Statler site construction to start this summer?

[ABetterDetroit]

I can't believe any contractor would work for Holtzman on something like this. He is notorious for not paying for completed work and being an overall nightmare to do business with. My guess is these things have something to do with the still empty lot we see today.

Your guess is a lot closer to the truth in my opinion.

[3WC]

It's clear to anyone who knows the ins and outs of the deal, the formation of Village Green, Holtzman's background, and the split, that Better Detroit and K-Slice don't have the foggiest idea of what they're talking about. They hate the project and slander the developer. Pretty transparent.

VG and Holtzman split because of a difference in philosophy; Holtzman's 50% co-owner wanted to solely manage VG's and other's apartments. Holtzman wanted to do that plus build new ones. During the time of joint ownership of VG Holtznan built six major projects under the VG name.

As a result of the split, Holtzman owns all six of the newer developments and many of the apartments and the former co-owner is strictly in the property management business, a business with steady income but little if any upside.

Holtzman, it's true, has a reputation for being litigious but he's only protecting his own interests. I've never heard that he cheated anyone; if either of you two have any facts, lets hear them. We shouldn't hold our collective breath.

I have never heard anyone claim that he doesn't timely pay his subs what they're owed provided they completed the contracts according to their terms. Dan Gilbert does the same thing. Every developer I've know [[and there are plenty) operates the same was. That's how the world works, in every business.

By the way, K-slice, H has worked with hundreds of contractors over the years and the problem he had on this deal was the result of city extortion.

There was litigation with the former VG co-owner after the split but I hear it was over the fact many VG employees wanted to go with Holtzman and jumped from VG.

Construct I hear will start soon, so eat your hearts out.

[3WC]

Mikey, your last post was excellent. Very well stated even though I don't agree 100% with a couple of your comments.

[ABetterDetroit]

It's clear to anyone who knows the ins and outs of the deal, the formation of Village Green, Holtzman's background, and the split, that Better Detroit and K-Slice don't have the foggiest idea of what they're talking about. They hate the project and slander the developer. Pretty transparent.

VG and Holtzman split because of a difference in philosophy; Holtzman's 50% co-owner wanted to solely manage VG's and other's apartments. Holtzman wanted to do that plus build new ones. During the time of joint ownership of VG Holtznan built six major projects under the VG name.

As a result of the split, Holtzman owns all six of the newer developments and many of the apartments and the former co-owner is strictly in the property management business, a business with steady income but little if any upside.

Holtzman, it's true, has a reputation for being litigious but he's only protecting his own interests. I've never heard that he cheated anyone; if either of you two have any facts, lets hear them. We shouldn't hold our collective breath.

I have never heard anyone claim that he doesn't timely pay his subs what they're owed provided they completed the contracts according to their terms. Dan Gilbert does the same thing. Every developer I've know [[and there are plenty) operates the same was. That's how the world works, in every business.

By the way, K-slice, H has worked with hundreds of contractors over the years and the problem he had on this deal was the result of city extortion.

There was litigation with the former VG co-owner after the split but I hear it was over the fact many VG employees wanted to go with Holtzman and jumped from VG.

Construct I hear will start soon, so eat your hearts out.

Where are your "facts" and "let's hear them" on "city extortion" on this deal? Your accusations are far more serious in nature than anything k-slice and I have said. You in fact coincided we are correct about Holtzman: "Holtzman, it's true, has a reputation for being litigious" uh... that can slow a project down some.

You also have a obvious position on this development and are throwing whatever you can at the wall and seeing if it will stick. That was clear when you stated the shape of the lot was a problem. When? If your building with Legos?

You and Mikey like this development, others don't care, some think it sucks. So be it. I doubt anyone will lose a nights sleep let alone eat their heart out.

[3WC]

Being litigious is not a bad thing. Most people want what they bargain for and many go to the trouble of enforcing their agreements.

The City is in may opinion an extortionist. I don't have the specifics but the City has an Ordinance that requires developers and their sub-contractors to hire a large percentage of their workers that must be Detroit residents. Failure to do so results in large fines.

On, for example, the new hockey arena, few if any subs were able to hire a sufficient percentage of Detroiters. There just aren't any left who can or are willing to work so the subs just pay the fines.

The City of course knows that there aren't nearly enough Detroiters to fill the jobs, should provide in the Ordinance that fines are waived if the contractor can show it has made a serious effort to hire Detroiters and can't.

That's what a fair, well run City which prizes a reputation as a good place to do business would do. Not Detroit of course.

The money it extorts from fines is in the millions of dollars I'm told on the hockey arena alone.

If that's not extortion, what is? The contractor that pulled out of the VG project rather than be extorted considered the Ordinance extortion.

I don't have a "position" in this project but I know some of the players and have a good handle on what's going on in the real estate business downtown and I clearly think in my opinion that the Duggan Administration is almost as bad as, or will become worse than, Kwame's. Time will tell.

I wish Duggan had a viable opponent so I could donate a lot of money to him/her.

[southen]

The fines go towards training Detroit residents for jobs for these projects. So when the city gives these people land for pennies on the dollar, like the arena as well as Statler site, they can deal with the "extortion" that comes in the form of resident training.

Funny, in all of this talk of how rough it is for this particular developer there is no mention of how much was paid for the rights to the site. Take the outrage elsewhere.

[EGrant]

Funny, in all of this talk of how rough it is for this particular developer there is no mention of how much was paid for the rights to the site. Take the outrage elsewhere.

Agreed. Extortion would be how the rich owners building these areans threaten to move the team unless taxpayers chip in and build a new arena every 20 years.

[3WC]

Southen and EGrant: you both make a couple of great points about tax dollars being used to pay for private projects.

However, a very small portion of the fines go toward training Detroit residents for jobs. And, the City couldn't effectively train a dog to chase its tail.

The unions and contractors have their own training programs. The problem: they can't find enough people to enter the programs.

[southen]

Citations please.

After saying that the Ilitchs are responsible for the Coney restaurants and convention center surviving downtown I'm slightly more skeptical of your claims.

[3WC]

southern: I don't know why I respond to your email above but I have no idea what you're talking about. Ilitch? Coney restaurants? Convention Center?

[southen]

3WC my apologies, I confused your name with 313WX while replying. Ignore the second sentence, it has nothing to do with your commenting.

As for the citations I am still interested in knowing how you know so little of the fine money goes to training. I am still having a difficult time feeling bad for a developer that was gifted this property.

[Lowell]

By chance Crain's came out today with a lengthy article on this issue, its broken past, efforts to fix and a couple of success stories.

"But in Detroit, the traditional pipelines for skilled trades have been effectively broken for years, as evidenced by the near-death of Randolph Technical High School on the city's west side.

"With a capacity of 700 students, Randolph's enrollment had fallen below 100 students in recent years.

"Mayor Mike Duggan's administration and several Detroit business leaders have recently stepped in to revitalize the program with a $10 million investment in the school's facilities and programming, which will be expanded to adult classes at night.

"There's a business case to do it," said Frank Woods, president of the Detroit Chapter of the Coalition of Black Trade Unionists. "Now that the city is really taking off, they see that in order for them to continue to sustain what they have here, they need to make sure they have the workforce."

[3WC]

southern: I've probably lived a lot longer than you have, and if it's one thing I've learned, there's no such thing as a free lunch, in business or in life.

I agree with the Crain's article, which is what I've been saying all along; there are not enough people of train to fulfill the City's work requirements -- AND THE CITY OBVIOUSLY KNOWS IT. Why then doesn't the city waive the fines if a contractor shows it's tried to comply with the hiring requirements, and can't. Fining contractors when they can't comply is extortion.

I've also heard from more reliable sources than Crain's that the fines on the LC arena are higher than $5 million.

More people should go into skilled trades than liberal arts, from a financial standpoint [[I've hired a lot of skilled tradespeople in my time and onow what they charge.) Here's a nice story to make my point:

Plumber gets called to a large Grosse Point house. He works 6 hours and completes the job that evening. He hands the homeowner his bill.

Homeowner: "My God, I'm a corporate lawyer at a big downtown firm and I don't make that much money."

Plumber: "Neither did I when I practiced law."

[southen]

You probably have, but all of this is anecdotal without actual proof that the city wouldn't use the money as it says. That is your opinion and Lowell then provided an article showing that the city is actually trying to train more people.

It isn't extortion when the two developers in question received their land for nothing and in one case they received $300+ million of taxpayer dollars to float it. That money is then being used to directly help Detroiters which is a good thing.

[ParisianLesion]

You probably have, but all of this is anecdotal without actual proof that the city wouldn't use the money as it says. That is your opinion and Lowell then provided an article showing that the city is actually trying to train more people.

It isn't extortion when the two developers in question received their land for nothing and in one case they received $300+ million of taxpayer dollars to float it. That money is then being used to directly help Detroiters which is a good thing.

No, look, it isn't extortion because the contractors knew what the requirements were up front and what the fines were if they couldn't comply when they put their bid in for the project. These type of Contracting practices are not unusual for there to be some type of retainage or give back based on certain metrics during constructing a building or providing some other type of service. In every major trade industry in the Detroit area everyone knows that there's a major shortage of skilled Labour more so in some particular Industries than others. This is not a surprise to anyone. I guarantee you that the contractors who put their bids in knew that there was a high probability of risk that they were not going to be able to comply with the Detroit residency requirements and thus built said risk into their price. I doubt anybody is even really losing here other than the citizens of Detroit who don't have the skills to be employed.

[ABetterDetroit]

southern: I've probably lived a lot longer than you have, and if it's one thing I've learned, there's no such thing as a free lunch, in business or in life.

I agree with the Crain's article, which is what I've been saying all along; there are not enough people of train to fulfill the City's work requirements -- AND THE CITY OBVIOUSLY KNOWS IT. Why then doesn't the city waive the fines if a contractor shows it's tried to comply with the hiring requirements, and can't. Fining contractors when they can't comply is extortion.

I've also heard from more reliable sources than Crain's that the fines on the LC arena are higher than $5 million.

More people should go into skilled trades than liberal arts, from a financial standpoint [[I've hired a lot of skilled tradespeople in my time and onow what they charge.) Here's a nice story to make my point:

Plumber gets called to a large Grosse Point house. He works 6 hours and completes the job that evening. He hands the homeowner his bill.

Homeowner: "My God, I'm a corporate lawyer at a big downtown firm and I don't make that much money."

Plumber: "Neither did I when I practiced law."

The 300+ Million the developer and exclusive operator of the LCA received from the City of Detroit sure would buy a shit load of free lunch.

Why in Gods name would you think the City should waive the contractual agreements the developer agreed to with them on the LCA deal?

"Being litigious is not a bad thing. Most people want what they bargain for and many go to the trouble of enforcing their agreements." -You post #55

"More people should go into skilled trades"-You post #63 uhhh... That is the goal of these fines is making sure that these apprenticeships in the trades are open to Detroiters who need the jobs. Breaking the friends and family only union hiring practices in the trades. Is that not a good thing? Especially to a conservative Republican like yourself? Everything is a contradiction with you until it can't even be understood beyond: Rich people Good! Poor people Bad!

[1953]

I don't have a problem with the labor rules that developers voluntarily agree to play by [[fines and such), but I think it should be pointed out that the "taxpayers money" is money provided by a locality to help subsidize an otherwise upside-down deal. The argument would be that Ilitch/Olympia received money from the city to cover the financing gap that exists between what it costs to build an arena and what the market would bear, because the city wants the arena built. So, in that way, the developer received no free money, but, rather, buy-in from a municipal partner. In this way, its hard to argue the developer should be on the hook for gobs and gobs of kickbacks -- if the city doesn't want to build an arena, all they have to do is not buy into the deal in the first place.

[Lowell]

And so it begins with two porta-potties and a front loader. Shot from Sept. 20, 2017. Construction of Detroit City Apartments begins on the site of the former Statler Hotel on Grand Circus Park in Downtown Detroit.

[Infrastructure]

I saw PLA removing light poles a few weeks ago and about 10 men on site this morning with excavators starting to dig. I think this is the real thing now.

[401don]

And so it begins with two porta-potties and a front loader. Shot from Sept. 20, 2017.

Take one for the team Lowell. Run out and lay down in front of that front loader - or at least the porta-potties.

[DetroitGuy423]

Take one for the team Lowell. Run out and lay down in front of that front loader - or at least the porta-potties.

If only the Statler had held on for a few more years. What a restoration that would have been.

[southen]

How fitting a day after Gilbert announces were going vertical that this uninspiring stumpy project starts. This is a great block getting a lousy building. I just hope that whatever eventually goes up on the Tuller site puts this thing to shame.

[rbdetsport]

After the last few announcements.. I hate this project. Before I was willing to deal with it given that it was at least the height of the average building along Washington Blvd.. But this is a prime site for a development of the same scale as the Monroe Block and Hudsons Block.

[casscorridor]

After the last few announcements.. I hate this project. Before I was willing to deal with it given that it was at least the height of the average building along Washington Blvd.. But this is a prime site for a development of the same scale as the Monroe Block and Hudsons Block.

It is a pretty underwhelming project. I don't think it needs to be really tall, more like 8-10 floors would be suitable.

[401don]

They better have some serious soundproofing in the windows. The People Mover is not exactly quiet.