What's the story on this house? 2265 Boston

[vanta]

Are you looking to finance this purchase?

[masterblaster]

To CRAWFORD,

Can someone please confirm his claim that the East Boston-Arden Park Districti is "half-gone"? Dude, WHAT ARE TALKING ABOUT!?!?!

I have walked through and drove through the neigbhorhood over the last 8 years, and I have not seen these demolitions or any evidence of them. Many of the houses on the Arden Park side are built on 100 wide lots [[and wider), as opposed to most Boston-Edison houses which are on 50-foot wide lots.

[48202]

For the record, I know people who own homes and live in Arden Park, Boston-Edison, and University District. These are all livable neighborhoods.

But of course, I don't know what I'm talking about. I've only lived here for 12 years.

[masterblaster]

To Crawford, Fury13, and Lorax:

One more troubling thing about the crime issue:

Fury 13 and Lorax says the neighborhood will not get any safer in the next 5, 10, or 20 years. How about this: the neigbhorhood will never get any safer and will get worse!
Why: everybody's solution is to flee the neighborhood when crime increases or avoid it at all costs. A neighborhood is never going to get better if all the good people flee or are discouraged from moving in!

The police serve the community, and its effectiveness is a reflection of the community. DOESN'T IF MAKE SENSE, that if people move into Boston-Edison, and these same people have high expectations of the police to protect and serve them, and in turn elect government officials [[mayor, council, etc) who will work to provide them that, then the police will improve, and safety will as well.

But if you discourage good people from moving to Boston-Edison, and encourage residents to move out to the suburbs, how it is possible that the neigbhorhood will ever rebound? It will never get better not in 5, 10, 20, or 50 years.

My question to Crawford & iheartthed - all of those NY neighborhoods that have gentrified over the years. They were at one time dangerous - how did they rebound?

[EastsideAl]

As someone who grew up in Indian Village, and lives in the area, I have to say that the crime situation in neighborhoods like the Village and B-E is waaay over-billed. Particularly since crime is in these areas is well below what it was in the 70s and 80s, and is certainly nowhere near as bad as the crack boom years of the late '80s.

Having said that, living in Detroit, as in many urban areas, means being cognizant of crime and taking measures to avoid it. It also means, unfortunately, that if you live in these areas at some point you will probably experience being a victim of crime, most often something petty like a car break-in. But there are people here who make it sound like almost no one survives living in these neighborhoods, which is clearly untrue as thousands of people live in these places [[and I survived living there too!).

I've known a number of people over the years who've lived in the Boston-Edison area. The neighborhood was effectively split in two many years ago by the building of the Lodge Freeway. The area to the east of the freeway contains more of the large mansions and breathtaking homes that the neighborhood is most known for. It has remained a racially mixed neighborhood. The area west of the freeway has beautiful but more modest homes. It was also much closer to, and not cut off from, the 1967 riot area. It has been a primarily African-American middle class neighborhood for decades. All this has meant that the prices of houses west of the Lodge have been generally lower than those to the east. I have no idea if the crime rate is lower in one part of the neighborhood or the other, or if it's relatively the same.

[Lorax]

What's missing in this discussion is that no one disputes that political change will ultimately lead to better police protection, city services, etc.

But with the completely whacked out property tax structure and lack of any measurable city services, it will be a couple of decades before any obvious improvements come. It can be done, with vigilance and a concerted effort by residents, but that's alot like herding cats- difficult to do.

I still think the neighborhoods with better architecture should be gated and contained with regard to security, garbage collection, etc.- the city really needs to let go of these areas and let residents run them, which can only be an improvement over what's been allowed to happen to them over the years.

I did look up that house posted earlier in the thread, and it's taxes were low compared to others in the area, but that too will reset with a new owner.

In my case, I am not in town for months on end, so leaving a property without any real police protection is not an option. It's too hard managing a property long distance which is literally a sitting duck without 24 hour security.

[EastsideAl]

What's missing in this discussion is that no one disputes that political change will ultimately lead to better police protection, city services, etc.

Actually, I do somewhat. Given the city's financial situation, and the lack of an economy which is what led to that situation, together with the bleeding out of a population and a tax base, there's really only so much that any combination of mayor and council can do for the near future.

[Bong-Man]

A security question, if I may....

In neighborhoods like Indian Village, do the owners pay for security thru a special assessment on their local taxes...or is this done independently by each home owner ? The reason I ask is it seemed the $9,000 tax bill on the $99,000 home on the other thread seemed quite high. I'm wondering if that included the tab for security patrols beyond DPD.

[Retroit]

Here's a crime map for Detroit: http://www.spotcrime.com/mi/detroit

[[I'm not suggesting it proves or disproves anyone's personal assessment of crime levels. Just FYI.)

[Lorax]

I don't know about Indian Village and how they handle it, but having been looking in BE for a couple of years, I discovered that you need to pay DSS [[a private security patrol) extra per month to monitor your home twice a day. Or you can of course install a monitoring system separately, fencing, what ever works well. Basically there is no benefit to paying the higher tax rates, you don't get anything for it. You're on your own.

[EastsideAl]

A security question, if I may....

In neighborhoods like Indian Village, do the owners pay for security thru a special assessment on their local taxes...or is this done independently by each home owner ? The reason I ask is it seemed the $9,000 tax bill on the $99,000 home on the other thread seemed quite high. I'm wondering if that included the tab for security patrols beyond DPD.

That's just property taxes [[part of what Lorax refers to as a "whacked out tax structure"). The property tax structure in the State of Michigan is rather odd and byzantine, and Detroit has a much higher than average millage [[i.e. property tax rate) and a very inconsistent and somewhat capricious assessment system. The point is well taken that Detroiters pay a lot for often poor city services. Of course, those who criticize Detroit taxes, and call for lower taxes while also calling for more services, never really make clear how this could be achieved in a city that is losing population, housing, and housing value very quickly.

In Indian Village we also paid association fees to the neighborhood organization. These sometimes would include a private security patrol, although for a long time the neighborhood determined the safety benefits gained were negligible for the money it cost us and did not hire special security.

[dcmorrison12]

I highly recommend that anyone interested in this area buy within the next couple years. It's a gorgeous neighborhood, quick access to mass transit, close to freeways and has room to play with your kids - not to mention the amazing prices for the fantastic homes. BUT, the real kicker is - you should buy into this area soon because once the rail line is constructed, the prices will shoot up. You'll miss your opportunity if you don't buy in now. If you do buy in now, you could make a lot of money in the future.

Once the rail is put in - you'll see an increase of population in the neighborhood, gentrification, new construction, more jobs. Essentially, the crime rate will drop. Just look to the future and quit worrying about what the pessimists say. There's a future around here, don't worry.

[crawford]

My question to Crawford & iheartthed - all of those NY neighborhoods that have gentrified over the years. They were at one time dangerous - how did they rebound?

In NYC, immgration, gentrification, and a citywide housing shortage shifted attention to poorer areas.

Detroit doesn't get much immigration or gentrification, and has a housing glut, not a shortage, so the potential path to recovery would likely be different.

[Lorax]

In NYC, immgration, gentrification, and a citywide housing shortage shifted attention to poorer areas.

Detroit doesn't get much immigration or gentrification, and has a housing glut, not a shortage, so the potential path to recovery would likely be different.

But the better housing stock, brick/mortar neighborhoods will be head of the line with regard to gentrification. There are fewer of these neighborhoods in Detroit than there are neighborhoods of totally frame construction.

But, until you can safely install a new toilet and plumbing without it being ripped out overnight, then it's a moot point.

[Bong-Man]

Thanks Al & Lorax.

[iheartthed]

My question to Crawford & iheartthed - all of those NY neighborhoods that have gentrified over the years. They were at one time dangerous - how did they rebound?

It's complicated, but what I will say is that those areas wouldn't have rebounded without a solid mass transit system. From what I have read, it seems like NYC had a much more coordinated approach to reviving itself than Detroit has been doing. NYC focused it's revival efforts on the public squares along Broadway in Manhattan, which were coincidentally major transit hubs in the subway network [[Union Square, Times Square, Columbus Circle). In the 1980s and early 1990s, Times Square used to be a porn and crack haven. Now it's a corporate and tourism mecca. The city of New York lured large corporations like Ernst & Young, Morgan Stanley and Lehman Bros. [[RIP) to set up the HQs in Times Square, and the Times Square subway station is the central component to the entire NYC transit system. [[NYC also did something similar on the east side of Manhattan around Grand Central terminal, getting JP Morgan, PwC, Citi, UBS and other large corps to set up HQs or large operations around the station.)

Take Central Harlem for instance, much of which is centered around the 2 and 3 subway line that goes express directly into Times Square. It takes no more than 20 minutes on most days to get from any subway station along the 2/3 line in Central Harlem, to nearly any office in Times Square. So when workers began to get priced out of places like Hell's Kitchen [[the neighborhood directly to the west of Times Square, which was also a big ghetto back in the 1980s), and the areas of the Upper West Side of Manhattan [[the neighborhood directly above West Midtown), then Harlem became the next logical location. Harlem at one point was nearly as emptied out as Detroit. I've read that as recently as the mid to early 1990s, it was below 70% capacity but now it's somewhere near 95%.

If you look at the areas of Brooklyn that quickly gentrified, it was a similar thing. Williamsburg is a direct shot on the L train from Union Square [[which is one of the Broadway squares). Park Slope and Fort Greene are right next to the largest transit hub in Brooklyn, and it is a straight shot to both Wall Street and Midtown from there. Clinton Hill and Bed Stuy are along the A and C line, which is also a very quick commute to the Wall St. area.

ETA: How this bodes for Detroit? I dunno. The Woodward line would be a start, I guess. Something else they could do is try implementing a business district around Michigan Central, like NYC did with Grand Central. That would seem to be the quickest route to get the ball moving, since the tracks are already there for the train service to MCS [[thus you don't immediately need a subway system), and there is a lot of open land in the area. Workers could catch a train directly to MCS, walk to work and take the train back home.

[French777]

Dcmorrision12....Thanks for saying exactly what I was thinking!! Sometimes I feel we are the only 2 optimistic people on this forum. I believe the entire Woodward Corridor will improve dramatically when light rail is put in place.

As a side note... Living in Rochester/Rochester Hills my whole life. These homes in B-E are simply Beautiful! I live in a neighborhood with tall trees and nice houses [[Not one of those Pulte neighborhoods that are found elsewhere in Rochester/Rochester Hills) but my neighborhood is no match the beauty of B-E.

[EastsideAl]

Having lived in both Williamsburg and Park Slope in Brooklyn I have no doubt that transit is part of the equation in the revival and growth of these neighborhood, but hardly the whole story. One should keep in mind that the whole ethos and history of public transit use is very different in NYC from anywhere else in the country, and extremely different from auto-centric midwestern cities [[Chicago being a partial exception). While I strongly support expanded transit in Detroit, including a return to light rail, I hardly see it as something that will solve all of, or even many of, the problems of Detroit neighborhoods.

The main drivers behind neighborhood revival in NYC were a strong and diversified local economy, a continuing large inflow of people [[both immigrants and those coming from elsewhere in the U.S.), a hard core of people deeply committed to an urban and non-suburban lifestyle whatever its inconveniences, a relatively well preserved stock of well-built homes and apartment buildings that were very likely to hold or increase in value, and, very importantly, a large community of artists and other adventurous young creative people who were willing to move into neighborhoods in search of lower housing costs that others perceived as difficult and even frightening to live in. Detroit, alas, whatever its strengths, has few of these conditions.

[Detwa]

Are you looking to finance this purchase?

Yes, I would finance, and I have a small downpayment so if it was truly going for $50k, I should be able to get it even with the current tough market. You'd think they would be anxious to get someone in there to love it and take care of it.

It's such a gorgeous home on the outside. I love those old brick homes, you just don't see that type of beauty in new construction. My kids are almost all out of the house now but I would love to retire in a beautiful home like that and have it full of grandchildren! Too bad I couldn't have gotten something like when my kids were young to grow up in it, but back then it would have been probably 200k, I remember looking in this neighborhood years ago and it was WAY out of my reach. That's why its shocking to see this available now, I can't believe one of the neighbors hasn't snatched it up for a relative or friend, just to keep it in good condition.

[dcmorrison12]

EastsideAl -

Your explanation of how NYC gentrified parts of itself was rather reassuring. Everything that you listed off - transit, local artists, a return to urban lifestyle / living and housing stock are surely reasons for the revival of those areas - plus I'm sure there are other reasons.

The reason I am reassured is because Detroit DOES have all of this.
-Transit IS coming to Woodward Avenue, up to 8 mile.
-Detroit has a growing local/underground artist population culture
-There is a movement, however small or large, of living in a convenient, sustainable urban lifestyle.
-And, need I mention the abundance of housing stock - some unsuitable for habitation but tons are suitable for rehab.

Of course it's important to state that Detroit's "movement" is smaller than what happened in NYC - however what's important is that IT'S HERE, and happening. I'm sure it will grow and become more prevalent.

I'm not worried. It's time for my generation to start making the necessary changes and it's starting to happen. We are the ones with the good ideas, the RIGHT ideas and the old "get the hell out and never look back" mentality will slowly die - or else SE Michigan will continue to die off

[Bearinabox]

Dcmorrision12....Thanks for saying exactly what I was thinking!! Sometimes I feel we are the only 2 optimistic people on this forum. I believe the entire Woodward Corridor will improve dramatically when light rail is put in place.

But this house isn't on the Woodward corridor. Nobody is going to get off the light rail at Woodward and walk to 14th, especially since Boston is cut off at the Lodge. If they built light rail on the Fenkell or Linwood lines [[contain your laughter), that might help the western edge of B-E rebound, but I don't think a rail line on Woodward would be close enough to have much of an effect one way or the other.

[dcmorrison12]

Statistically, Transit has a direct effect on an area within 1/2 square mile [[which is considered walking distance). I'm not sure how far away 14th is from woodward however.

[skyl4rk]

From that neighborhood, which direction will the residents take the transit system to employment?

[Bearinabox]

Statistically, Transit has a direct effect on an area within 1/2 square mile [[which is considered walking distance). I'm not sure how far away 14th is from woodward however.

Google Maps says 1.5 miles. As I said, you can't cross the Lodge at Boston--you have to walk a block south to Chicago and go across and then back up. If I lived in that house and was taking transit to work, I'd use the Fenkell bus, light rail or no.

[Danny]

In The ghettohoods of Detroit, houses that are historically beautiful to be well kept up will be looted soon. Since crime is the norm in the ghetto, property values decline. It's like selling a your once 4 to 6 bedroom tudor or victorian to a DEAD [[C)KRAK HEAD and turn it into a drug house in minutes. An urban studies professor from University of Houston contended that as along as real estate brokers and developers start selling the older and almost historical dwellings to the poor and low-income families, they would tend to mess up house up and property values will decline.

Such beautiful historical homes in Detroit are in the middle of big Black ghetto; and its one of urban symptoms when white folks leave Detroit behind for 'suburbantopia.'