Height Limitations for Pre-depression Detroit Skyscrapers?

[48202]

John Portman was revolutionary for a number of reasons – the use of exposed concrete, the hotel atrium, his urban planning perspective [[those damn berms), because we was a real estate developer as well as an architect. The fact that Portman was creating the same forms in multiple cities actually set him aside from other architects, who seek to create something different with each project. Henry Ford II and company could have hired architects, planners, and designers to create whatever they wanted, and they chose Portman, with all of the things that he stands for. That is making a statement – it is not accidental.

Do you think Frank Lloyd Wright wasn’t making a statement with his architecture because he designed a whole bunch of usonian houses?

[MIRepublic]

If nothing else, this building could have been 4 feet shorter then Peachtree Plaza in Atlanta, but it wasn’t. It is 4 feet taller.

I've done extensive research on the physical stats of both towers. The height difference is only because of the differing ground elevations around the towers in both cities.

I'm not saying that the RenCen isn't special, at all, but I do doubt the conjecture that the architect was seeking to make a much more grand statement in Detroit than in Atlanta or LA. He simply found a developer with more money to blow on a huge project.

[stasu1213]

I had started this tread to find out why Detroit had never had any buildings higher than 730 ft. I wasn't saying that I am disappointed that Detroit didn't have a building as tall as the Sears Towers or the WTC. I had found my answer through some of you guys. As the conversation went on someone had brought up that a tall building in New York wasn't 100 percent occupied. I was just say that on my findings, Detroit didn't need a taller building than the Penobscott building. I was at the Guardian Bldg celebration earlier this year when the height limitation question was asked. The tour guide had made the comment "While New York and Chicago thrived on height,, Detroit thrived on praticality". I didn't get the full meaning of that answer until I had made a thread on the question.

[48202]

MIRepublic,
I agree that Portman wasn’t trying to make a specific statement for Detroit that he wasn’t making elsewhere. But those was who hired him knew that they were defining the future of Detroit, and they were telling the world that the ‘67 riot did not put the city out of commission. They were saying that we are on the cutting edge - just like Atlanta and LA.

Peachtree Plaza is 73 floors, but RenCen is taller with only 70. Do you have any insights why RenCen has higher floor to floor heights? I’m not suggesting that this was done just to gain height. I’m curious what the practical need was – larger ductwork? deeper floor beams? higher ceilings?

Those four feet were enough to get RenCen in the record books. The hotel could have just as well been a story higher, or story shorter. While the project was being designed, and the height of the tower, and number of floors was being discussed, the issue of setting records was likely considered.


Stasu1213,
You should be proud that your question sparked this dialog. I’ve been lurking here for at least 9 years, and this topic prompted me to post more than I ever had previously.

Every building, neighborhood, and city has a story on how and why it came to be. You’ve probably already discovered that some of those stories are pretty fascinating!

[stasu1213]

Thanks. The Ren Cen restaurant at the top is two levels. You also have to look at the foyer of the RenCen compared to the foyer of Peachtree. That might be the determining factor as to why the RenCen has only seventy floors but taller than Peachtree with 73 floors. I love looking at old buildings and try to find the history of them. Detroit was unique in it's heyday for it's boasts of multiple business/retail districts thoughout the city. Residents didn't have to come out of their' neighborhoods to go downtown to shop if not needed. Detroit had Vandyke/Gratoit. Grand River/Oakman. 7mile/Livernois. Harper/Vandyke, Gratiot/7mi, Curtis/Wyoming. Mack/7mi etc. That was one of the things that had amazed visitors staying in Detroit during that era. We had a bustling downtown with Hudson's on top of that. That is why I had questioned the building of more tall buildings downtown. New York need tall buildings for the density is thick in Manhattan and in the boroughs. Some of them will be moving into Detroit to take advantage of these cheap homes. I think Detroit is on the verge of a comeback. May not be as big geographically wise as it once was but it will make a comeback with more room to spreadout. We might have a Central Park in the middle of the city where there were blyte.

[Trumpeteer]

Thanks. The Ren Cen restaurant at the top is two levels. You also have to look at the foyer of the RenCen compared to the foyer of Peachtree.

The restaurant at the top of the Westin Peachtree Plaza is two floors as well with the upper floor consisting of a six foot wide walkway that circles the floor below with approximately 12 foot diameter serving/standing areas that look down over the seating below. The actual restaurant floor rotates a full 380 so the view is always changing. The lobby adjoins the former Davisons/Macy's that is soon to be re-opened after years of neglect as a special events facility with two restaurants.

[stasu1213]

How many square footage is the whole rencen complex including the two buildings on the side?

[Gistok]

I don't know where you got the 70 floor figure from at the RenCen.... I always remember taking the elevator to the top [[back in the days of the Summit Restaurant)... and there are not 2 but 3 floors at the top of the tower... IIRC the upper and lower floors used to revolve, while the middle one [[with the pods) did not.

What I can't recall is the floor numbering at the top... whether it was 70-71-72 or 71-72-73. Now I'm not sure that number refers to the ACTUAL floors [[since the hotel floors started at the 9th floor).... or "implied" floors [[assuming floors 1-8 were what the soaring lobby and its less than 8 levels would have added up to).

But there is an additional floor at the top of the hotel [[above the restaurant)... that is strictly mechanical. From the outside, it is the intented space at the top of the tower.

[stasu1213]

I would like to compare the total square footage of the RenCEn including the two EDS towers compared to the square footage of WTC 1 and WTC 2

[Patrick]

Famed architect Gunnar Birkerts claimed that the Ren Cen's height was a mistake and that it should have been spread out vertically along the river.

[48202]

I don't know where you got the 70 floor figure from at the RenCen....

Gistok, I got it from the emporis website that I posted above. Interesting, I now see that Marriott has it at 73 stories.

http://www.marriott.com/hotels/trave...ssance-center/

[crawford]

I would like to compare the total square footage of the RenCEn including the two EDS towers compared to the square footage of WTC 1 and WTC 2

The entire Ren Cen [[all seven buildings; both phases), is about the same size as one of the WTC towers.

Keep in mind that the former WTC did not solety consist of the Twin Towers. As with the new version of the WTC, there are a bunch of different buildings with different uses.

[Meddle]

I would like to compare the total square footage of the RenCEn including the two EDS towers compared to the square footage of WTC 1 and WTC 2

The square footage of those two is Zero, so I don't see your point.

[Gistok]

Each of the four 39 story towers that surround the hotel had 550,000 square feet [[or 2.2 million in total). That was only the office square footage. I don't remember seeing the total for either the hotel or the retail space. I don't remember the exact square footage of Towers 500 and 600, but they are around 250,000 each.

[crawford]

The tour guide had made the comment "While New York and Chicago thrived on height,, Detroit thrived on praticality". I didn't get the full meaning of that answer until I had made a thread on the question.

This isn't really true. The vacancy rate in NYC is the lowest of any central business district in the country, the vacancy rate in Detroit is the highest of any central business district in the country.

It could therefore be argued that NYC needs more center-city office space and Detroit needs less. Additionally, keep in mind that 100% vacant buildings are not counted in office vacancy rates, so they are not factoring in the Book Tower, David Stott, David Whitney, etc.

[MIRepublic]

Peachtree Plaza is 73 floors, but RenCen is taller with only 70. Do you have any insights why RenCen has higher floor to floor heights? I’m not suggesting that this was done just to gain height. I’m curious what the practical need was – larger ductwork? deeper floor beams? higher ceilings?

Those four feet were enough to get RenCen in the record books. The hotel could have just as well been a story higher, or story shorter. While the project was being designed, and the height of the tower, and number of floors was being discussed, the issue of setting records was likely considered.

Here's the deal on the floor count. The building has 70 above ground/grade floors [[including the mechanical penthouse on the roof, so really only 69 above grade floors) and two lower levels [[winter garden at back). The tower has no labled 7th, 8th, or 13th floor, which is why Coach Insignia gets can claim a floor 71 & 72.

And, again, about the height. The difference can be accounted for simple in the difference in elevation of the ground around each tower. I'd bet the one in Atlanta is exactly the same height if both were on even ground. The difference doesn't seem to be any major conscious difference in the actual design of the two, and I bet some research into the actual floor count of the Westin Peachtree would also show that the "73" number listed for it is due to similar reasons as the RenCen.

Hope I've been of help. I was very much interested in the differences of both of these towers at one time, which got me into researching each, though, the RenCen more.

[stasu1213]

How did you get this info? Is there a website that I could go to so I can verify it? If it is true then how many stories would each building had been? Remember, the tallest part of the RenCen is the hotel. He would had to divided that into several buildings which would had made it look more like a resort. I had notice that the design of the RenCen is the same as the design of the original Detroit street layout in the 1700s by a guy named Woodward. You noticed how Campus Martius is a circle. It was suppose to have branches or streets that will go into another circle[[Grand Circus Park). Then streets or branches would had went from there into another circle and etc. The RenCen floormat is set up the same. The hotel in the middle is a circle[[Campus Martius) which have hallways[[like streets) that take you to each towers which are circles. This was the way that Detroit was originally designed back in the 1700s.

[Jason]

MIRepublic, I don't think that someone builds the world's tallest hotel without it being intentional.

Stasu1213, I think Gunnar Birkert's point is that if you're going to be building that amount of square footage, and your goal is to revitalize an area, you can get more bang for your buck and have a more positive impact if you build it more horizontally. If the Ren Cen had been built horizontally instead of vertically, all of those parking lots east of the Ren Cen would have occupied buildings on them. Instead, today, you have a fortress next to half a mile of parking lots.

[stasu1213]

I would agree. You could do many things with seven 10 story buildings than one 70 story bldg. When businesses move out of one or two of them if would not affect the rest of the six.

[MIRepublic]

MIRepublic, I don't think that someone builds the world's tallest hotel without it being intentional.

I never said that. I'm sure the developers were happy to try and push it to be the tallest. I said that it probably wasn't the architects attempt to make this the tallest given that it's about as indentical to the Westin Peachtree as you can get. He really probably just pulled back out the blue prints and dropped a few office towers around the already-designed hotel.