Regional transit -- stick a fork in it

[ABetterDetroit]

Maybe Hackel actually gives a shit about Warren. It is the third largest city in the state and in his county.

55 mills is already smothering Warren's appreciation rate and cranking it higher will only make it worse. A bunch of motor coaches won't help that in the real world. Next the flight steepens, everything goes to hell, schools, blight, crime, ability to mortgage, population drops fast. It's not like this script hasn't played out before in this state.

Just a different theory. He is a democrat after all, he might give damn about his constituents. He sure doesn't like the idiot running Warren these days and that says something about his intelligence.

[bust]

Let's face it: people from Armada and Romeo want little or nothing to do with Detroit. Those towns aren't even exurbs. They have more in common with St. Clair. Or Bad Axe. It's unfortunate their votes count the same when it comes to matters such as this one that necessarily primarily affects Detroit and its suburbs. And for them I guess it's unfortunate their county is tied up in the dealings of Metro Detroit.

Too bad we can't re-shape the county maps to group people in ways that make more sense.

[313WX]

Let's face it: people from Armada and Romeo want little or nothing to do with Detroit. Those towns aren't even exurbs. They have more in common with St. Clair. Or Bad Axe. It's unfortunate their votes count the same when it comes to matters such as this one that necessarily primarily affects Detroit and its suburbs. And for them I guess it's unfortunate their county is tied up in the dealings of Metro Detroit.

Too bad we can't re-shape the county maps to group people in ways that make more sense.

It's funny how that same standard doesn't seem to apply when it comes to things such as the HCMA [[which Detroiters must support even though they don't have a park within the city limits and generally don't use the other parks)...

But I digress...

[jcole]

It's funny how that same standard doesn't seem to apply when it comes to things such as the HCMA [[which Detroiters must support even though they don't have a park within the city limits and generally don't use the other parks)...

But I digress...

They do have them in their county though; every city and town throughout the coverage are doesn't have a park either.

[313WX]

They do have them in their county though; every city and town throughout the coverage are doesn't have a park either.

Well that further proves my point. As someone earlier said, those people in Macomb can't see the forest for the trees.

[jcole]

Well that further proves my point. As someone earlier said, those people in Macomb can't see the forest for the trees.

How does that prove your point? Detroit doesn't have a HCMP in it's city limits but neither does any other city in the region and they still pay the taxes. 5 counties have parks and pay taxes on it, not individual cities.

[313WX]

How does that prove your point? Detroit doesn't have a HCMP in it's city limits but neither does any other city in the region and they still pay the taxes. 5 counties have parks and pay taxes on it, not individual cities.

The folks in Macomb County seem to be of the mindset that because a bus isn't literally traveling down their block or if they're literally not "AIS" on these buses, there's no reason for them to support the RTA, even if it's for the greater good of the entire region [[as Detroiters realize by supporting the HCMA).

[jcole]

The folks in Macomb County seem to be of the mindset that because a bus isn't literally traveling down their block or if they're literally not "AIS" on these buses, there's no reason for them to support the RTA, even if it's for the greater good of the entire region [[as Detroiters realize by supporting the HCMA).

There is a park in their county within reasonable striking distance, the same as there is one in Wayne county at a reasonable distance for Detroiters to patronize. You're comparing apples to oranges with the transit. It won't be within reasonable distance for a lot of people in northern Macomb County. I don't agree with them not voting for the greater good and if I lived there I would vote for it, but I see the point of them rather having something they could use for their tax dollars. They aren't at all happy with paying for the Zoo and the DIA already, so this is one more thing for them to dissent about. Most of them would probably rather have some form of transport that takes them to Mt Clemens or Clinton Twp where many of them shop and work.
If you lived in Detroit and Pontiac was putting in a system that would stop at 10 Mile and Telegraph, you wouldn't have a lot of use for it either.

[stasu1213]

I share your frustration. Mostly, though, I'm frustrated at the RTA's campaign, which I think was pretty poorly run. Yes, easy to say in retrospect and I'm sure a lot of people worked hard on it, but I'm more critical of them than of folks like scooter.

1. The messaging focused on poor people and seniors - true enough but "give tax money for charity" is a losing message.

2. As scooter's post shows, people do not have a good understanding of the fact that they may live in regions that are impossible to serve cost-effectively with transit. Education on transit basics [[such as you point to in your post) is very badly needed. Two years of weekly public lectures. Morning show appearances. I don't know. But something.

3. No publicizing of the fact that this was a very SMALL amount of money being asked for. A little more than 1 years' budget for a major transit agency in a similar sized region, except spread over 20 years for Detroit. Present this as "getting off the ground" - future service may well come to 32 Mile or whatever but it will take more money [[see #2).

And, on the original topic, Ford had similar expense problems in Ann Arbor. His main qualification seemed to be being in charge when they passed the AATA millage, but that was in one small, deeply liberal college town. I'm sure he's a smart guy but given that this seems to be a pattern, we need to poach someone from Denver, Salt Lake City, Minneapolis, Seattle, or similar with experience getting funding for regional transit in a bigger metro.

RTA should had focused on getting commuters from Romeo Plank to downtown Detroit not only to their places of employment downtown but to sporting events, and other activities happening downtown without having to pay for high parking rates

[Bham1982]

RTA should had focused on getting commuters from Romeo Plank to downtown Detroit not only to their places of employment downtown but to sporting events, and other activities happening downtown without having to pay for high parking rates

Why should these be regional priorities? In 1950, yeah, but nowadays employment is regionally dispersed, very few exurbanites work downtown, there are no congestion issues headed downtown, and parking rates downtown are dirt cheap compared to other major cities.

You really think there's an exurban demographic wishing for more buses to take them to Detroit? Why would you typical exurban family of four wait at a bus stop in January to take them downtown to an arena event? How is that easier than taking the SUV?

Ever taken a stroller on public transit? It sucks even in the Paris-London-NYC type cities, with comprehensive transit. I can't imagine any non-poor rider would make this choice in Metro Detroit.

[Wesley Mouch]

RTA should had focused on getting commuters from Romeo Plank to downtown Detroit not only to their places of employment downtown but to sporting events, and other activities happening downtown without having to pay for high parking rates

Maybe people on Romeo Plank want to go somewhere other than where you think. Not everyone wants to go downtown.

I think regional transit is a great idea. But if we think of it as a 'downtown centric' system, we may be ignoring a lot of the population.

[[Recently, you can see what happens when you ignore the actual concerns of rural people in our Presidential choice. The next shock for the urban classes will be when PDT becomes increasingly popular. Heads will explode.)

Another problem with regional transit is that a lot of people don't trust our bureaucrats and politicians to actually invest in transit -- but instead to create featherbedding factories. Its a side-effect of affirmative action coming back via the law of unintended consequences. Affirmative action leads to resistance to suburban transit funding. Whoda thunk.

[Junjie]

Maybe people on Romeo Plank want to go somewhere other than where you think. Not everyone wants to go downtown.

I think regional transit is a great idea. But if we think of it as a 'downtown centric' system, we may be ignoring a lot of the population.

[[Recently, you can see what happens when you ignore the actual concerns of rural people in our Presidential choice. The next shock for the urban classes will be when PDT becomes increasingly popular. Heads will explode.)

Another problem with regional transit is that a lot of people don't trust our bureaucrats and politicians to actually invest in transit -- but instead to create featherbedding factories. Its a side-effect of affirmative action coming back via the law of unintended consequences. Affirmative action leads to resistance to suburban transit funding. Whoda thunk.

Poor rural people. Everything is stacked against them. For example, as we all know, the Michigan transportation budget funds gold plated subways, light rail, and buses in urban areas like Detroit while spending next to nothing on highways. And similarly, their presidential choices have to get almost as many votes as the Democrat if they even want to win the election! How unfair! And then when tax season comes around, low-earning rural people have to wait up to six weeks to get a tax refund paid for by high-earning city dwellers. Yes, it's high time we all learned from the simple wisdom of rural America and lived within our means, after adjusting our means to include ongoing subsidies from others with higher-paying jobs who we can vilify.

[Hermod]

Poor rural people. Everything is stacked against them. For example, as we all know, the Michigan transportation budget funds gold plated subways, light rail, and buses in urban areas like Detroit while spending next to nothing on highways. And similarly, their presidential choices have to get almost as many votes as the Democrat if they even want to win the election! How unfair! And then when tax season comes around, low-earning rural people have to wait up to six weeks to get a tax refund paid for by high-earning city dwellers. Yes, it's high time we all learned from the simple wisdom of rural America and lived within our means, after adjusting our means to include ongoing subsidies from others with higher-paying jobs who we can vilify.

Denver might be a case in point. They wanted regional transit. All of the suburban mayors went to bat for it and got a tax package passed by the suburban voters as well as the city voters. Problem was that the transit authority went on a hiring and spending spree and then went back to the suburban mayors and said that they didn't have enough money to finish the system and they needed additions to the tax package. Guess what the reaction from the suburban mayors was? As Wesley noted, people are very suspicious of government activities.

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[Canadian Visitor]

To me, a lot of this thread comes back to what I've said in previous threads. In many ways governance and government in the Detroit area are set up to fail; the result is predictable and taints good will towards providing greater resources.

There are too many governments in the Detroit area. Merging/consolidating etc etc. is near essential to helping harmonize interests and product more cohesive planning.

Another issue here is that the RTA, at its start is providing a level of service that won't even satisfy most low-income, captive riders, let alone woo discretionary ones.

If you're going to bother, you have to start w/the notion that during peak and near-peak travel times, service has to be every 20m or better. Empty buses be damned. No one is giving up the car to experience a 40m wait, god forbid they miss the bus.

Part of this is also a need for a state role.

GO Transit, the Toronto area's regional transit service is provincially funded and managed, with some municipal charge-backs authorized within its act.

****

I would also suggest that area-rating is an important property tax rule in counties/regions w/a distinct urban/rural divide.

It does not mean that those in rural areas won't contribute to any service, merely because they have lesser access to it. But it does set a lower millage rate to reflect, broadly, less access to services. That helps achieve buy-in.

[ParisianLesion]

I think you're trying to make this in to more than it is simply to support your position.

$19k is nothing for someone at his level and it sounds like it was due to unclear contract terms rather than a deliberate misuse of funds. This is going to have zero impact on the future, positive or negative, of the RTA or for that matter, Mr. Ford's career.

Guess I called that one wrong:

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...ford/99260324/

[Johnnny5]

Guess I called that one wrong:

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...ford/99260324/

So Mr. Ford pays back $19,000, but admits no wrongdoing and now the RTA gets to pay him over $20,000 per month for doing absolutely nothing? And at the same time they have to hire his replacement and pay his/her salary as well. I'm beginning to think the title of this thread may be more appropriate than I had thought.

[archfan]

So Mr. Ford pays back $19,000, but admits no wrongdoing and now the RTA gets to pay him over $20,000 per month for doing absolutely nothing? And at the same time they have to hire his replacement and pay his/her salary as well. I'm beginning to think the title of this thread may be more appropriate than I had thought.

They terminated him without cause; I bet his contract says they have to pay out the rest of his contract in that case. Sounds fairly standard for this type of contract. They would probably spend a lot more than the $161K building a case to terminate him with cause.

I agree with others - this seems to be more about his handling of the millage than about expenses. If I were prone to conspiracy theories, I would suggest they leaked the expenses issue to see if they could generate enough public pressure for him to resign without board action [[saving the $161K). But I'm not, so I won't.

[Hypestyles]

The RTA was a good idea while it lasted. Now it will be forever tainted as prone to "corruption", and so.. forget about any new millage proposals.

[dtowncitylover]

The RTA was a good idea while it lasted. Now it will be forever tainted as prone to "corruption", and so.. forget about any new millage proposals.

Despite no corruption taking place. But you're right, we're idiots here because the brain drain has been real because people wanted to live in functional metro areas.

[Junjie]

Letting him go now is the right move. Not a hard decision given this is a multi-year pattern of behavior. Now try to get some actual service results between now and 2018 / 2020 to show people before asking for money and trust.