Mercedes-Benz, BMW Unfair?

[Don K]

On his recent visit to Europe, the President famously whined that Mercedes-Benz, BMW, and Audi had unfairly sold too many luxury cars in the U.S., and that he would do something about it.

Now, I recognize that he was mostly fluffing his white-working-class base by confirming their prejudice that any setback for U.S. automakers must be the result of someone else cheating, but let's take his remarks at face value for the moment.

How many here agree that the Germans cleaned the clocks of Lincoln and Cadillac because of some sort of nefarious actions versus the idea that Lincoln and Cadillac just missed a fundamental shift in the market, aided by the crappy quality that was endemic in American cars in the 70s?

[EGrant]

As a millennial, I look at Caddilac and see an old person's car. Thier marketing is boring [[even after moving to New York) and their cars are bland.

I think Lincoln is doing some interesting things from a design and marketing perspective, but I think people my age still see it as an older person's car/step below the BMW, Audi and Mercedes' of the world. I'm not a car designer, so forgive me for this vague description, but those three companies have done a better job making "edgy" "cool" and high-tech cars [[or at least emphasizing that in marketing better).

All that has nothing to do with nefarious actions or politics.

[Zacha341]

Volkwagen was the real jerks trying to spin the odometer relative to their emissions fraud.... I'm surprised the caddy is so non-descript in features.... compared to even a smaller Buick. Love that Northstar roar though......

Both Mercedes and Benzo way, WAY too expensive for my pockets re. repairs. Parts somewhat hard to find too. If I go foreign I do Toyota where I can find most parts at even the likes of Autozone! LOL!

[O3H]

A Cadillac is just a trim change from another product.
Definitely not worth the price, the standards are no tighter or better

Trump is a whiner, I have little respect the guy

[Scottathew]

A Cadillac is just a trim change from another product.
Definitely not worth the price, the standards are no tighter or better

Trump is a whiner, I have little respect the guy

True.
True.
True.

Entire posts checks out.

[JBMcB]

A Cadillac is just a trim change from another product.

Hah! So what's the Chevy or Buick version of the CT6?

I think you are getting your information from 30 years ago.

[313WX]

Hah! So what's the Chevy or Buick version of the CT6?

I think you are getting your information from 30 years ago.

He's not wrong.

*Cadillac CTS and ATS = Chevrolet Camaro [[Alpha platform)

*Cadillac XTS = Chevrolet Malibu [[Epsilon Platform)

*Cadillac XT5 = GMC Acadia / Chevrolet Traverse [[Crossover platform)

*Cadillac Escalade = GMC Yukon / Chevrolet Suburban [[T1XX platform)

And the CT6 is a very poor example to counter his statement, given it's the *only* Cadillac model built on GM's platform that's only for Cadillac [[and thus, it's an exception to the rule).

[Honky Tonk]

He's not wrong.

*Cadillac CTS and ATS = Chevrolet Camaro [[Alpha platform)

*Cadillac XTS = Chevrolet Malibu [[Epsilon Platform)

*Cadillac XT5 = GMC Acadia / Chevrolet Traverse [[Crossover platform)

*Cadillac Escalade = GMC Yukon / Chevrolet Suburban [[T1XX platform)

And the CT6 is a very poor example to counter his statement, given it's the *only* Cadillac model built on GM's platform that's only for Cadillac [[and thus, it's an exception to the rule).

You mean like Toyota and Lexus, Honda and Acura, or Volkswagen and Audi?

[Zacha341]

^^^ Toyota and Lexus for sure as expressed in for example the Camry XLE [[the highest end of the Camry luxury class) edition which is actually on some levels the 'not so rich' cousin to the standard Lexus.

But here we're talking about fairly good quality and durability of both -- not a deficit issue ala the similarities. But the price is a problem considering how much more the Lexus automobile costs!

[renf]

Doesn't Mercedes own a very large plant in Detroit and Redford Township making large engines for trucks? Why does our president want them to shut that plant?

[Richard]

On his recent visit to Europe, the President famously whined that Mercedes-Benz, BMW, and Audi had unfairly sold too many luxury cars in the U.S., and that he would do something about it.

Now, I recognize that he was mostly fluffing his white-working-class base by confirming their prejudice that any setback for U.S. automakers must be the result of someone else cheating, but let's take his remarks at face value for the moment.

How many here agree that the Germans cleaned the clocks of Lincoln and Cadillac because of some sort of nefarious actions versus the idea that Lincoln and Cadillac just missed a fundamental shift in the market, aided by the crappy quality that was endemic in American cars in the 70s?

Thats because all of the "whiny" liberals wanted to drive a pick up truck that was cloned with a luxury car that you cannot even carry a 4x8 sheet of plywood in the back and pay $70,000 for the privilege of not being able to do it.

Then the whiny liberals cried so much because they could not afford to purchase a Mercedes or BMW that auto plants were established in the southern US to help the rest of the country from drowning to death from all of the tears.

The whiny liberals cried so much that there is really no luxury cars left presey because every car became a computer generated box epifiny that makes it hard to even identify what the heck it is even more.

Then of course even though this has been going on for years all of the sudden the whiny liberals look for reasons to pin it on Trump because in less then 6 months it is his fault that the auto industry has failed in whatever form that we can think of and we need more things to whine about and look for ways to call everybody names so everybody is well aware of our displeasure in the currant president.Because we are just no happy unless we can find or create a reason to whine even more.


Cadiliac,Mercedes,Jaguar,BMW,Lincoln all lost thier shine when they tried to appeal to the masses and offered entry level cheap trinkets that whiny liberals could park in front of thier $300,000 starter house that they bought while makeing $15 per hour because it was thier right.

As soon as they built those plants in the south the writing was on the wall,they were going mainstream.

They used to be cars that people wanted to own but few could which kinda kept them special.

I do like my 19 year old Jaguar that was built by Ford it is one of the most reliable cars I have ever owned.

Who cares what he said about it,the Germans bought or built the plants and steal mills to supply them on US soil years ago so no need to even try fluffing his white working class voters or try to turn it into a dividing rant.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Thats because all of the "whiny" liberals wanted to drive a pick up truck that was cloned with a luxury car that you cannot even carry a 4x8 sheet of plywood in the back and pay $70,000 for the privilege of not being able to do it.

Then the whiny liberals cried so much because they could not afford to purchase a Mercedes or BMW that auto plants were established in the southern US to help the rest of the country from drowning to death from all of the tears.

The whiny liberals cried so much that there is really no luxury cars left presey because every car became a computer generated box epifiny that makes it hard to even identify what the heck it is even more.

Then of course even though this has been going on for years all of the sudden the whiny liberals look for reasons to pin it on Trump because in less then 6 months it is his fault that the auto industry has failed in whatever form that we can think of and we need more things to whine about and look for ways to call everybody names so everybody is well aware of our displeasure in the currant president.Because we are just no happy unless we can find or create a reason to whine even more.


Cadiliac,Mercedes,Jaguar,BMW,Lincoln all lost thier shine when they tried to appeal to the masses and offered entry level cheap trinkets that whiny liberals could park in front of thier $300,000 starter house that they bought while makeing $15 per hour because it was thier right.

As soon as they built those plants in the south the writing was on the wall,they were going mainstream.

They used to be cars that people wanted to own but few could which kinda kept them special.

I do like my 19 year old Jaguar that was built by Ford it is one of the most reliable cars I have ever owned.

Who cares what he said about it,the Germans bought or built the plants and steal mills to supply them on US soil years ago so no need to even try fluffing his white working class voters or try to turn it into a dividing rant.

What's up with all the "Whiney Liberal" remarks? Is that really necessary to get your point across? I swear, liberals is fast becoming the most over used word in the dictionary, and half the people that use it, probably don't know the true definition. The OP, just stated how Trump, always plays the blame game, he's never wrong, and would never admit it, if he were. No need to make a thread about autos political, regardless where your political beliefs and loyalties lie, and other's views that don't line up with yours. Auto companies miscalculate the market, and make questionable decisions all the time, foreign or domestic, and people still buy cars.

[Zacha341]

Now, you just stop that Richard!

Next you'll be saying all liberals drove Volvos back then! Back in my college days I knew to stay away from European cars. Too hard and expensive to maintain!

But there was nothing like at least test driving a VW. What a unique sounding engine. Hah!!

Then the whiny liberals cried so much because they could not afford to purchase a Mercedes or BMW that auto plants were established in the southern US to help the rest of the country from drowning to death from all of the tears.

The whiny liberals cried so much that there is really no luxury cars left presey because every car became a computer generated box epifiny that makes it hard to even identify what the heck it is even more.

[Richard]

Now, you just stop that Richard!

Next you'll be saying all liberals drove Volvos back then! Back in my college days I knew to stay away from European cars. Too hard and expensive to maintain!

But their was noting like at least test driving a VW. What a unique sounding engine. Hah!!

I was being sarcastic,I had a 1989 Volvo turbo station wagon that you could put the back seats down and slide a 4x8 in the back,4 cyl,4 speed with overdrive.

For a 4500 pound car it would fly and get close to 40 mpg and nobody would pay you any mind because it was a station wagon.But the previous owner paid $68,000 for it in 1989.

I had a friend that had a Volvo specialist shop,when they were considered yuppie cars,he would get $1800 for a brake job and order the factory parts out of California for about $300.You have to change everything and cannot just hang new pads.

Most European cars are based on exact tolerances,other then that they are the same as US,they need fuel and spark.

Where their parts become expensive is sometimes times they would try something one year then change it the next,I have a 1976 450SEL convertible that two rubber bushings in the rear suspension are over $500 because they only made them for that car for that year.

I had a 1968 Benz and a 66 MGB,both cars came from the factory with 4 wheel disk brakes,two totally different ends of the spectrum but yet at the time way ahead of the US manufacturers.

The US has always mastered the compatibility aspect though on parts interchangeably so cheaper to maintain.

Funny,I drive a 1997 Jaguar xj6 now,it was built during the Ford years of ownership,best thing that ever happened to the car,people are getting over 350,000 miles on them.A fuel injector from Jaguar is $260 but it is the exact same injector that the Mercury mariner used that is $130.

The vintage Mercedes that I had used a early style a/c compressor that was common on Fords,and Eletricial parts that were the same as VW so they are cheap enough to fix,you just have to figure out how not to pay for the name.

[Zacha341]

---- I was just joshing you. Your explanation of why European cars are so expensive to repair sounds right. I'd heard of people having to replace their entire brakes [[rotor, calipers, and pads) no matter what, and thought they were just getting totally ripped off...

The inability to simply [[and more affordably) 'hang' just the pads as you said... What a pain! I've had rotors and or pads changed without touching the calipers on most of my cars [[Toyota's, Fords, Honda's).

And parts interchangeably from year to year is an advantage!

I was being sarcastic,I had a 1989 Volvo turbo station wagon that you could put the back seats down and slide a 4x8 in the back,4 cyl,4 speed with overdrive.

Most European cars are based on exact tolerances,other then that they are the same as US,they need fuel and spark.

Where their parts become expensive is sometimes times they would try something one year then change it the next,I have a 1976 450SEL convertible that two rubber bushings in the rear suspension are over $500 because they only made them for that car for that year.

[K-slice]

Ignoring the idiotic, nonsensical, rant riddled with misspellings above...

If I were to buy a new car tomorrow, there would basically be only one car I would buy; the Buick Regal GS. If i were to stumble into a large inheritance there are only two cars I would consider; a Cadillac CTS-V, or the new Continental.

That being said, I feel the German and Japanese luxury car brands have done themselves a disservice by having so many models and variations of models. Case in point, BMW has 6 "series" of cars right now, each with at least two variants, not including their X SUVs and Z roadsters. Any marketer will tell you when you have that many models, with such little variation it hinders customer division making.

Lincoln and cadillac [[and Buick) have done a great job at reinventing themselves without trying to appeal to every niche market available in the upper classes of automobiles.

Do I think they're cheating? No. They just came into favor when Lincoln thought Americans were still buying two ton boats-on-wheels with opera windows, and Caddy thought a Cavalier with a Cadillac logo was good enough. I have a feeling the Germans and Japanese are over extended with their models now though, and we all know what happened to GM when they had the longest lineup in the industry.

[Richard]

Ignoring the idiotic, nonsensical, rant riddled with misspellings above...

If I were to buy a new car tomorrow, there would basically be only one car I would buy; the Buick Regal GS. If i were to stumble into a large inheritance there are only two cars I would consider; a Cadillac CTS-V, or the new Continental.

That being said, I feel the German and Japanese luxury car brands have done themselves a disservice by having so many models and variations of models. Case in point, BMW has 6 "series" of cars right now, each with at least two variants, not including their X SUVs and Z roadsters. Any marketer will tell you when you have that many models, with such little variation it hinders customer division making.

Lincoln and cadillac [[and Buick) have done a great job at reinventing themselves without trying to appeal to every niche market available in the upper classes of automobiles.

Do I think they're cheating? No. They just came into favor when Lincoln thought Americans were still buying two ton boats-on-wheels with opera windows, and Caddy thought a Cavalier with a Cadillac logo was good enough. I have a feeling the Germans and Japanese are over extended with their models now though, and we all know what happened to GM when they had the longest lineup in the industry.

I always wondered why some feel it is necessary comment on spelling,is it thier way of trying to sound superior over everybody else or is it that they are unable comprehend the message so they lash out to make themselves feel better? Serious question.

I agree with the rest of your post that I read for content and to get the message without thinking that it was written in order to pay the bills,even after the first sentance said,why waste the time?

The Gran marquees [[if I spelled it wrong TS) was the last rear wheel drive comfortable riding car that most Old folks switched to after Cadillac,who had given up at that point.They lost that base.

The Cimarron Caddliac and the 8-6-4 debacial turned a lot off also,they all knew what was happening back in the 80s and laid the red carpet out.

I guess complacency has its price.

Because I am such a nice guy I left a misspelled word in there,hopefully it will make somebody's day all that much better.

[JBMcB]

I'm not sure exactly how the German car companies are structured, but the Japanese companies are organized into groups called zaibatsus. These are large conglomerates, similar to large internationals like United Technologies or Siemens, but even wider in scope. They usually comprise a couple of automotive divisions, steel, electronics, home products, and a bank. That last one is key, as the central bank can dump cheap money into the banking arm if one of these conglomerates is failing for some reason or another.

This would be more of an unfair advantage than anything. Remember all the hand wringing and shaming when two of the big three asked for a bailout? Nissan doesn't even need to pick up a phone - once their banking wing starts running lean on cash they get an automatic infusion from the central bank.

[Richard]

I'm not sure exactly how the German car companies are structured, but the Japanese companies are organized into groups called zaibatsus. These are large conglomerates, similar to large internationals like United Technologies or Siemens, but even wider in scope. They usually comprise a couple of automotive divisions, steel, electronics, home products, and a bank. That last one is key, as the central bank can dump cheap money into the banking arm if one of these conglomerates is failing for some reason or another.

This would be more of an unfair advantage than anything. Remember all the hand wringing and shaming when two of the big three asked for a bailout? Nissan doesn't even need to pick up a phone - once their banking wing starts running lean on cash they get an automatic infusion from the central bank.

That is how it should have been explained.

BMW group
Mini Cooper,Rolls Royce,Bentley and the Volkswagen group.

Volkswagen group,Audi,Porsche,Scania,Skota,Lamborghini,Ducati .

Land Rover sold but they had it for awhile.

Everything from Two wheels up to large over the road trucks.

They are family owned and not really disclosed as to banking ties but they pretty much move Europe,and can easily absorb the billions that the emissions scandel cost.

When you have that much power you pretty much control the banks.

In the south here they have the steel mills and the factory's without the legacy costs of the US 2.5 so they could in this country undercut them to the point of non existence without batting an eye.

They said at the time they were not worried about the penalty as Volkswagen with all of its might was only a small percentage of thier revenue stream,which says they are into a lot more then they are disclosing.

I think thier presence in the US was only about 20% or less of total investments.

The US steel industry was crushed by a number of reasons but mostly by the dumping of foreign steel which is the whole concept,drive costs down to eliminate the competition.

BMW could take Fiat which actually paid little or nothing for Chrysler and own Chrysler easy enough,Ford and GM I do not believe would stand a chance in thier currant form.

Maybe that is why Ford is makeing the moves now that they are.

What you posted is kinda really about what this is all about combined with trade deals made in the past that may have generated quick cash and results at the time long term are dangerous to this country.

But some prefer to take the blind hate instead of really understanding what things are about try and turn it into a political mess,which is exactly why we are in this mess in the first place.

Here is thier 2016 annual report. Volkswagen group alone over 10,000,000 beating GM at 9.97

https://www.bmwgroup.com/content/dam...anzbericht.pdf

[noise]

I always wondered why some feel it is necessary comment on spelling,is it thier way of trying to sound superior over everybody else or is it that they are unable comprehend the message so they lash out to make themselves feel better? Serious question.

I'm not one to comment on another person's spelling or grammar, but since you asked the question I feel compelled to provide my thoughts. I typically write off these posts as ignorant or misinformed. If the poster doesn't have the self-respect to concern themselves with acceptable writing, why should I respect what the poster is trying to convey?

[Richard]

I'm not one to comment on another person's spelling or grammar, but since you asked the question I feel compelled to provide my thoughts. I typically write off these posts as ignorant or misinformed. If the poster doesn't have the self-respect to concern themselves with acceptable writing, why should I respect what the poster is trying to convey?

Why make life more complicated then it already is,if you do not like my spelling,formatting,what I say etc. when you see my post skip over it or ingnore it,but do not even think about explaining how to turn auto fill off because that is not your job,your job is only to try an impress me with superiority.

That is the difference,I have always paid my way in life and do not feel the need to impress anybody,unless they are paying my bills or sleeping with me.

You think my spelling is bad if you saw my math you would probably explode.

I am saying you but not meaning you directly,I have to convey that thought because some can read a post and understand the context of it without being blinded by the OCD of a misspelled word and some cannat.

[Richard]

When one includes...

The president famously whined

I recognize that he was mostly fluffing his white-working-class base

You know what a fluffer is?

It was a good post that did not require the jab to get the point across.

No different then all of the name calling and spellcheck.

Auto companies miscalculate all the time I agree.

The scenario is this.

BMW/Volkswagen ships arrive at the port tomorrow with $20,000 electric cars,maybe sell those cars and take a multi billion dollar hit and not blink an eye,we already know that.

That would pretty much crush US auto manufacturers investments in the electric car world of things.

The ramifications would be felt across the country.

I guess it boils down to if we should keep helping the US auto makers and thier supply chain and all of those employees involved.

Or at the very least create a fair playing field on thier soil and if they fail so be it but really no point in cutting thier legs off in support of foreign firms and insure thier demise.

Or maybe it is better that the president does not do what he was elected to do and let the economy crash in a repeat of the 1930s and let things take its course under the rule of another country.

I am not bothered in the least if people do not care about my views or opinions and everybody is entitled to thiers.

It has just become popular when one disagrees with somebody it becomes a name calling,spell check school play yard.So if one feels the need to start a thread out controversial then they better be able to take what they are dishing out and not expect life to be a one way street.

[canuck]

I ain't ne'er seen no liberal drivin' no pickup any old how anyways. Only real men drive pickups as far as I is concerned. There.

[EGrant]

I ain't ne'er seen no liberal drivin' no pickup any old how anyways. Only real men drive pickups as far as I is concerned. There.

Or a Jeep Wrangler, to traverse the rocky terrain of Sterling Heights

[Richard]

I ain't ne'er seen no liberal drivin' no pickup any old how anyways. Only real men drive pickups as far as I is concerned. There.

Lol or in Fl where everybody has to have 4x4 but 99% never use it,the Jeep Wrangler seems to be the newest fad,all tricked out for 4 wheeling but scared to actually go because the paint might get scratched. To each there own I guess.

Thing is the smaller business guy starting out gets a used truck to get by,1500 series does not hold up so it is a 2500 series.

Buisness starts getting better so it is time to treat one to a nicer truck and customers do judge professionalism by the truck you show up in.

You want a basic truck because the more options there are the more things are apt to break and when things break under warranty you lose work and money.

My friend that does hauling has a 2 year old F250,one of his workers jammed the trailer plug in wrong,which is almost impossible to do,it blew the turn signal fuse.Simple enough replace the fuse.

That truck has 6 different fuse panels with fuses related to the turn signals.So much for the KISS theory.

Auto companies build for the demand,in Fords case they sell the most trucks and most are luxury trucks equal to a Cadillac but thier car sales lack.

Fourtanaly for the small business guy Nissan has the answer with the Titian V8 and useing the Utility code when ordering they provide a basic,tough truck with power and a basic no frills package.

In the south and with the self employed they are gaining ground fast and are replacing Ford and GM and that says a lot because usually they were die hard Ford or GM fans.

I see a lot here driving the King ranch at $70,000 that never sees so much as a bag of mulch thrown in the bed,that is were the luxury car market evolved into the luxury truck market.

Doctors,lawyers,etc. That used to drive Mercedes,BMW,Jaguar,and Caddliac now drive pickup trucks.

Us old folk that used to buy the Cadillacs because of the softer ride on the bones when hitting the potholes now get to choose between some econo box that lets you know when you drive over a small stick in the road or an import luxury car even though now built in the US they still like to support the big Three as American companies,but the big three kinda threw them by the wayside,giving them not much choice but to buy the larger BMW or Mercedes.

There used to be a guy in Iowa,every year he would order 2000 Trucks from Ford,basic no frills fleet trucks,but now the companies changed the upgrade packages so much your kinda stuck.