Robots will kill the unions

[ABetterDetroit]

Your knowledge of Canada overwhelms [[yes, that was sarcastic)

Aside from the fact Canada is the most right-wing leaning nation in the developed world outside of the United States.....and maybe Japan.....

Canada's oil industry represents a whopping 3% of our total GDP.

Perhaps you might care to read up on things you don't understand before blathering on making a fool of yourself.

****

Canada's total taxation revenue as a % of GDP is well below global norms.

Its also only modestly higher than the U.S.

We just have different spending priorities............

You have to be careful when dealing with the far right here in 'Merica Visiter. They tend to have everyone classified and it appears you fell into the socialist basket which is at least better than the Commie bastards basket. Sooner or later thay get around to the 'kill them all' conversations about those folks.

Needless to say the extreme right takes what they want from our society then declare that everything else is unnessary and they won't pay for anything else with their taxes if the pay taxes at all. Not a very considerate group of people.

[Jimaz]

...Next up on the [automation] chopping block? Engineers and programmers.

Yes, although, as I've mentioned before, programmers have always automated their own jobs wherever possible. It's mostly because they don't want to deal with all that petty bit-twiddling that machines do so well instead.

Ultimately, to cut the programmer out of the loop will require the machine to read the mind of the end-user.

That's never going to happen. It's related to Gödel's incompleteness theorems.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

I'd like to see a robot go into a Ford dealership and purchase a F-150. If that happens, I know we're in trouble.

[O3H]

Let's face it , the days of folks making $30 an hour
with almost constant overtime are gone.

The grueling backbreaking jobs are mostly gone and quality has improved.

Getting corporations to pay their fair of taxes,
from the profits of increased automation will become paramount

[Shai_Hulud]

Canadian Visitor: Spoken like a true Canadian Visitor.

Your suggestions are right in line with our own Bernie Sanders. On the slippery slope to Socialism.

You appear to be cognizant of the astronomical costs of implementing the changes you propose and your solution -- surprise, surprise....is more taxation.

Tax and spend. Where has that worked for long?

Canada is a great country in so many ways. But, thank God for the abundance of oil in your western provinces or it would be broke like so many other Socialist-leaning countries.

I think I missed your proposed solution.

[3WC]

Canadian Visitor: My response won't be nearly as rude as your comments, but you're the one who should try to understand your own economy.

I'm pretty familiar with the oil industry. According to 2017 Statistics Canada the mining/oil/gas extraction business [[most Canadian oil production in Western Canada is mined, tar sands you know) it is currently 8.2% of Canadian GDP, slightly behind manufacturing and all categories of real estate; it's the third largest economic segment, currently. Of course, with oil prices so low the past few years that segment has dropped from its first place ranking over the years.

You say that Canadian taxes are only "slightly" higher than in the U.S. That's nothing to brag about as U.S. is one of the most overtaxed nations in the world. What's that make Canada? We are non-competitive in the world economy. What do you think has Americans so outraged they elected a guy like Trump? They crave tax reform, among many other grievances.

I notice you don't talk about our respective health systems. [[Our is lousy and your is much worse.) I have three doctor friends who are highly skilled specialists in their fields. They tell me that 20-30% of their patients are Canadians. Those are people who have the money, can pay cash, and don't want to die while waiting to see a good doctor.

Stay well, my friend.

I didn't know you were waiting for my proposed "solution" Shai. I thought it was self evident.

Elect somebody like Trump to make Canada great again.

[Canadian Visitor]

Canadian Visitor: My response won't be nearly as rude as your comments, but you're the one who should try to understand your own economy.

I'm pretty familiar with the oil industry. According to 2017 Statistics Canada the mining/oil/gas extraction business [[most Canadian oil production in Western Canada is mined, tar sands you know) it is currently 8.2% of Canadian GDP, slightly behind manufacturing and all categories of real estate; it's the third largest economic segment, currently. Of course, with oil prices so low the past few years that segment has dropped from its first place ranking over the years.

You say that Canadian taxes are only "slightly" higher than in the U.S. That's nothing to brag about as U.S. is one of the most overtaxed nations in the world. What's that make Canada? We are non-competitive in the world economy. What do you think has Americans so outraged they elected a guy like Trump? They crave tax reform, among many other grievances.

I notice you don't talk about our respective health systems. [[Our is lousy and your is much worse.) I have three doctor friends who are highly skilled specialists in their fields. They tell me that 20-30% of their patients are Canadians. Those are people who have the money, can pay cash, and don't want to die while waiting to see a good doctor.

Stay well, my friend.

I didn't know you were waiting for my proposed "solution" Shai. I thought it was self evident.

Elect somebody like Trump to make Canada great again.

Again, I found your post highly offensive and insulting, largely because it was fundamentally inaccurate.

You choose to make flippant statements w/o an intellectually sound foundation.

You've done it again, btw.

***

Your statement as to the relative place of resource extraction, collectively is correct. However, you said 'oil' previously.

Oil [[including bitumen) would represent around 3%, mining, in Canada in includes a host ores/metals and diamonds. Gas, shockingly, is also not oil.

The point of my rebuttal was to suggest that your implication that the Canadian economy is resting on a foundation of western oil is utter nonsense, which it is.

Period. Full stop.

I hasten to add that we also produce oil on the Atlantic coast, but that's entirely a tangent.

***

As to healthcare, I can cite plenty of objective evidence on our 'systems' [[it isn't just one, as each province has a its own system, though they all follow the single-payer principle).

Indeed, it is far from perfect, but utterly laughable that its worse than the U.S. system. Longer life expediencies, lower infant mortality and better cancer survival at the 5yr mark all suggest otherwise.

[[perhaps you might start your research here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compar..._United_States )

Are waits too long for some services? Sure Could the system sometimes use more of the 'frills' that higher-end US hospitals/practises may provide. No doubt.

But, on balance its pretty darn good.

Here, I'll give you a true story. An older man, a senior, goes to his doctor due to back pain. Diagnositics are ordered, including gastroscopy and a CT Scan, which take place within 4 weeks.

Unfortunately, he has stage 4 cancer.

He's quickly admitted the hospital, where notwithstanding the terminal diagnosis, he is given emergency surgery to remove a tumour against his spine.

He is then transferred to an acute care hospital, for rehab, and treatment, where he gets a semi-private room.

After several weeks, due to worsening cancer, unable to go home, he's transferred to palliative care, a beautiful facility w/grey-tone hardwood floors, large windows overlooking a ravine, with big screen tv and many other nice bells and whistles.

Total bill for doctor and hospital services $0

Total copayments $0

Total deductibles $0

Cost, TV and phone - $86 per month

The idea that there are loads of people dying on waiting lists here is utter BS.

There are plenty of folks in discomfort on waiting lists, particularly for non-urgent procedures.

Those lists could be shorter.

There are some folks who die on waiting lists, even when they're short, that happens in the US too.

Of course they're are people who cross the border for healthcare in a border area.

First, its possible. Second, your comparing services available in Detroit to Windsor. Windsor being much smaller, similar services might only be found in Hamilton, London or Toronto in Ontario. Some people will think a 20m drive, beats a 4 hour one.

And, of course, there are those, who given a chance will spend their $ to get an MRI a week sooner.

That is not a useful read for the entire system.

Which is not to say our system doesn't need work; it does. But that's a whole separate thread.

***

None of this is what this thread was about.

What it was about, was how to deal w/the impacts of automation.

Your need to spout off in an ill-informed manner about taxation levels [[your wrong); healthcare [[your wrong) and the Canadian economy [[your wrong) has to led to a distraction from the OP's point, and my original response.

I'll refrain from correcting you further as you show no signs of an open mind or an inclination to do research, so I'm sure I'd be wasting my time.

[O3H]

Awww is someones robot sick ?
Maybe they need a hot oil toddy and some downtime.

And thats the great thing about robots, no real downtime !!!!
They run without food, no bathrooms, no stewards, and no office politics.

[3WC]

Well Can Visitor, when you're [[notice, not "your" - check the grammar in your posts) through arguing about the various types of petroleum [[oil, gas, nat gas liquids, oil shale, shale oil etc, all referred to by those in the business as "oil") you can argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Wow, you are easily moved into hysterics, when that was not my intention.

Nobody is attacking Canada, as you seem to apply. You apparently go out of your way to discern conflict when none is intended.

The relative merits and deficiencies of the U.S. and Canadian health care systems are pretty well known to most people with an interest in the matter. I have never known anyone in the U.S. who would want to exist under the Canadian single payer system yet of the several people from Canada whom I have worked or interacted with, I believe they would all like to live under our system.

You presented a rambling anecdotal report of a Canadian patient who apparently received excellent medical care; you said the cost of that medical treatment was "zero" dollars. Let me explain something to you. Those services were delivered by doctors, nurses and other medical professionals. He was treated in a hospital. Don't you understand that all those professionals get paid and hospitals don't operate on good wishes. The treatment your guy received was presumably very expensive. It was not "zero." The fact that patient didn't have to pay anything [[if that was the case) didn't mean the tooth fairy treated him for free.

Your comment that a lot of people come to the U.S. for medical treatment because they are from Windsor and they do so for convenience is specious and, actually, ludicrous. Canadians come from all over to obtain U.S. medical treatment. The best medical center in the country is the Texas Medical Center in Houston, 44 hospitals and clinics, 6000 beds, 4 medical schools etc; it used to publish the countries of residence of their patients from around the world [[over 10,000 a year the last time I checked, which was awhile ago), a large percentage were from Canada.

Canada is a pretty good country, a great place to visit, as I do frequently, but I wouldn't want to live there.

I do have an open mind, by the way, but it's not empty. Not that I'm saying yours is, but chill out or it will appear to be.

[K-slice]

The big question is; how long before the government is forced to give an allowance to a citizen based on nothing more than their existence, or there is a peasant revolt as owners grow wealthier and wealthier with fewer and fewer workers.

It's begun already. The lagging employment numbers aren't because so many people now are lazy. It's because their choices are a menial job that wont pay the bills, or government assistance. In the old days these people would work on the line, dig ditches, or be gladiators for Caesar because those were the best options available. Today the best option is to sit on government assistance for as long as possible. And being that I don't see us going back to the human dominated assembly line any time soon, let alone the Colosseum, allowance it will be!

[Jimaz]

The big question is; how long before the government is forced to give an allowance to a citizen based on nothing more than their existence, or there is a peasant revolt as owners grow wealthier and wealthier with fewer and fewer workers.

It's begun already. The lagging employment numbers aren't because so many people now are lazy. It's because their choices are a menial job that wont pay the bills, or government assistance. In the old days these people would work on the line, dig ditches, or be gladiators for Caesar because those were the best options available. Today the best option is to sit on government assistance for as long as possible. And being that I don't see us going back to the human dominated assembly line any time soon, let alone the Colosseum, allowance it will be!

It seems you're referring to Basic income.

[casscorridor]

It seems you're referring to Basic income.

*Universal* Basic Income [[it eventually has to be universal to be fully effective). It's an idea who's time has come, and is quickly gaining popularity across the political spectrum. Remember that Richard Nixon proposed it but was shot down. Now Finland is having a trial and even Ontario.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ontario-summer

[O3H]

It is a robotics thread knuckleheads

[Bigb23]

Retirement ages also need to climb to keep pensions viable.

Finally, something where I have in the dog fight. I was one of the first, [[and a team), to do a Cincinnati Milacron Tc3 robotic arm interface with a 5000 watt laser in the early 80's.
I lost my job so many times during the late 90's that I just gave up. Now, Trump care will cut everything by 50% for the rich to have a tax free zone.

Thanks, America for nothing.

[Lowell]

*Universal* Basic Income [[it eventually has to be universal to be fully effective). It's an idea who's time has come, and is quickly gaining popularity across the political spectrum. Remember that Richard Nixon proposed it but was shot down. Now Finland is having a trial and even Ontario.

People are increasingly obsolete as instruments of production and business -- kind of like what happened to horses when trains and cars came along. This is accelerating.


For that reason, I support the idea of universal basic income [I would use sustenance instead] after having followed the robotic and artificial intelligence revolutions closely.


Not Cadillacs and snowmobiles for everybody, just a guaranteed minimum of basic foods, health care, shelter, education and security. Many facets of that already exist.


I think there needs to be a contribution mechanism, both for those who want a sense of having earned their share and for those who the production system will still need, so they don't feel like they are working while everybody else isn't. National services? Elder and disabled care?


I don’t have that answer yet. I just know we will have an ever-increasing number or horses, even some jackasses, and we can’t just send them to the glue factory.

[3WC]

For those of you who suggest that a Basic Income policy is desirable/feasible, I suggest reinstituting the Civilian Conservation Corp. Every able bodied person should have to contribute labor, time or something else of value in order to be entitled to other people's money.

If we have such a policy - Basic Income -, this country will be doomed a lot sooner than it will be without such a policy. [[We are doomed now but most people don't realize it as it's taking time to really be in the toilet.

The country was built on incentives. Take those away, and Basic Income surely will be the death of the country.

Automation: There's a restaurant in the old Detroit News Building, occupied mostly by Quicken employees apparently. There are no waiter or waitresses in the restaurant. Patrons stop at a kiosk, punch in their food and beverages choices on a computer screen, pay with a credit card, receive a receipt and a number. When your number is called you go up the a counter and pick up your food, then sit at community tables. When done, buss your table and go back to work. The place was packed for over an hour with a constant stream of customers.

This type of automation gets implemented every time there's talk of a $15/hour minimum wage. More and more fast food joints are implementing such automated processes.

The people who rage and rampage over such economic policies as a minimum wage are financially, functionally illiterate; they have no concept about economics or the nature of running a profitable business. They don't damage businesses necessarily, they damage workers. They think money grows on trees or that the "rich" will continue to support such schemes as if they don't have the skills to avoid going broke as a result of them. The "rich" are smarter than many of you seem to think.

[Wesley Mouch]

...snip...
The people who rage and rampage over such economic policies as a minimum wage are financially, functionally illiterate; they have no concept about economics or the nature of running a profitable business. They don't damage businesses necessarily, they damage workers. They think money grows on trees or that the "rich" will continue to support such schemes as if they don't have the skills to avoid going broke as a result of them. The "rich" are smarter than many of you seem to think.

Great post.

3WC understands something many don't. Yes, the rich are smarter than you think. But the poor are also much smarter too. That's the real lesson. All the bright ideas turned into laws to manage the labor market just destroy people, and destroy their ability to improve themselves and their families.

[Bigb23]

I'd like to see a robot go into a Ford dealership and purchase a F-150. If that happens, I know we're in trouble.

Thank you - Henry Ford [[ROIG)

[1953]

I am planning a colony where technology is frozen in 1989. All are welcome to join.

1953

[Jimaz]

For those of you who suggest that a Basic Income policy is desirable/feasible, I suggest reinstituting the Civilian Conservation Corp....

Is there some fundamental reason why those CCC jobs can't themselves be ultimately displaced by robots?

[Lowell]

Spoons instead of shovels? A favorite anecdote of mine but gets to the nub of the issue...

Nobel Prize winning economist Milton Friedman recalled traveling to an Asian country in the 1960s and visiting a worksite where a new canal was being built.

He was shocked to see that, instead of modern tractors and earth movers, the workers had shovels.

He asked why there were so few machines. The government bureaucrat explained: “You don’t understand. This is a jobs program.”

Milton replied: “If it’s jobs you want, then you should give these workers spoons, not shovels.”

[Shai_Hulud]

Milton replied: “If it’s jobs you want, then you should give these workers spoons, not shovels.”

Exactly, if you're paying people to cut lawns with scissors you're still giving money away.

[O3H]

Bye bye Unions - you're not needed in manufacturing anymore for USA

[Danny]

Today robots tomorrow artificial intelligence, next week self aware robots, the future; humans extinct, robots and machines ruled the Earth.

THE END.

[emu steve]

Canadian Visitor: My response won't be nearly as rude as your comments, but you're the one who should try to understand your own economy.

I'm pretty familiar with the oil industry. According to 2017 Statistics Canada the mining/oil/gas extraction business [[most Canadian oil production in Western Canada is mined, tar sands you know) it is currently 8.2% of Canadian GDP, slightly behind manufacturing and all categories of real estate; it's the third largest economic segment, currently. Of course, with oil prices so low the past few years that segment has dropped from its first place ranking over the years.

You say that Canadian taxes are only "slightly" higher than in the U.S. That's nothing to brag about as U.S. is one of the most overtaxed nations in the world. What's that make Canada? We are non-competitive in the world economy. What do you think has Americans so outraged they elected a guy like Trump? They crave tax reform, among many other grievances.

I notice you don't talk about our respective health systems. [[Our is lousy and your is much worse.) I have three doctor friends who are highly skilled specialists in their fields. They tell me that 20-30% of their patients are Canadians. Those are people who have the money, can pay cash, and don't want to die while waiting to see a good doctor.

Stay well, my friend.

I didn't know you were waiting for my proposed "solution" Shai. I thought it was self evident.

Elect somebody like Trump to make Canada great again.

I don't consider U.S. overtaxed unless one assumes that even $1 of taxes are too much.

We've all 'seen' Mitt Romney's taxes and his tax bill was almost laughable.

Trump's tax bill, whatever it might be, most likely is a pittance.

On the other end of the scale, those making low wages pay little or no federal income taxes.

And tax rates are a pittance compared to what they were 50 years ago when the economy was roaring off the charts [[ah, the late 60s).

If we want to have a real debate about the U.S. and Canada it might be over climate, not taxes, health care, etc.

I've always found Detroit a 'cold weather city' yet it is balmy compared to significant parts of Canada.

When I see Canadians in Vegas, California, etc. it isn't for health care but to escape the Canadian winters.