10x greater murder rate.

[Zacha341]

Again we have the Both/And factor at work here.

The threats, terror and murdering is not exclusive to one group. Nope. We're getting hit by 'Both' the white supremacists 'And' the Radical Islamist's [[no, I did not say all Muslims), 'And' others as the case stands.

Wikipedia offers a fairly accurate listing [[note the time-line chart circa 2000 onward for context) of the eh-hm, 'diversity' [[white 'nutcases' and others) of terror we're experiencing, increasingly, here in the US:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terror..._United_States

Some people do realize the USA has 2 massive oceans protecting it,
with Canada to the north and Mexico to the south.
It's a god damn island - compared to Europe with terrorists for decades.

Trump will be tested with good ol white boy nutcases shooting up USA.
http://bit.ly/WhiteKill

[Jimaz]

... but none of those were Muslim terrorists so it "doesn't count" according to the MAGA crowd....

That's the first time I've encountered that "Make America great again" acronym.

Urban dictionary has this to say:

MAGA

fuck something up on the pretense of making it better.

i hired new cleaners and they said they were going to make my house clean again but when i got back my dog was dead, my kitchen was on fire and they had taken a shit on my grandmother. they basically went MAGA on my property.

Oh, no! Mr. Trump, at least leave America's grandmother alone!

[EastsideAl]

I guess in theory as VW is owned by BMW it would stand to reason that criticizing the parent would also include the children.

VW is not owned by BMW. They are totally separate companies.

[SyGolden48236]

VW is not owned by BMW. They are totally separate companies.

This is absolutely correct. Volkswagen owns Audi, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Seat, Skoda, MAN Trucks, Scania and Porsche.

Volkswagen does not now, and never has owned BMW.

[Richard]

VW is not owned by BMW. They are totally separate companies.

A few years back I had a towing company,we were the only towing company in that metro that was authorized to pick up under factory warrenty for BMW,the service calls came in from both BMW and The Volkswagen group as the checks also came in separately from each.

I only applied for the contract from BMW directly,but yet automatically received the Volkswagen contract that was written as a seperate agreement.

The contracts were approved and paid for out of the financial services sectors of each but it was one decision.

On a smaller scale if one owns multiple rental properties and puts each property in a different corporation name,each property becomes an entity on its own.

At the end of the day if I was the one that provided the funding in part or partial for these properties if a tenant sued and the individual corporation for that house went bankrupt ,it would not effect the other corporations,but I would still incur a loss.

So that house was a seperate corporation with no ties to the others legally,due to the nature of it,there was still an involvement behind the scenes.

[Ray1936]

Maybe it's the Detroiter in me, but I have always thought that any American buying an Asian or European car is slightly un-American.

Yeah, I know most American cars have parts built elsewhere, but at least the profits don't go to some foreign country. Just sayin'.

[Richard]

Maybe it's the Detroiter in me, but I have always thought that any American buying an Asian or European car is slightly un-American.

Yeah, I know most American cars have parts built elsewhere, but at least the profits don't go to some foreign country. Just sayin'.

Most that I know are the same way,you feel good knowing that the money being spent is going to your fellow Americans and the country as a whole but with the whole bailout thing and other happenings the shift has been to the cheaper the better even if it costs others.

To me anyways the federal governments job is to look out for the interests of the taxpayers first and to protect those interests,after that is done then start thinking about others after our glass house windows are clean.

Sense January of this year the US has contributed 1.4 billion dollars to food relief only in the Middle East.1 billion into the global warming Paris fund that no other country has,we are obligated to pay for the countries that can not afford to,but yet every move that is made to protect the US soil interests is chastised,the money has to come from somewhere and it is coming at a cost detriment to individuals in this country.

People diss cities like Detroit but they do stop to think that the stronger cites like Detroit are the stronger we as a country are as a whole.

Then we can be in a position to help others out.

If Cadillac is hurting in the luxury car segment because of unfair trade agreements then yes I agree it is time to review the long term effects of those agreements,if Cadillac is hurting because they are not producing a quality car or not meeting the market demands then it would be on Cadillac to review thier game plan.

[Honky Tonk]

Maybe it's the Detroiter in me, but I have always thought that any American buying an Asian or European car is slightly un-American.

Yeah, I know most American cars have parts built elsewhere, but at least the profits don't go to some foreign country. Just sayin'.

There's two schools of thought on this, Ray. My last two vehicles were "foreign" but both were made in the USA, by American workers. What good are you doing if you're buying an "American" vehicle, made in a foreign country? You're only feeding those @ the top of the food chain. The new one is all American. Hope I get the same reliability I had previously.

[313WX]

Fourtanaly for the small business guy Nissan has the answer with the Titian V8 and useing the Utility code when ordering they provide a basic,tough truck with power and a basic no frills package.

In the south and with the self employed they are gaining ground fast and are replacing Ford and GM and that says a lot because usually they were die hard Ford or GM fans.

I think the primary reason for that is that folks in the south [[especially SE) are still bitter over Ford and GM virtually giving them the middle finger back in the 2000s when they shuttered most of their operations down there.

Meanwhile, the foreign automakers [[Toyota, Nissan, etc.) since the 2000s have been actively investing in the Southern US.

[EastsideAl]

So that house was a separate corporation with no ties to the others legally,due to the nature of it,there was still an involvement behind the scenes.

I think what you're talking about has to do with the structure of German vehicle distributors and dealers in the U.S. But the two companies are separate with no common ownership. Volkswagen Group is a publicly traded company. BMW is essentially controlled by the Quandt family, with only 50% of shares publicly traded under restrictions on how much can be held by any one party [[kind of like how the Ford family controls Ford). VW's largest shareholder is actually Porsche, so if you were to say that Porsche is linked to VW I would agree with you [[and there is also a historical link as well). Most of the other large shareholders are government entities, either in Germany or abroad [[Qatar).

I once worked for VW, and believe me, BMW was very much viewed there as a competitor [[as was Daimler/Mercedes). Sharing information with them would have gotten one fired [[and potentially jailed) very quickly.

[Jimaz]

...My last two vehicles were "foreign" but both were made in the USA, by American workers....

I was pleasantly surprised to learn that a Honda Accord I inherited was ranked in the top five most-American cars. The article said if the profits for that car didn't go to Japan it would have ranked even higher.

Go figure.

It has been a very reliable car over the years. I've discovered a few subtle engineering features that I doubt most others would notice.

When people do the right thing even when no one's watching, that's a good sign that you'll be happy with their product.

[Bham1982]

Maybe it's the Detroiter in me, but I have always thought that any American buying an Asian or European car is slightly un-American.

A ton of metro Detroit auto employment is at foreign firms. There are so many German, Japanese and Chinese firms, employing tens of thousands of metro Detroiters in high paying engineering and management jobs.

Basically any sizable German auto engineering firm has a major presence in Metro Detroit. They're mostly along I-96 and I-275. These are really good jobs, and the employees are buying homes, spending money and building their lives here.

[Bham1982]

And re. Volkswagen and BMW- not only are they separate companies, they're on opposite sides of Germany. Volkswagen is in Wolfsburg, in the far North, and BMW is in Munich, in the far South.

[Richard]

I think the quality and longevity of American cars has improved massively,in the 90s you could sell a Honda with 150,000 miles on it for top dollar and people would not blink an eye where as with an American car it was well known that once it hit 100k it was done with and hard to sell.

On the mechanics side of it if an import spec was .10 you had better be at that exactly where American cars were you could be close enough.

Now it not uncommon to see a ageing amercian car well over 200k and still going strong,in the south the sun just kills the interiors and all the little plastic bits quick and the use of recycled mixed plastics in there makes them impossible to glue back together.

[Richard]

I think what you're talking about has to do with the structure of German vehicle distributors and dealers in the U.S. But the two companies are separate with no common ownership. Volkswagen Group is a publicly traded company. BMW is essentially controlled by the Quandt family, with only 50% of shares publicly traded under restrictions on how much can be held by any one party [[kind of like how the Ford family controls Ford). VW's largest shareholder is actually Porsche, so if you were to say that Porsche is linked to VW I would agree with you [[and there is also a historical link as well). Most of the other large shareholders are government entities, either in Germany or abroad [[Qatar).

I once worked for VW, and believe me, BMW was very much viewed there as a competitor [[as was Daimler/Mercedes). Sharing information with them would have gotten one fired [[and potentially jailed) very quickly.

Thank you for that and could very well have been where my confusion came into play.

I read where a top BMW guy has joined with Volkswagen and based on what you are saying I can imagine that caused quite the internal stir.

[DetroitSoldier]

Not really on subject but I thought many would be amused by this story...

I am from Detroit, currently living in Germany. I drive my Chevy Equinox all over the Bavarian countryside, and often get some confused looks from the locals, curious to why I am driving "a bus" through their small towns. I often drive a sedan for trips into cities or areas where huge American SUV's are not practical or efficient. However on a recent trip to BMW Welt [[BMW HQ & Museum) in nearby Munich, I parked my Chevrolet on the street right in front of the building. The Germans loved seeing this "exotic" car. They made several complimentary comments about it and a couple engineers took photos with it.

[Zacha341]

Yeah, I can vouch for that. I had a old Toyota sedan purchased for a rather lofty cash price at 94K which was considered just 'broken-in' in terms of life span. Plus it had a new timing chain which really meant it was ready of the second, yet still strong half of its life. Hah!

I think the quality and longevity of American cars has improved massively,in the 90s you could sell a Honda with 150,000 miles on it for top dollar and people would not blink an eye where as with an American car it was well known that once it hit 100k it was done with and hard to sell.

On the mechanics side of it if an import spec was .10 you had better be at that exactly where American cars were you could be close enough.

Now it not uncommon to see a ageing amercian car well over 200k and still going strong,in the south the sun just kills the interiors and all the little plastic bits quick and the use of recycled mixed plastics in there makes them impossible to glue back together.

[softailrider]

I agree with all the above except...

"If you want to buy American, you'll get a terrific car."

I believe the correct term should be...

If you want to finance American, you'll get a terrific car.

It gets worse actually. Howz about financing a front loaded contract on a rapidly diminishing, consumable product. I don't want to call it an asset cause a car ain't.

I never said a car was an asset, I guess you could call it a depreciating asset and you wouldn't be wrong. Try living around here without one though.

I happen to really enjoy driving, I don't like traffic jams, but I'll give up my vehicles when they pry them out of my cold dead fingers.

Not suggesting that anyone purchase one, but Japanese vehicles do depreciate markedly less then domestic cars, if that's a consideration. Big time discounts off MSRP too.

[313WX]

Not suggesting that anyone purchase one, but Japanese vehicles do depreciate markedly less then domestic cars, if that's a consideration. Big time discounts off MSRP too.

That's partially because of consumer perception [[not necessarily because the Japanese make better cars), and partially because the Japanese OEMs don't fleet dump nearly to the extent that Ford / GM / Chrysler do.

[313WX]

Not really on subject but I thought many would be amused by this story...

I am from Detroit, currently living in Germany. I drive my Chevy Equinox all over the Bavarian countryside, and often get some confused looks from the locals, curious to why I am driving "a bus" through their small towns. I often drive a sedan for trips into cities or areas where huge American SUV's are not practical or efficient. However on a recent trip to BMW Welt [[BMW HQ & Museum) in nearby Munich, I parked my Chevrolet on the street right in front of the building. The Germans loved seeing this "exotic" car. They made several complimentary comments about it and a couple engineers took photos with it.

I'm curious to know, what are your thoughts on Mary Barra and Co's move to abandon Europe and how do other Germans feel about it?

[Hermod]

I think the primary reason for that is that folks in the south [[especially SE) are still bitter over Ford and GM virtually giving them the middle finger back in the 2000s when they shuttered most of their operations down there.

It started a lot earlier than that. During the 50s and 60s, the Big 3 were the only game in town and were a massive oligarchy. Every contract, the unions would scream "MORE" and the companies would make a show of protest before caving and then would crank the price to maintain the profit levels. Auto [[and steel) workers wage and benefits packages were roughly double the packages of all other manufacturing workers in the US. People then had to buy [[and pay for) cars that were made by people making twice what they were making. The troubles of the Big 3, of the auto workers in Detroit, and Detroit itself were often looked on as well-deserved karma by people outside of Michigan and they felt no loyalty to domestic cars.

[Zacha341]

Personally, I have found the some Japanese cars to be more durable, especially smaller car comparisons in the past. By the way what it does 'fleet dump' mean?

That's partially because of consumer perception [[not necessarily because the Japanese make better cars), and partially because the Japanese OEMs don't fleet dump nearly to the extent that Ford / GM / Chrysler do.

[DetroitSoldier]

The Germans actually appreciate the Chevrolet sports cars. In fact the Camero and Corvette are very popular over here and can be seen in any town on a daily basis. However, the needs of a vehicle to a typical German vs a typical American are different. Germans prefer functional space and speed. The standard GM products are geared for lower speeds. The typical speed on the autobahn here is roughly 85-90 MPH, with experienced drivers easily maintaining speeds in the 110-120 MPH range. The difference in the engineering of the vehicles for these commonly higher speeds requires more attention than just selling an American spec vehicle here in Germany. To really compete, it would require German spec engineering.

I know when I take my Equinox on the autobahn it drives well at 90 MPH but when I get up in the 110+ MPH range it loses that smooth comfortable ride and starts to fight me a little bit.

My father in law works for GM alongside German Engineers in Michigan. They all seem to love the American vehicles but say that their design is not suited to the needs of the typical European customer. I tend to agree with this.

[mikeg19]

It all boils down to perceived quality, not actual quality. People actually thought Range Rovers were a "great suv" and many people still do, yet they were constantly ranked as a crap quality automobile. It amazes me that so many people that can [[maybe) afford to pony up $110K for a suv have such little knowledge. But that's really where it's at. I'd estimate a good 50-75% of the general public could not tell the difference between the interior of a loaded down Chevy Impala and a Jaguar or BMW or Mercedes, yet the price point's couldn't be farther from each other.