QLine going public

[emu steve]

I'd much rather see more lines added in the greater downtown area before extending to Pontiac. Hopefully both can happen eventually, but I'm more interested in seeing Detroit become a city where it's considered easy to get by without a car like other major cities.

I'll toss out an idea I haven't seen discussed here before:

IF QLine is expanded, I'd like to see another line, QLine2, which bisects it [[hope that is the word) and runs from beyond Belle Island [[on E. Jefferson) through Woodward and continue along Michigan Ave. westward for say another 3 miles.

My thought being is that it would strengthen E. Jefferson and also boost Michigan Ave. which has unrealized potential.

The E. Jefferson leg would be a no-brainer. It should be a real shot in the arm for that part of the city.

QLine because it will not be fast like a subway system, is best for those who wish to travel up to 3 miles en lieu of driving/parking. It is essentially for convenience and cost [[cheaper to pay the QLine fare than pay downtown parking).

[ct_alum]

Belle Island????

I'll ride it just to hear Carmen Harlan's voice. I miss her.

[Sandhouse]

If they haven't done so already, the City Council will shortly approve a lengthy ordinance drafted by the Q Line's lawyers. It governs fare payment, conduct aboard the cars, and among other things, outlaws bicycle use of "the tracks" and requires cyclists and auto drivers to get out of the way of the streetcar upon a honk from its operator. Violation of the ordinance is a misdemeanor, with a $500 fine or 90 days. Enforcement can be by any security personnel designated by the Chief of Police.

I don't believe any of this conforms to the state Vehicle Code or the laws governing traffic violations [[which are civil offenses with fines strictly limited).

A private police force empowered to issue $500 tickets based on a vague ordinance -- why do I have a bad feeling about this?

The ordinance also prohibits pushing shopping carts aboard the streetcar, probably to discourage the homeless. Free advice: if you want to bring more stuff home from Whole Foods than you can carry, use a wheeled suitcase instead of your folding shopping cart.

[clubboss]

If they haven't done so already, the City Council will shortly approve a lengthy ordinance drafted by the Q Line's lawyers. It governs fare payment, conduct aboard the cars, and among other things, outlaws bicycle use of "the tracks" and requires cyclists and auto drivers to get out of the way of the streetcar upon a honk from its operator. Violation of the ordinance is a misdemeanor, with a $500 fine or 90 days. Enforcement can be by any security personnel designated by the Chief of Police.

I don't believe any of this conforms to the state Vehicle Code or the laws governing traffic violations [[which are civil offenses with fines strictly limited).

A private police force empowered to issue $500 tickets based on a vague ordinance -- why do I have a bad feeling about this?

The ordinance also prohibits pushing shopping carts aboard the streetcar, probably to discourage the homeless. Free advice: if you want to bring more stuff home from Whole Foods than you can carry, use a wheeled suitcase instead of your folding shopping cart.

I’ve been on trolleys when the transit police were asking for tickets or passes. I’ve seen some discretion applied when a passenger doesn’t have a ticket, they’ve been given the option of de-boarding at the next stop and purchasing a ticket – in the unlikely event they have the required fare – and being let go at that point. I have also observed no slack being cut, and the offending individual is taken off the trolley, cited, and released. Perhaps there will be a probationary period prior to any citations being issued. In San Diego, I witnessed the transit police chase an individual for several blocks – to cite, and release a rider w/ no ticket.

Define shopping cart, the little ones like I’ve shown, or, as in full-fledged – stolen – grocery store shopping cart from like Walmart or Kroger?

[detroitbob]

... the QLine will not be fast like a subway system, is best for those who wish to travel up to 3 miles en lieu of driving/parking. It is essentially for convenience and cost [[cheaper to pay the QLine fare than pay downtown parking).

EMU Steve, upon reviewing all the many comments made during the grand opening celebration events on Friday extensions were alluded to, of course with no backup information but it is safe to say that the powers involved surely have discussed this. Detroiters have to understand the century-old motto now applies to Detroit "Make no little plans" ---Daniel Hudson Burnham, American architect and urban planners responsible for the plans that made Chicago the metropolis it is today. Streetcar extensions make sense perhaps a spur extending to Henry Ford Medical Center and its new complex, perhaps Greektown. E Jefferson makes sense as does Michigan Ave. thru what is being billed as "West Corktown".

[emu steve]

EMU Steve, upon reviewing all the many comments made during the grand opening celebration events on Friday extensions were alluded to, of course with no backup information but it is safe to say that the powers involved surely have discussed this. Detroiters have to understand the century-old motto now applies to Detroit "Make no little plans" ---Daniel Hudson Burnham, American architect and urban planners responsible for the plans that made Chicago the metropolis it is today. Streetcar extensions make sense perhaps a spur extending to Henry Ford Medical Center and its new complex, perhaps Greektown. E Jefferson makes sense as does Michigan Ave. thru what is being billed as "West Corktown".

I agree.

My thought in a nutshell: Streetcars are neat but expensive, and good for short haul trips [[say < 4 or 5 miles max) only. E. Jefferson could have stops every 0.4 or 0.5 miles.

With that in mind, all of the routes Bob and I mention are candidates for streetcar lines.

That said, don't want to go 'streetcar happy' and try to run 40 - 50 miles of streetcars. How about a max of 20 miles?

Streetcars are best in very densely populated/traffic area [[like CBD), near sports facilities, etc. I would think E. Jefferson could become densely populated.

One side note: I bet the QLine will be popular with tourists who want to see Detroit's core without driving. I bet conventioneers might be tempted to take the 6.6 mile loop and see downtown/midtown/New Center. Maybe stop at Mack and get some snacks, etc. at Whole Foods [[yummy deserts )

[Shai_Hulud]

I understand that the Amtrak station is on Baltimore, but three stops within half a mile seems like waste to me.

[Lowell]

QLine will be free for opening weekend

I notice from the below QLine is employing a "trust but verify" philosophy on tickets. I'm wondering if that is like what I encountered when I stayed in Germany. You buy a ticket but don't present it when boarding. You just get on. Inspectors randomly enter the buses/trams and require all to show their tickets. No ticket=a fine. Saves time and confusion. Worked there, wondering if it will here.

"The QLine streetcar, which begins passenger service on May 12, unveiled its fares this week.

The basic walk-up ride costs $1.50 for three hours. A day pass is $3. Up to three children under 44 inches tall may ride with a paying passenger.

A senior fare is 75 cents. A monthly pass is $30 and a yearly pass $285.

To buy a ticket, riders can use a credit or debit card only at the line's 20 stations, or pay cash-only at on-board kiosks. Payment also will eventually be available via a QLine app.

The streetcar is employing a "trust but verify" philosophy on tickets. Eventually Detroit transit police will be checking passengers to ensure they've paid, QLine officials said.

The streetcar's normal hours are 6 a.m. to 11 p.m. Monday-Thursday; 6 a.m. to midnight on Fridays; 8 a.m. to midnight on Saturdays, and from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. on Sundays."

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...pening-weekend

[clubboss]

QLine will be free for opening weekend

I notice from the below QLine is employing a "trust but verify" philosophy on tickets. I'm wondering if that is like what I encountered when I stayed in Germany. You buy a ticket but don't present it when boarding. You just get on. Inspectors randomly enter the buses/trams and require all to show their tickets. No ticket=a fine. Saves time and confusion. Worked there, wondering if it will here.

"The QLine streetcar, which begins passenger service on May 12, unveiled its fares this week.

The basic walk-up ride costs $1.50 for three hours. A day pass is $3. Up to three children under 44 inches tall may ride with a paying passenger.

A senior fare is 75 cents. A monthly pass is $30 and a yearly pass $285.

To buy a ticket, riders can use a credit or debit card only at the line's 20 stations, or pay cash-only at on-board kiosks. Payment also will eventually be available via a QLine app.

The streetcar is employing a "trust but verify" philosophy on tickets. Eventually Detroit transit police will be checking passengers to ensure they've paid, QLine officials said.

The streetcar's normal hours are 6 a.m. to 11 p.m. Monday-Thursday; 6 a.m. to midnight on Fridays; 8 a.m. to midnight on Saturdays, and from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. on Sundays."

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...pening-weekend

I’ve never heard the phrase “trust but verify”, however, as explained, it’s the same procedure used in southern California. Along those lines [[pun), who are the "inspectors", also known as, fare enforcement officers, the transit police?
In San Diego for example, riding hot [[no ticket, and not a dime in their pocket), would get you a $75.00 ordinance infraction, second time is a misdemeanor, with the fine up to $500.00.
Ticket Please...

[casscorridor]

I’ve never heard the phrase “trust but verify”, however, as explained, it’s the same procedure used in southern California. Along those lines [[pun), who are the "inspectors", also known as, fare enforcement officers, the transit police?
In San Diego for example, riding hot [[no ticket, and not a dime in their pocket), would get you a $75.00 ordinance infraction, second time is a misdemeanor, with the fine up to $500.00.
Ticket Please...

do we really need more ARMED forces in our city? I think a non-uniformed employee can issue the penalty fares just fine.

[MSUguy]

do we really need more ARMED forces in our city? I think a non-uniformed employee can issue the penalty fares just fine.

Detroit already has transit cops so I'm not sure what you're whining about.

[Danny]

YAY!!!! The People Mover 2 Just like Robocop 2. Loyal as a puppy.

[Meddle]

Eventually Detroit transit police will be checking passengers to ensure they've paid, QLine officials said.

Sorry Ma'am, we can help you with the guys that beat and robbed you, we're checking tickets on the cute lil' thing.

[pgn421]

How is somone going to pay the fine if they cant afford the fare?

[pgn421]

The people mover has even declined riders

[stasu1213]

My old boss was on the board of SEMTA at the time. He said ridership was dominated by rich lawyers from Birmingham and required huge [[even by transit standards) subsidies.

Are there pics of the Sent a railtrain the ran through the Cut?

[EastsideAl]

Oh, and I can't wait to ride on the Q Line. I've delayed my trip to NYC for a day so I can be there on opening day.

I'm hoping this is the start of something bigger [[unlike the People Mover) for transit in Detroit. And I very much agree with the poster above [[despite the weird usage of "Belle Island") about building another line on Jefferson and Michigan in the near future.

[emu steve]

Oh, and I can't wait to ride on the Q Line. I've delayed my trip to NYC for a day so I can be there on opening day.

I'm hoping this is the start of something bigger [[unlike the People Mover) for transit in Detroit. And I very much agree with the poster above [[despite the weird usage of "Belle Island") about building another line on Jefferson and Michigan in the near future.

Oops, I must be on the wrong forum.

I should have been on NewYorkYes...

http://www.privateislandsonline.com/...k/belle-island

[emu steve]

Oops, I did have a brain fart.

Everyone believes that a QL2 along E. Jefferson to Belle Isle [[actually a little further east) would be great for the neighborhoods along that route.

But few have talked what effect that line would have continuing through downtown up Michigan Ave. to say 14th or 16th.

Developers, buy your Michigan Ave. property now... Train station, anyone?

[professorscott]

Oops, I did have a brain fart.

Everyone believes that a QL2 along E. Jefferson to Belle Isle [[actually a little further east) would be great for the neighborhoods along that route.

But few have talked what effect that line would have continuing through downtown up Michigan Ave. to say 14th or 16th.

Developers, buy your Michigan Ave. property now... Train station, anyone?

I think an East Jefferson route would be easier to get started in the short term than Michigan Avenue; there is too much of a gap in Michigan Avenue between downtown and Corktown at the moment, IMVHO.

However, MVHO is not dispositive here; what it comes down to is this. Roger Penske is not, most likely, going to reprise his starring role in any new streetcar line, and John Hertel is busy running SMART and doesn't have the amount of time it would take to reboot and get a new effort started. [[I haven't talked to John but I know how busy he is; Roger just about came out publicly and said he wouldn't do this again.)

So all we need - for East Jeff, or Michigan, or, fuck it, Mound Road, wherever you like, is for somebody to come along and be the champion, and put together private philanthropic and/or developer money sufficient to convince Uncle Sugar that we are serious and can dip into the federal trough once again, minus the cost of a service facility since we already have that, plus the cost of some vehicle storage space since the one we have won't easily expand. [[Ooh - and - make sure any new tracks connect to the QLine tracks, otherwise the fact that there's already a service facility isn't of much use.)

[emu steve]

I agree that QLine could use a 'modular' legs approach.

We have the trunk [[QLine) open for business Friday.

The next 'leg' could be E. Jefferson but that could take say 8 - 10 years and someone to lead the effort.

And yes, a private/public partnership with QLine convincing DOT that streetcar in and around downtowns have very significant urban transit/renewal value.

And as the good professor indicates, whatever legs added need to be fully integrated into the 'existing' QLine... and an E. Jefferson design need integrate so that it could be extended westward on Michigan Ave.

My fantasy land prediction: in 5 - 8 years, the 'existing QLine' route will be built up. If in 8 years, empty parcels aren't developed, they probably won't.

By then, the next 'development wave' should be with QLine2 down E. Jefferson and stimulate the riverfront development.

It would be nice to see real progress on QLine2 by 2025.

While it may sound silly to compare a short haul street car system to D.C.s subway system, one point I think it relevant:

The D.C. subway system opened in 1976 with only a few stations along one [[red) line. The subway system added more lines and stations each decade since. Now it is over 100 miles and still not finished. The last line [[silver) is going to Dulles Airport and will be finished I think in a few years.

Literally, the subway system, as we know it, will be completed around 2020, or FORTY FOUR YEARS, after the first line opened. What opened in 1976 while heavy rail and not a street car system, covered a small linear area. I'll guess maybe less than 5 miles.

It would be very, very incorrect to assume that the D.C. mayor and U.S. President said, "let there be a great subway system for our people" and the whole thing was designed, funded and built in 10 - 15 years.

More like a half century.

[drjeff]

How is the fare buying going to work? A printed, scannable receipt from the machines in each station? Is there going to be an app so one can just buy online and have an electronic receipt [[which would make the most sense)?

[Tig3rzhark]

Before considering adding a streetcar down E. Jefferson, it would be a good idea to at least get the QLine as far as 8Mile. The 498 Reflex line on Woodward that goes as far as Somerset, is only around on a trial basis and at any time, could be removed.

Maybe before putting down a streetcar on E.Jefferson, you should put one on Graitot instead.

Other streets like Grand River and Michigan, would be recommend for BRT.

Although as much I would as like to have light rail along Michigan from Detroit to Ann Arbor, I don't have much confidence in our metro area as a whole.

[emu steve]

Before considering adding a streetcar down E. Jefferson, it would be a good idea to at least get the QLine as far as 8Mile. The 498 Reflex line on Woodward that goes as far as Somerset, is only around on a trial basis and at any time, could be removed.

Maybe before putting down a streetcar on E.Jefferson, you should put one on Graitot instead.

Other streets like Grand River and Michigan, would be recommend for BRT.

Although as much I would as like to have light rail along Michigan from Detroit to Ann Arbor, I don't have much confidence in our metro area as a whole.

I don't know enough about Detroit and commuting patterns and neighborhoods, but how much revitalization effect would extending QLine to 8 mile bring? Would neighborhoods revitalize and grow?

The other thing, I believe, that many believe is that street cars are best for short haul trips say up to say 3 or max 5 miles in areas where there is a lot of 'infill' [[I made the term up for this usage) trips.

By 'infill' trip I mean a trip between two points, but usually not both terminuses [[or even one terminus).

E.g., someone might go from WSU to New Center. WSU to LCA or Comerica Park. Or maybe downtown to VAMC. Downtown to LCA or Comerica Park.

These trips are very different than someone getting on a transit [[e.g., street car) and going 8 miles from 8 mile to Congress.

Ideally, there is a different type of service, an 'express service' from say 8 mile with stops at New Center, WSU, and downtown.

The way I envision QLine is not a mass mover of thousands of people at rush hours from 8 mile road to midtown/downtown but a short haul mover of hundreds of people per hour along a short route [[< 3 miles or so).

Re Gratiot: How far would it extend and how many folks would use it?

BTW, the reasons I selected E. Jefferson and secondardly, Michigan Ave., is that these areas could really revitalize, esp. E. Jefferson. E. Jefferson could be like Midtown, a hot area for folks to live who want to work and play in downtown or Midtown. E. Jefferson would have a lot of potential with Belle Isle, Riverwalk, and everything up near Ren Cen.

[Tig3rzhark]

I don't know enough about Detroit and commuting patterns and neighborhoods, but how much revitalization effect would extending QLine to 8 mile bring? Would neighborhoods revitalize and grow?

The other thing, I believe, that many believe is that street cars are best for short haul trips say up to say 3 or max 5 miles in areas where there is a lot of 'infill' [[I made the term up for this usage) trips.

By 'infill' trip I mean a trip between two points, but usually not both terminuses [[or even one terminus).

E.g., someone might go from WSU to New Center. WSU to LCA or Comerica Park. Or maybe downtown to VAMC. Downtown to LCA or Comerica Park.

These trips are very different than someone getting on a transit [[e.g., street car) and going 8 miles from 8 mile to Congress.

Ideally, there is a different type of service, an 'express service' from say 8 mile with stops at New Center, WSU, and downtown.

The way I envision QLine is not a mass mover of thousands of people at rush hours from 8 mile road to midtown/downtown but a short haul mover of hundreds of people per hour along a short route [[< 3 miles or so).

Re Gratiot: How far would it extend and how many folks would use it?

BTW, the reasons I selected E. Jefferson and secondardly, Michigan Ave., is that these areas could really revitalize, esp. E. Jefferson. E. Jefferson could be like Midtown, a hot area for folks to live who want to work and play in downtown or Midtown. E. Jefferson would have a lot of potential with Belle Isle, Riverwalk, and everything up near Ren Cen.

Extending the QLine to 8Mile could help revive Highland Park along with the other Detroit neighborhoods, considering that's where the Model T Ford was built. The QLine could run in the center lane from Grand Blvd to 8 Mile, near the Fairgrounds, making it easier to get to the Meijers there, with limited stops along the way.

As for Gratiot, even though there's a 598 SMART Reflex bus that already runs along that route, I'm more confident that more people would use it when the trial is over. There's no guarantee that the Reflex route would stay permanently. Since the SMART has a policy of normally having most of their buses with the exception of the 200 Michigan, of only going as far as the city borders after certain hours. The next street car route could go as far as 8 Mile. And the regular SMART Graitot can stay out of the city.

Should any future light rail or BRT routes be created, then those routes would be under the control of the RTA instead of SMART or DDOT alone.