F the city of Detroit Unions

[jt1]

Once again they are failing to give concession:
http://freep.com/article/20090819/NE...s-new-job-cuts

A few things jump out.
1. Do they realize that their contracts will be voided if the city goes bankrupt?
2. Do they realize that the city is to supply services, not jobs.
3. Do they realize that the services they provide are laughable at best.

This quote is really sad, “When you kill the services it has a trickle down effect,� Johnson said. “The people of Detroit are the ones who will suffer and even more will start to leave the city. There goes more of your tax base.�

If Thomas Johnson II, president of AFSCME Local 2920, really gave a damn about the city, residents and tax base he and his fellow leadership would hold the members accountable to perform their work, concern themselves with the needs of the citizens and the city.

I've had it with these worthless leeches that think the city owes them jobs and in turn they owe nobody any level of service.

Too bad I couldn't get out of work early to go mock the protesters for the shitty services they provide.

[croweblack]

jt1,

you do realize that in order for the city to go bankrupt, the unions have to act like this?

I think most sane people want the city to go bankrupt so all the crap and inefficiencies will be exposed[[just like the DPS).

and

an anti-union rant around here goes over about as well as a fart in church.

Most people think that that the guy with barely a high school education should be getting paid 18$ an hour to work for the water department[[ I use the word WORK very cautiously)

So I am very happy that the unions are run by complete and utter idiots.

[jt1]

jt1,

you do realize that in order for the city to go bankrupt, the unions have to act like this?

I think most sane people want the city to go bankrupt so all the crap and inefficiencies will be exposed[[just like the DPS)..

Very good point.

[MCP-001]

Yeah, that'll win you over some converts, real quick!

[jt1]

Yeah, that'll win you over some converts, real quick!

Not really looking for converts. Just venting about unions insiting on top dollar, large number of jobs while having no accountability to the citizens. Acting like they give a shit about the citizens or the services they provide is the biggest joke imaginable.

[MCP-001]

Not really looking for converts. Just venting about unions insiting on top dollar, large number of jobs while having no accountability to the citizens. Acting like they give a shit about the citizens or the services they provide is the biggest joke imaginable.

I don't disagree with what you said, just how things were said.

And I agree, having the City of Detroit going into receivership and an emergency financial manager appointed will do wonders to changing things around.

Just look at what Robert Bobb has done with the DPS...

[R8RBOB]

I'm going to flip this a bit so if anybody find fault with my words, try not to flame too much.....

Let's say once upon a time ago, these city workers were once Detroit residents that were paying income taxes to the city, property taxes and years ago the state threw out the requirement that if you were a city employee, you had to live in the city so a number of the city employees decided to leave, relocate to the suburbs and at the same time keep their jobs.

Not to say they are the reason the city is broke but the employees joining others leaving the city didn't help. Years later, with the tax base at a alltime low, these same employees are clueless as to why the city doesn't have the money to pay them.

When the Michigan Legislature voted to get rid of city reqirements laws and Engler signed into law, the cops, the firemen, the waterworks workers, the city hall workers couldn't wait to hit the border for life outside the city. I don't blame them for leaving but someone has to clue them in on how a city works.

[Lorax]

Not really looking for converts. Just venting about unions insiting on top dollar, large number of jobs while having no accountability to the citizens. Acting like they give a shit about the citizens or the services they provide is the biggest joke imaginable.

Where do you get this "top dollar" stuff? The disparity in incomes in this country has been stretched to laughable lengths.

The CEO of Goldman Sachs makes 4 million per week.

An good attorney charges 300 bucks per hour for advice.

And you're carping that 18 bucks an hour [[before taxes) for city workers is out of line? How about 50 bucks? Even that disparity is ridiculous, but at least keeps people above the poverty level.

Unions exist for a reason- to keep the rich and entitled from driving down wages to third-world levels. I guess 50 cents an hour would be more in keeping with your ideals.

[jt1]

Where do you get this "top dollar" stuff? The disparity in incomes in this country has been stretched to laughable lengths.

The CEO of Goldman Sachs makes 4 million per week.

An good attorney charges 300 bucks per hour for advice.

And you're carping that 18 bucks an hour [[before taxes) for city workers is out of line? How about 50 bucks? Even that disparity is ridiculous, but at least keeps people above the poverty level.

Unions exist for a reason- to keep the rich and entitled from driving down wages to third-world levels. I guess 50 cents an hour would be more in keeping with your ideals.

Surely you're intelligent enough to infer that I was speaking about top dollar for their positions. There was no attempt to imply 'top dollar' as a measure across all fields and profession.

As for " I guess 50 cents an hour would be more in keeping with your ideals." you are just proving how irrational union types can be when discussing this. I believe that unions still have a place in society but I believe that the unions in Detroit , especially the AFSCME has turned into an impediment to moving forward.

Your lovely unions have insisting that the city keep bus drivers that have caused multipel accidents costing the city millions in settlements [[hell, they even fought to keep a woman behind the wheel after she killed someone). Your lovely unions have fought to keep a non-profit from using and maintaining a facility that the city does not staff [[because it might cost future jobs - the whole Greening of Detroit debacle), garbage workers [[who typically do a decent job) that refuse to get out of their trucks to pick up trash that comes out of courville containers when they are being dumped..

As i've said all along, if the unions allowed the dead weight to be cut and used their heads instead of claiming 'solidarity' to support and fight for the wosrt of the wosrt I would be a little more sympathetic. If the workers even gave the impression that they would make any effort to do anything beyond what is spelled out in their contract I would be a little more sympathetic.

Unions support the worst and fight the city to retain the positions for the dead weight. Unfortunately, this may represent a small piece of the union and the smaller percentage fo union workers but that is the image they represent to many of us.

With this said, I will freely admit much of/most of the blame lies with elected officials and mismanagement. This does not change my opinion that from the unions I have worked with there is more concern for jobs than delivering services.

Now just to be a smartass I would like to know how AFSCME local 207 can be taken seriously when they have a link to the BAMN website on their homepage.

[Buy American]

Not really looking for converts. Just venting about unions insiting on top dollar, large number of jobs while having no accountability to the citizens. Acting like they give a shit about the citizens or the services they provide is the biggest joke imaginable.

Accountability??? Ask a firefighter who was up for 24 hours, risking his life putting out fires set by the thugs of Detroit. Ask a firefighter who gets shot at when they are trying to put a fire out in a neighborhood. Ask a firefighter who has to purchase his/her own batteries for a city issued flashlight because the City won't provide them. Ask a firefighter who has to sleep in a fire house that has no working toilet....are you saying they don't give a shit?

If you live in Detroit and have a fire or an emergency in your house, please call someone else if you're so against the union employee...after all, a firefighter belongs to the union!

The other very few incidents you are speaking of do not reflect the majority of City of Detroit union workers, whether they are AFSCME or DPFFA.

[jt1]

Accountability??? Ask a firefighter who was up for 24 hours, risking his life putting out fires set by the thugs of Detroit. Ask a firefighter who gets shot at when they are trying to put a fire out in a neighborhood. Ask a firefighter who has to purchase his/her own batteries for a city issued flashlight because the City won't provide them. Ask a firefighter who has to sleep in a fire house that has no working toilet....are you saying they don't give a shit?

If you live in Detroit and have a fire or an emergency in your house, please call someone else if you're so against the union employee...after all, a firefighter belongs to the union!

The other very few incidents you are speaking of do not reflect the majority of City of Detroit union workers, whether they are AFSCME or DPFFA.

Your condescending bs aside I consistently state that I do not include Police or Fire in these discussions as they are unstaffed and underpaid.

I have also made it clear that one of my issues is that the unions hurt themselves by protecting the worst of the worst and that reflects poorly on the majority that do a good job.

Would you like me quote myself on these specific items or would you like to actually read the follow up comments?

[Buy American]

Not really looking for converts. Just venting about unions insiting on top dollar, large number of jobs while having no accountability to the citizens. Acting like they give a shit about the citizens or the services they provide is the biggest joke imaginable.

I must have missed the part where you say you aren't including Police and Fire in your discussions.

"but I believe that the unions in Detroit , especially the AFSCME has turned into an impediment to moving forward." ....is this statement excluding Police and Fire?

If you feel I was condescending, you're probably right....I'm sick and tired of the unions getting a bad rap for all the woes in today's economy. I started a thread "A few reasons" which linked about 4 stories concerning the City of Detroit and it's lack of accountibility which is a major cause why Detroit is in the financial situation it's in today. Sorry if you don't like my attitude.

[jt1]

I must have missed the part where you say you aren't including Police and Fire in your discussions.

"but I believe that the unions in Detroit , especially the AFSCME has turned into an impediment to moving forward." ....is this statement excluding Police and Fire?

Nope, this is the quote "Beyond critical services [[Police, fire, who are understaffed) many of the other services should be cut. I wish it weren't the case but it is economic reality". So I may not have been as clear about it as I should have been. I have however stated to you in many past discussions about unions. I have held to the fact that police and fire are underpaid and understaffed.

So again:

1. Police and Fire: Necessary and underpaid
2. Many/most union workers work hard but are paid well for the work they do [[not paid well compared to CEOs, etc).
3. The unions protect the worst and this reflects poorly on the rest of the workers.
4. The union leadership is as incompetent as the city leadership and both are driving this city to bankruptcy. The union leadership is too stubborn or stupid to see that this is not in their best interests.
5. I believe that union leadership and many union leaders care about the union and don't give a shit about the city
6. Just because city leadship has wasted money does not mean that the unions have played no role in the demise of the city.
7. Unions have an important place in society but what they have become is hurting them more than helping them [[see declining enrollment, general dislike of unions outside of the midwest)

Is that clear enough for you?

[jt1]

If you feel I was condescending, you're probably right....I'm sick and tired of the unions getting a bad rap for all the woes in today's economy. I started a thread "A few reasons" which linked about 4 stories concerning the City of Detroit and it's lack of accountibility which is a major cause why Detroit is in the financial situation it's in today. Sorry if you don't like my attitude.

Interesting, I'm sick of the unions indifference towards the city [[or the company in the private sector), exclsuing police and fire [[we can include some police officers but not the union as a whole.

I don't disagree that the city has a lack of accountability to it's citizens and has resulted in much waste. Does that excuse the unions lack of accountability to the city and it's waste? The argument of 'well, you did it too' shoudl stop working beyond grade school.

I'm not sorry if you dn't like my attitude. I have seen and dealt with too much indifference from union workers in the city. They are as bad as the incompetent elected officials. The difference is I am comfortable admitting that both are inadequate and hurt the city. You insist on your deluded belief that management is an evil monster whereas the unions are angelic in their dealings and every union members works as hard as possible and gives a shit about the city.

Maybe if you lived in the city you would see the indifference of many of the union employees as well as the indifference of city government. Your argument of extremes shows that you don't view this topic rationally.

[Buy American]

Interesting, I'm sick of the unions indifference towards the city [[or the company in the private sector), exclsuing police and fire [[we can include some police officers but not the union as a whole.

I don't disagree that the city has a lack of accountability to it's citizens and has resulted in much waste. Does that excuse the unions lack of accountability to the city and it's waste? The argument of 'well, you did it too' shoudl stop working beyond grade school.

I'm not sorry if you dn't like my attitude. I have seen and dealt with too much indifference from union workers in the city. They are as bad as the incompetent elected officials. The difference is I am comfortable admitting that both are inadequate and hurt the city. You insist on your deluded belief that management is an evil monster whereas the unions are angelic in their dealings and every union members works as hard as possible and gives a shit about the city.

Maybe if you lived in the city you would see the indifference of many of the union employees as well as the indifference of city government. Your argument of extremes shows that you don't view this topic rationally.

"I have seen and dealt with too much indifference from union workers in the city."

That pretty much sums it up for me. I look at things from a different angle.

Have you devoted 35 years of employment to the City of Detroit? Do you belong to a union? Do you even work for the City of Detroit? Do you even live in Detroit?

I did all of the above. I gave the City my loyalty, my efforts, and in many instances almost my life for 35years. I was employed there and the union was there to negotiate fair contracts for me and thousands of others. I saw times when I thought the union was wrong protecting a drunk employee or fighting for a fired worker; but those instances were so few and far between that it doesn't even show up on the radar. But, since you've appointed yourself as the expert on unions and union business in the City of Detroit, I'll leave it to you.

[Patrick]

The union folks care about themselves. Imagine Detroit being like the Titanic when it was sinking. Everyone all frantic on the deck looking for anything to hold onto when it goes under. That is what the union folks are doing...watching out for themselves on a sinking ship.

[luckycar]

When I worked for the City of Ann Arbor,1980-2007,maybe 20 % of the city workers lived in the city.We made a good wage,we just couldn't afford to live in Ann Arbor.We did ,and they still do provide good value to the citizens,taxpayers.I worked at the wastewater treatment plant,not the nicest place when its 90+ outside,or -10.Our AFSCME local couldn't strike,nor threaten to.That was on page one of our contract.Of course I would have been under a court order to report to work due to the need to keep the public from getting sick.Detroits workers need to wise up.It took the UAW 20 years and tens of thousands of job losses to wake up.

[DetroitPlanner]

R8RBob, I am in 1,000 percent agreement. When the layoffs come, residency should be factored into the decision of who stays and who goes, after all, if the City forced the casinos and other economic generators to hire X percentages of Detroit workers, they should live by their own standard. Workers should not be sucking the City dry without contributing something in terms of taxes or vitality to the neighborhoods.

[mwilbert]

If workers in the city unions are not doing their jobs, shame on them, but their managers need to take some responsibility too. If you don't discipline people who aren't doing their jobs properly, then a lot of people will take advantage of you.

I have seen these types of disciplinary procedures in government, though not in Detroit specifically, and the ones I have seen are annoying but not impossible to navigate. Further, if the procedures are too difficult to follow [[which I doubt; painful isn't the same as impossible) then the rules need to be renegotiated.

In the end, the mismanagement of the city encompasses the mismanagement of the workforce and just blaming the unions doesn't accurately apportion the blame. Even so,the behavior of the union leaders would seem to indicate that they do not understand that the city is headed toward receivership, and how that is likely to affect their membership.

[lilpup]

Actually I think they do understand the city is in trouble. The issue is that they'll be treated more fairly by the courts than by corrupt, self-serving, money-sucking non-union city management.

The unions gave back during KK's administration, they've given back before and they're being asked to again, while there is little cost-cutting going on with others.

[Lowell]

There is plenty of blame to go around. The union workers could get paid minimum wage and the city would still be in the hole. The core problem is that the older inner cities are stuck caring for almost all the homeless, poor, disabled, felons and ex-felons in the metro who, in turn, cannot/do mpy pay taxes but cost taxes. Spread that burden evenly across the metro and Detroit would recover quickly.

[jt1]

There is plenty of blame to go around. The union workers could get paid minimum wage and the city would still be in the hole. The core problem is that the older inner cities are stuck caring for almost all the homeless, poor, disabled, felons and ex-felons in the metro who, in turn, cannot/do mpy pay taxes but cost taxes. Spread that burden evenly across the metro and Detroit would recover quickly.

Agree 100%.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "Spread that burden evenly across the metro and Detroit would recover quickly."

LOL, that would be ww4.

[Lowell]

^Exactly. "Hit the Road for 8 Mile" was big hit. That other route is to subsidize the older intercities to the point of making them attractive. That would only be WW3.

[karl jr.]

1. Do they realize that their contracts will be voided if the city goes bankrupt?
2. Do they realize that the city is to supply services, not jobs.
3. Do they realize that the services they provide are laughable at best.

1. No we are all stupid fuckers!
2. No we are all totally incompetent, about as incompetent as Bing for putting the same financial people in charge that fucked things up to begin with.
3. About as laughable as the idiot citizens of Detroit who continuously elect people on name recognition and not on the basis that they just may know what the hell they are doing.

What part of the fact that if you got rid of all of us idiot civil servants and got people to do the job for free the deficit will still be there. Not do to my incompetence, but do to to the incompetent elected officials.

I and my wife have worked for the city for 26 years each and we both are on the layoff list, we both have done the best job possible with what we are given to work with. I live in the city and have done so for over 50 years.
I am tired of being told that my life has been a waste because I decided to make a career working for the city, I feel that way when you blame me for something I have not a damn thing to do with. When its all set and done I will tell you that I will be glad to pick up and move the hell away from Detroit. Then you can blame yourself.