"Qline Effect"? 20-story-plus high-rise Rumored for New Center

**professorscott** · April-25-17, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by 48307

I did not notice any signal prioritization

I don't know whether QLine has signal prioritization or not, but you can't tell during testing. Here's why. Transit signal prioritization is almost always designed for the vehicle to send a request to the traffic signal controller only if the vehicle is more than a certain amount of time behind schedule. [[This is for an obvious reason: the signal prioritization disrupts automobile traffic, and there is no reason to do this if the streetcar is ahead of schedule.) During testing, there is no schedule so it is not possible for a vehicle to be behind its schedule.

If there is signal prioritization anywhere along the line, this will become manifest only once the system starts operating, and only if you can tell when a vehicle is sufficiently "down", as they say in the biz.

**Scottathew** · April-25-17, 01:40 PM

Thanks Professor! Good information!

**Canadian Visitor** · April-25-17, 10:10 PM

You're quite welcome Professor.

May I add, I appreciate your insightful response. I know Detroit [[at some level) or wouldn't be here [[the forum); but clearly lack the insight someone such as yourself can offer.

**Detroit Stylin** · April-29-17, 04:12 PM

So Professor. I have noticed lights downtown at Congress and at Amsterdam where the tracks turn into center running. Will there be signals all through the system? I have noticed how some idiots still jump in front of the trains as it is going, or people in the curb side lane not paying attention [[which i saw the other day and the operator had to lay on the horn for quite a few minutes to wake that driver up) which I wonder will potentially be a problem?

**professorscott** · April-29-17, 09:30 PM

Originally Posted by Detroit Stylin

So Professor. I have noticed lights downtown at Congress and at Amsterdam where the tracks turn into center running. Will there be signals all through the system? I have noticed how some idiots still jump in front of the trains as it is going, or people in the curb side lane not paying attention [[which i saw the other day and the operator had to lay on the horn for quite a few minutes to wake that driver up) which I wonder will potentially be a problem?

The signals are placed where the engineers think it is important for the operator to have a signal separate from the automotive traffic, so I doubt there will be a large number of transit-only signals.

As to your other observation, of course you can't idiot-proof any system; that is blasphemy, as God made the idiots, and when you try, God simply comes along and makes a better idiot. All we can do is try to make them fairly idiot-resistant and hope to stay under the Lord's radar.

**Detroit Stylin** · April-30-17, 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by professorscott

The signals are placed where the engineers think it is important for the operator to have a signal separate from the automotive traffic, so I doubt there will be a large number of transit-only signals.

As to your other observation, of course you can't idiot-proof any system; that is blasphemy, as God made the idiots, and when you try, God simply comes along and makes a better idiot. All we can do is try to make them fairly idiot-resistant and hope to stay under the Lord's radar.

Lol right. Unfortunately lol

**dtowncitylover** · May-01-17, 02:53 AM

Professor, I asked a question in a larger post a week or so ago so you might not have seen it but I was curious as to what it would take for QLine to be absorbed into DDOT and they create a street railway division like DSR. Cheers, thanks!

**professorscott** · May-01-17, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

Professor, I asked a question in a larger post a week or so ago so you might not have seen it but I was curious as to what it would take for QLine to be absorbed into DDOT and they create a street railway division like DSR. Cheers, thanks!

Hi Dtown,

I didn't see it, and I'm not in anybody else's head about this one, but I can give a pretty good answer based on what I know about the players. I don't think this is possible, at least in the medium term, for a couple of reasons. First, I don't think DDOT would want to absorb it; nobody there has any experience with operation or maintenance of rail vehicles, or with the infrastructure of an electric railway. [[The PeopleMover is operated by an entirely separate operation.) Second, I don't think the QLine backers would have any interest in handing it over to the city.

Now, eight or ten years from now, who knows? DDOT's reputation is improving, nobody knows whether there will ever be a properly funded RTA [[which is what is supposed to eventually take over QLine) or what other governmental structures might or might not exist by then. But for the next, let's say, five to eight years, there's no chance of that at all.

**dtowncitylover** · May-02-17, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by professorscott

Hi Dtown,

I didn't see it, and I'm not in anybody else's head about this one, but I can give a pretty good answer based on what I know about the players. I don't think this is possible, at least in the medium term, for a couple of reasons. First, I don't think DDOT would want to absorb it; nobody there has any experience with operation or maintenance of rail vehicles, or with the infrastructure of an electric railway. [[The PeopleMover is operated by an entirely separate operation.) Second, I don't think the QLine backers would have any interest in handing it over to the city.

Now, eight or ten years from now, who knows? DDOT's reputation is improving, nobody knows whether there will ever be a properly funded RTA [[which is what is supposed to eventually take over QLine) or what other governmental structures might or might not exist by then. But for the next, let's say, five to eight years, there's no chance of that at all.

Thanks Prof! I figured you missed it which is why I asked in a new post, that's all. I appreciate the answer. I asked because in a normal city most urban transit is controlled by the transit agency. I'm thinking specifically of Toronto in which the TTC controls, para, buses, subway, and streetcar. So why couldn't DDOT just create a streetcar division? Is there a law out there that says DDOT can only manage a bus system? What's preventing DDOT in hiring the right people to manage a streetcar division?

We need the RTA overall, but for the QLine and future streetcar needs why are we waiting for the RTA? Why would a regional body oversee a city-specific system?

You may not know these answers Prof, but it seems pretty common sense questions to me.

**Junjie** · May-02-17, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

Thanks Prof! I figured you missed it which is why I asked in a new post, that's all. I appreciate the answer. I asked because in a normal city most urban transit is controlled by the transit agency. I'm thinking specifically of Toronto in which the TTC controls, para, buses, subway, and streetcar. So why couldn't DDOT just create a streetcar division? Is there a law out there that says DDOT can only manage a bus system? What's preventing DDOT in hiring the right people to manage a streetcar division?

We need the RTA overall, but for the QLine and future streetcar needs why are we waiting for the RTA? Why would a regional body oversee a city-specific system?

You may not know these answers Prof, but it seems pretty common sense questions to me.

I'm not at all an expert but just wanted to say it's not clear that there's only one "right" way to organize things. For example, in DC the streetcar line is run by [[the District's) DDOT, but WMATA is the DC equivalent of the RTA and is responsible for the subway and regional bus routes. In Philadelphia, though, virtually everything from streetcars to buses to subways is under SEPTA which again is closest to the RTA and handles transit for the entire region.

**dtowncitylover** · May-02-17, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Junjie

I'm not at all an expert but just wanted to say it's not clear that there's only one "right" way to organize things. For example, in DC the streetcar line is run by [[the District's) DDOT, but WMATA is the DC equivalent of the RTA and is responsible for the subway and regional bus routes. In Philadelphia, though, virtually everything from streetcars to buses to subways is under SEPTA which again is closest to the RTA and handles transit for the entire region.

Yeah totally, that's very true. I guess my overall point is that despite not having a funded RTA why is necessary to have one in order to run the line when there's a transit agency already there?

**emu steve** · May-02-17, 05:33 PM

Here is a nice Freep article on QLine and other systems in U.S. and around the world.

http://www.freep.com/story/money/bus...ars/101212540/

My gut reaction is two parts:

1). The demand which we will see in the first couple months. I consider this demand 'baked in.' Build it [[QLine) and folks will utilize it.

2). "New" demand which does not exist today BUT will as more and more housing, commercial enterprises, etc. locate along the QLine route. E.g., I'd guess that most anyone renting a new apartment in the future along Woodward say between LCA and Mack [[including Brush Park) probably works along the route either north or south from downtown to New Center.

It just makes so much sense for someone working at the medical centers, WSU, downtown, New Center, etc. to live and work in the area and commute using QLine.

Exurbs make sense for some folks [[not me, though) but for me a 10 minute commute is like being in heaven.

I have a friend, international grad student, who lives in D.C. and takes the subway to school. She lives one block from the subway and then goes 5 stops before getting off. She doesn't even park her car at her residence. 100% public transit.

**professorscott** · May-02-17, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by emu steve

Here is a nice Freep article on QLine and other systems in U.S. and around the world.

http://www.freep.com/story/money/bus...ars/101212540/

I was going to publish the link, Steve, but you beat me to it, and I enjoyed your analysis as well. Mr. Gallagher's article is thoughtful and balanced. I'm glad he thought to give a shout-out to "Rip" Rapson and the Kresge foundation; without their initial involvement and support, it is entirely possible that none of this could have happened. Rip, as they say, wrote the first check.

Monday next, look for some significant coverage in Crain's, from my colleague Bill Shea. Your kindly old Professor spoke with Bill over the telephone while he was preparing the article, mostly about the distant-past history of the thing, since that is when I had the honor to be involved.

[[By the way, since a couple of people have questioned my self-appellation, which I have used frequently here over the years, as "your kindly old Professor", I think I will touch on it. I am indisputably a professor; I teach at colleges and universities, though I have my fingers in other pots as well. Most people who know me well would concede, if grudgingly, that I am usually kindly; and it is beyond dispute that I am old.)

**MSUguy** · May-08-17, 10:03 PM

One thing that should be pointed out is the city's planning efforts in the area ahead of the QLine. It's not as if the city has been twiddling their thumbs waiting for development to happen. Last year the city rezoned much of Midtown it reduced parking requirements and made mixed development easier something that Portland did before their streetcar started. It went completely unnoticed by the crack reporters in this town, but it's a very big deal in terms of future development. As evidenced by new 300+ unit Midtown West development one one if those rezoned parcels. The city has been very intentional in laying the ground work to make this a success.

https://nextcity.org/daily/entry/whe...s-and-portland

**emu steve** · May-09-17, 06:16 AM

Lot of excellent points in this article.

Taking the most obvious is that the QLine benefits by having a route which is far superior to that of either Portland or St. Louis.

In that sense the 3.3M route serves as many destinations as one could expect in a route that short.

It is breath taking to note that QLine will service New Center, WSU, DIA, DMC, VAMC, Fisher Center, LCA, Cass Tech H.S., Comerica, Ford Field, Fox and other entertainment venues, as well as all of downtown near Woodward.

That is a substantial proportion of Detroit's commercial office space, hospitals, higher education, sports, cultural entertainment, etc.

Because of that, with smart zoning, infill development seems like a no-brainer.

Why I think the QLine will be a big success: Transportation planners have their qualms about streetcar systems, including speed, BUT in Detroit's case it is designed to move people a relatively short distance.

Once the system is up and running, the planners will collect data. It is very possible that the majority of trips will not be 3.3 miles or close to that. Someone may take a trip from DMC to downtown. A WSU business student shutling back and forth from main campus and the School of Business building next to LCA is only going a mile or so.

We'll see where residents along the QLine route will go for their trips.

**Bham1982** · May-09-17, 06:51 AM

Originally Posted by emu steve

It is breath taking to note that QLine will service New Center, WSU, DIA, DMC, VAMC, Fisher Center, LCA, Cass Tech H.S., Comerica, Ford Field, Fox and other entertainment venues, as well as all of downtown near Woodward.

Yes, absolutely breathtaking. It's probably the first time in global history that a city's main transit route has served high schools, colleges, hospitals and sports stadia. No doubt this is unprecedented...

**professorscott** · May-09-17, 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Yes, absolutely breathtaking. It's probably the first time in global history that a city's main transit route has served high schools, colleges, hospitals and sports stadia. No doubt this is unprecedented...

If you start to run out of your sarcasm pills, Bham, let me know; I'd be happy to stop at Rite-Aid and pick you up a refill.

You are missing one of the main points of the post to which you refer; it's not that transit stops at important destinations [[of which, as you rightly point out, duh) but that this particular city has so many such destinations in a single linear corridor such that they can be, and now have been, easily connected by a short, simple, linear route that will be easy for residents and visitors to figure out.

One of the fairly unusual things about Detroit is that it has two downtowns a few miles apart. If you look back to when we started working on this project, which I believe was about eleven years ago, midtown wasn't "midtown", it was the "cass corridor" and was known chiefly for the proliferation of a particular form of cocaine and for people who were willing to rent out their bodies to be able to get a hold of the cocaine. I am not Donald Trump so I am not sufficiently infected with hubris as to believe that all of the changes in midtown, and the corridor in between midtown and downtown, are because of the QLine, but I am willing to bet that some of it is, and in all likelihood a lot of it is.

YKOP

**emu steve** · May-09-17, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Yes, absolutely breathtaking. It's probably the first time in global history that a city's main transit route has served high schools, colleges, hospitals and sports stadia. No doubt this is unprecedented...

You could have used a snarky emoticon, but I get you...

I still maintain there is a handful [[actually less) U.S. cities which have as much as Detroit has from say DIA/WSU to Cobo, a 2-mile stretch.

I'm not going to list everything again, but within 2 miles one has DIA, a major university, major performing arts centers, three stadiums/arenas, gambling casinos, major medical care facilities, convention center, etc. etc.

Few American cities can top that list. That is one helluva lot of signficant venues in such a small linear area.

[[The 'problem' with Detroit, then, is once one gets away from New Center-downtown what else is there? Detroit-Mercy, CAY airport, Belle Isle, the Catholic Cathredral, etc.).

**emu steve** · May-09-17, 09:07 AM

Professor Scott: If I might, our simultaneous posts are the results of 'great minds.' ;-)

I thought of say the stretch of Pennsylvania Ave. in D.C. from the Capitol to the White House.

It is beautiful [[I've walked, protest marches, a few times already this year) with an incredible amount of signficant buildings, but the list is not really more impressive than what Detroit has in the 2 linear mile route from DIA/WSU to Cobo.

What Detroit lacks is the pristine beauty of Penn. Ave. Penn. Ave is absolutely pristine. Literally gorgeous.

It might be the most beautiful 2-mile stretch in big city urban America.

**emu steve** · May-09-17, 09:15 AM

I might add to B'ham:

I started another thread about a top 10 list of developable sites along Woodward on the Qline route.

As I suggested, Friday isn't the END of the journey [[or September with LCA's opening), but a mile post in the journey.

The route has many, many more signficant structures to be built: the Hudson site, Woodward/Mack, Woodward/W. Warren, various sites on Woodward near New Center.

There is plenty of opportunities over the next 5 years to take the 3.3M to another level.

**masterblaster** · May-10-17, 07:23 AM

Originally Posted by emu steve

[[The 'problem' with Detroit, then, is once one gets away from New Center-downtown what else is there? Detroit-Mercy, CAY airport, Belle Isle, the Catholic Cathredral, etc.).

The Riverwalk, Eastern Market, the East Riverfront, Henry Ford Hospital, Motown Museum, the Dequindre Cut, Motor City Casino, Corktown, Mexicantown, the Villages, Palmer Park and the Apartment District, Hamtramck. Potential trendy neighborhoods of the future: Jefferson-Chalmers, Avenue of Fashion, Old Redford

**emu steve** · May-10-17, 09:11 AM

I didn't include neighborhoods, per se, but yes I missed a lot like Riverwalk, Eastern Market, Motor City Casino, HFH, etc. [[although both Motor City Casino and HFH are on the edge of Midtown or New Center).

**gumby** · May-10-17, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by emu steve

I didn't include neighborhoods, per se, but yes I missed a lot like Riverwalk, Eastern Market, Motor City Casino, HFH, etc. [[although both Motor City Casino and HFH are on the edge of Midtown or New Center).

Well you stated "The 'problem' with Detroit, then, is once one gets away from New Center-downtown what else is there?" and now you are saying you "didn't include neighborhoods, per se" well outside of New Center and Downtown all there is is the neighborhoods you didn't include. Could you be anymore disingenuous?

**southen** · May-10-17, 12:48 PM

Yeah what about Belle Island! </sarcasm>

**313WX** · May-10-17, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by gumby

Well you stated "The 'problem' with Detroit, then, is once one gets away from New Center-downtown what else is there?" and now you are saying you "didn't include neighborhoods, per se" well outside of New Center and Downtown all there is is the neighborhoods you didn't include. Could you be anymore disingenuous?

Meh, emu steve's posts have always focused on downtown only [[which isn't a bad thing). So I wouldn't call it disingenuous.