"Qline Effect"? 20-story-plus high-rise Rumored for New Center

[Lowell]

I'll give this one a ten per cent chance on the "Skipper's Rule" scale but it is indicative of the continuing interest in the New Center. According to Crain's the possible project would be on the southwest corner of Woodward Avenue and West Grand Boulevard.

It is not clear if they mean exactly on the corner or just south as the entity behind it. It is the plan of a Philadelphia developer by the name of Grasso operating as 6565 Woodward Holdings LLC. who is under contract to purchase the property from Midtown Detroit Inc. It was registered in January.

A phase increasingly bandied about is the "Qline Effect", this one being cited as another example:

Maurice Cox, the city's planning director, said he has not been briefed on Grasso's plans and cautioned that he "can't count the number of speculative development projects that come on our radar and amount to nothing."

"I think we get about a dozen a week," he said.

He also said the QLine has been a key factor in boosting development interest along the streetcar's route.

"There is no question that the QLine, with that singular, 3.3-mile investment, all of the neighborhoods to the east and the west of it have become transit-oriented development opportunities," he said. "That's a good thing for Detroit, and it talks about the power of that fixed transit investment that developers can count on being in place in perpetuity."

I'm happy to see all these bites but I am still trying to wrap my mind around the appeal of the Qline in creating the interest it seems to be doing.

[Scottathew]

Over the weekend I imagined in my mind M1-Rail expanded up to Pontiac and cities strategically discussing where stations would be. The cities would then re-zone land around the stations to allow for high-rise development. Land values and densities would greatly increase in areas that are within winter walking distance from the stations as more and more professionals find themselves with jobs in Downtown and Midtown Detroit.

[emu steve]

Over the weekend I imagined in my mind M1-Rail expanded up to Pontiac and cities strategically discussing where stations would be. The cities would then re-zone land around the stations to allow for high-rise development. Land values and densities would greatly increase in areas that are within winter walking distance from the stations as more and more professionals find themselves with jobs in Downtown and Midtown Detroit.

This sounds like 'chapter and verse' of what has happened in the Washington, D.C. area.

Development has occurred around subway stations because it sure as hell beats driving in downtown D.C. [[I did yesterday in D.C. on EASTER Sunday and took me 40 minutes to go 5 miles).

Quite simply, if someone works downtown or another employment center [[e.g., Tysons Corner, Ballston, Pentagon, etc. etc.) one tries to take public transportation.

And if you walk out your door and go 5 minutes to a subway station and then get off the subway and walk another 5 minutes to the door of your place of work, consider yourself in D.C. heaven.

Anyone who has tried to drive a mile or two during the evening rush in downtown D.C. knows what driving hell is like: Gridlock, one-way streets, traffic circles, inattentive pedestrians, etc.

[southen]

Didn't Sue Mosey hint at some buildings of 20+ stories coming to the Midtown/New Center area? This is great. Density along Woodward will go a long way into enticing smaller developers to reach out into places like New Center, Woodbridge etc.

[Gsgeorge]

The faster they can get the street car down Michigan, Gratiot, and Jefferson, the better.

[Zacha341]

Well for what it's worth that high rise apartment building nearby on the corner of Seward and Woodward is being rehabbed. It sat vacant and ruined for over 15 years!

[DeLemur]

Qline starts in a month! We'll see how it goes. It looks nice, but will need ridership to show continuing interest.

As for development, the success of DuCharme place and Orleans landing will be interesting to see, then further down the road the residential off of the stadiums. How's the Scott doing with occupancy? The Strathmore certainly filled up quick. One downside though is property values have gotten so high so quick, that Detroit's competitive advantage and being a great value is changing quick.

[ABetterDetroit]

Qline starts in a month! We'll see how it goes. It looks nice, but will need ridership to show continuing interest.

As for development, the success of DuCharme place and Orleans landing will be interesting to see, then further down the road the residential off of the stadiums. How's the Scott doing with occupancy? The Strathmore certainly filled up quick. One downside though is property values have gotten so high so quick, that Detroit's competitive advantage and being a great value is changing quick.

I believe just the opposite is true. If apartments are $600 a month and plentiful it sends a strong signal that something is wrong.

High demand and a rising market has the opposite effect.

People like validation to the decisions they make. Makes them more comfortable. As much as people like to think they are unique the reality is true, they prefer to go with the heard.

[emu steve]

Qline starts in a month! We'll see how it goes. It looks nice, but will need ridership to show continuing interest.

I agree completely. Today we are discussing optimistic projections, fantasies, dystopian projections, etc.

In four weeks QL starts to produce empirical data.

Ridership could be worse or could be better.

[emu steve]

This is the opposite, a story in today's Washington Post of what happened to an older area when a proposed streetcar line was killed by the pols in Arlington.

The opposite of what we hope would happen with public transit.

The most instructive part starts around paragraph seven.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...=.e7f0c79a9ee2

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

The Q-Line is no panacea for regional transit, of course. But I do favor extending it to Pontiac, as well as adding several arterial lines along several of the main boulevards leading into downtown. People won't [[for the most part) be riding great distances on it [[although that will certainly be possible). The bonus is that it greatly expands your "neighborhood" along the line. Going to work, out to dinner, to the store, to a bar with your buddies, to the dry cleaner, etc all suddenly can be done over a much larger area with speed and ease. A full length QLine would be full of tons of 1 or 2 or 5mile trips all along the route, not lots of 30 mile riders.

[dtowncitylover]

I repeat: A streetcar is not a mode of commuter suburban transit. It is a mode in urban, dense areas.

[emu steve]

I repeat: A streetcar is not a mode of commuter suburban transit. It is a mode in urban, dense areas.

That is true.

If your one way trip is say 15 miles, a streetcar isn't going to hack it.

Maybe we can 'pivot' and someone can discuss: "Suburbanization and the decline of the streetcar in Detroit."

Is it too simple to say that with growth of the suburban population and job growth that the utility of a streetcar system declined until it wasn't feasible.

[Bham1982]

I repeat: A streetcar is not a mode of commuter suburban transit. It is a mode in urban, dense areas.

A streetcar is a low capacity transit system, analogous to buses, but without the flexibility. They can be used in urban, dense areas, but are more commonly used for secondary corridors, whether city or suburb.

[1953]

K-slice put it perfectly. I, too, am not likely to get on a city bus anytime soon, but I'll gladly ride the Qline from its first day. Its all perception.

1953

[Bham1982]

K-slice put it perfectly. I, too, am not likely to get on a city bus anytime soon, but I'll gladly ride the Qline from its first day. Its all perception.

1953

Why? This makes zero sense.

DYes posters have never ridden buses? Has anyone posting here actually lived in an urban area? I suspect I'm one of the few people here who has lived car-free.

[dtowncitylover]

Why? This makes zero sense.

DYes posters have never ridden buses? Has anyone posting here actually lived in an urban area? I suspect I'm one of the few people here who has lived car-free.

I've lived car-free in Chicago. It wasn't bad and my first leg of my commute was on the bus. But see that's the thing, the CTA worked. DDOT and SMART do not and are not known for being clean, safe, modern, and on time.

But yay let's rehash things that have been talked about in 20 other threads.

[Junjie]

Why? This makes zero sense.

DYes posters have never ridden buses? Has anyone posting here actually lived in an urban area? I suspect I'm one of the few people here who has lived car-free.

I spent two years riding Alexandria's DASH buses to connect to the DC metro, five more years commuting daily via metro alone, and often used the WMATA 30 series buses and DDOT Circulator to get to places along Wisconsin Ave. or near Dupont. Had a car but it was for trips to Shenandoah or back to Michigan. I've also lived car-free for two years while abroad. Now I walk to work in Philly.

[bust]

Why? This makes zero sense.

DYes posters have never ridden buses? Has anyone posting here actually lived in an urban area? I suspect I'm one of the few people here who has lived car-free.

I've lived car free much longer than I've owned a car. I've only ever owned a car in Detroit, once I was old enough. I'm a huge advocate of mass transit.

I fully support investing in buses if that's all that's possible and where it makes sense. But from a customer experience point of view they are the worst option. Almost anything else is better, including bike shares and pedicabs [[only half-kidding).

In New York you're never more than a couple blocks from a bus route, even in distant neighborhoods. They blanket the city. If a subway doesn't serve a location there are always buses that do. But if that's where I'm going I don't take them. I opt for a car service or taxi instead. I've lived in NYC a long time and haven't been on a NYC bus in about 10 years. Since moving here, excluding a few months when my commute crossed Central Park and a bus or a taxi was the only option, I've probably averaged less than one NYC bus ride a year. I try not to ride buses and generally don't unless I'm visiting a city where they're the only viable transit. On the other hand I probably average about two NYC subway rides a day.

Subways are almost always much faster, of course, but that's not the only reason. When I ride most buses the combination of the rattling windows, the diesel fumes, all the stopping and starting, the bouncing and swerving, and the generally unpleasant ride makes me mildly sick. On buses it can be difficult to get away from aspects you may encounter you don't want pressing against you. I feel more trapped. They're also much harder to keep clean. I don't have these problems riding a subway, a streetcar, light rail, or a train.

Someone I'm friendly with is in a long term relationship with a NYC bus driver. She said after hearing all the stories about what happens in the relative privacy of a bus seat she refuses to ride one. She takes a subway to work.

Just an anecdote, but clearly I'm not the only one who feels the way I do.

Here are the most recent NYC ridership numbers for subways and buses:

NYC subways saw 1,762,565,419 paying customers in 2015 and the trend has been increasing for years.
NYC buses saw 776,080,306 in 2015 and the numbers have been declining for years.

There were nearly a billion more subway rides.

Those numbers include express buses which are almost comparable to a subway in speed. Despite the fact that buses offer much better coverage people are clearly more happy to walk farther to take a subway. Or maybe they hire a car or decide they're better off owning one of their own. At least that's true of people like me.

Of course the NYC subway system is the most comprehensive one in the US. It was a wise investment. It serves us very well.

I support expanding bus service in Detroit. It needs better coverage, more frequent service, and more express lines or bus rapid transit.

But if you're a developer I clearly understand why you'd prefer to build near a street car or better yet a subway. Like others have said, they attract riders who avoid buses. And for many developers those are the target customers they want.

[Gistok]

Why? This makes zero sense.

DYes posters have never ridden buses? Has anyone posting here actually lived in an urban area? I suspect I'm one of the few people here who has lived car-free.

It only makes zero sense to you. Most people here HAVE ridden buses in the past... and that alone would explain why they would much prefer to ride the Q-Line in the future. Count me among them.

Is that so hard to comprehend?

[drjeff]

A streetcar is a low capacity transit system, analogous to buses, but without the flexibility. They can be used in urban, dense areas, but are more commonly used for secondary corridors, whether city or suburb.

The capacity of the Qline cars is 125 passengers "comfortably" and many more possible during a busy period. A city bus is not even close to that.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...rail/90786964/

[Bham1982]

The capacity of the Qline cars is 125 passengers "comfortably" and many more possible during a busy period. A city bus is not even close to that.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...rail/90786964/

Not true. Cities around the world run articulated buses on major routes, which usually have 120+ capacity.

In contrast, typical heavy rail systems usually carry 500+ [[and sometimes 1000+) passengers.

And in Detroit, the streetcars will run less than the existing bus service. However the streetcar fares, it won't match ridership on busy bus routes elsewhere.

[douglasm]

Are there any rumblings on a further buildout?

In Seattle, Link light rail has spurred building in areas it serves, or is planning to serve. It's a reletively new thing out here, and has caught on like wildfire in a city that's very difficult to get around by car.

[dtowncitylover]

Are there any rumblings on a further buildout?

As been said many times before, no. The private investors have always said they're not in it to run a transit system, they want it under RTA control. And until this happens, QLine will be what it is.

[professorscott]

As been said many times before, no. The private investors have always said they're not in it to run a transit system, they want it under RTA control. And until this happens, QLine will be what it is.

Spot on, Dtown, and I'll add to it. A streetcar is not a regional transit panacea, as others have pointed out. Additional buildout is possible - most likely under an RTA, but it's conceivable without that - but only within densely populated [[by residents, workers, visitors, whatever) areas and over short distances. My long-term vision for streetcars is that they serve various routes into and out of downtown, let's say along Jefferson or Gratiot or Michigan or Fort, or my favorite - East Jefferson - and then maybe one or two inner-suburban streetcars, perhaps one mimicking what Ferndale is trying to do with that streetcar-looking shuttle bus, only with better service parameters.

Streetcars aren't going to be built to serve regional transit needs because that's not their niche. If you want excellent Detroit to Birmingham transit, or Detroit to Mt. Clemens, or whatever, the solution is going to be something faster and with fewer stops, be that some kind of rapid-ish bus, or light rail, or commuter rail, or whatever. Streetcars fill an important niche, and [[former State Senator and current SMART CEO) John Hertel picked an excellent corridor for the first one here. [[Note to anyone who doesn't like Mr. Hertel: feel free not to like him, but it is beyond argument that he selected the corridor for QLine, including where it would stop and start to within a couple hundred feet, about ten years ago. I was in the room with him at the time.)

Excellent conversation! I hope it keeps going.