Hudson's Site Building Thread

**Scottathew** · February-02-20, 09:38 AM

A huge caisson just gobbled up TWENTY-EIGHT loads of cement!

**southen** · February-02-20, 10:05 AM

Personally I would love to see Detroit take the approach that Rotterdam has post WWII. Preserve every historic building that we have, but where there is opportunity since both cities have been bombed out, one literally the other figuratively, focus on interesting designs that add to the urban fabric but also attract people to the city. We have always been a city that has put an emphasis on design, be it the auto industry or our architecture. We don't need supertalls but I would like to see things that push some limits or boundaries in design. I think Hudson's will still do this which is important.

I look forward to the day where we don't have these massive super blocks that require a herculean effort to build anything. I think Bedrock and others will be able to do much more interesting things when they are working with smaller footprints which provide less exposure financially.

**ferndalien** · February-02-20, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by 48307

A huge caisson just gobbled up TWENTY-EIGHT loads of cement!

Yes, but I think this is the thread where we complain about them not actually DOING anything.

[[worthy of note, those 28 loads were on a Saturday)

**Lowell** · February-02-20, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by 48307

A huge caisson just gobbled up TWENTY-EIGHT loads of cement!

Another fabulously fascinating video 48307. Thanks so much. The snow fall at the end gave it a serene artistic touch.

**Seven&wyo** · February-02-20, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by southen

Personally I would love to see Detroit take the approach that Rotterdam has post WWII. Preserve every historic building that we have, but where there is opportunity since both cities have been bombed out, one literally the other figuratively, focus on interesting designs that add to the urban fabric but also attract people to the city. We have always been a city that has put an emphasis on design, be it the auto industry or our architecture. We don't need supertalls but I would like to see things that push some limits or boundaries in design. I think Hudson's will still do this which is important.

I look forward to the day where we don't have these massive super blocks that require a herculean effort to build anything. I think Bedrock and others will be able to do much more interesting things when they are working with smaller footprints which provide less exposure financially.

Couldn't agree with this more

**Dmberko11** · February-02-20, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by Seven&wyo

Couldn't agree with this more

I agree with this too. Maybe one day Detroit will have its 1,000 footer. Detroit just has too much land downtown where there’s no need to go vertical or super tall. If its economy improves and the surface lots disappear then eventually it’ll happen. Focusing on quality architecture at this point is where it’s at. Don’t settle for city club apartments projects lol. I do like Detroit’s skyline where it stands but it’ll be nice to have a new view with Hudson’s and maybe the Monroe blocks eventually. We’ll see what TCF does with the joe Louis site.

**stasu1213** · February-02-20, 03:55 PM

I don't think this project or the planning of it was a bait and switch. I that red tape and having to hire 51% detroiters put a damper on the original plans. Had Bedrock been able to hire those whom have the skills who live Detroit doesn't have 51% skilled laborers living inside thee city limits so the council and others who implemented this law should get their head out of their asses and be realistic if they want to see a turnaround in this backward city called Detroit. I agree that a 900 ft building is not needed in downtown Detroit but if Bedrock was giving the greenlight to start construction on it why come in the middle of the planning stage to throw a monkey wrench in the process

**313WX** · February-02-20, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

I don't think this project or the planning of it was a bait and switch. I that red tape and having to hire 51% detroiters put a damper on the original plans. Had Bedrock been able to hire those whom have the skills who live Detroit doesn't have 51% skilled laborers living inside thee city limits so the council and others who implemented this law should get their head out of their asses and be realistic if they want to see a turnaround in this backward city called Detroit. I agree that a 900 ft building is not needed in downtown Detroit but if Bedrock was giving the greenlight to start construction on it why come in the middle of the planning stage to throw a monkey wrench in the process

Gilbert isn't new to Detroit. He was well aware of those challenges going into these projects.

That, in part, is what makes it a bait and switch.

**stinkytofu** · February-02-20, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

Gilbert isn't new to Detroit. He was well aware of those challenges going into these projects.

That, in part, is what makes it a bait and switch.

So you are 100% confident that when Gilbert got the incentives he fully intended not to build this height? If you are this sure it's a bait and switch I'd like to see some proof.

My best guess is a mix of hubris and market factors made Gilbert think the market - or at least his sheer will - could justify the building. Now with construction costs [[cost of labor, steel, etc.) making projects much more costly in Detroit - and across the US - the hard reality is setting in. Especially since they are struggling to land tenants as is and I'm guessing a little more level-headedness regarding the market set in once Gilbert unfortunately had his stroke.

We'll see though. I'd really love to hear an announcement regarding a hotel partner - feel like that'd help propel this forward.

Side note - really hope his recovery is going well. Not for Detroit, but for him and his family. Saw he was at a public event a month ago or so which is seemingly good news.

**stinkytofu** · February-02-20, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by ferndalien

Yes, but I think this is the thread where we complain about them not actually DOING anything.

[[worthy of note, those 28 loads were on a Saturday)

Good news regarding Saturday work. Has that been going on for awhile?

**Danny** · February-02-20, 04:51 PM

That's is why Gilbert can't think big in his building project. Now the Hudson's Tower might by 700 feet.

**JK313** · February-02-20, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by stinkytofu

Good news regarding Saturday work. Has that been going on for awhile?

Yeah, not always that busy though

**Gistok** · February-02-20, 05:39 PM

Glad we had a [[relatively) mild winter so far... a lot of work can be done, so the construction folks aren't idle.

**DetBill** · February-02-20, 11:33 PM

It still makes no sense, if the building is going to be 675 [[ if ) , why would you not go the extra 50 to 60 feet to make it the tallest in the city. It would be a great PR statement, satisfy all the promo about it being such, still allow a large scaleback, look attractive, and be a great new symbol for Detroit going forward. Its like running a 26 mile marathon and just deciding to stop at 25. So many are already saying , “ typical Detroit backtracking “ and newspapers and media first line already is “ not the tallest bldg anymore” . Its just poor PR , this could have been still avoided by just making it the tallest. People enjoy and want this sort of promo for their city. I really feel it was not a good call, 50 or 60 more feet would have made a huge difference in image. Cant believe Bedrock, who usually nails it, made that call. Many just don't care anymore after all the hype.

**313WX** · February-03-20, 12:36 AM

Originally Posted by stinkytofu

So you are 100% confident that when Gilbert got the incentives he fully intended not to build this height? If you are this sure it's a bait and switch I'd like to see some proof...

I'm not sure what type of "proof" you expect. That's like asking a customer to prove that a appliance store pulled a bait and switch with their ads.

What we do know is that he proposed a development that defied all market fundamentals for Detroit real estste without any conventional financing lined up nor any committed tenants and ever since he received his tax incentives with no clawback clause, he's been awfully coy about the final product. In short, if it's too good to be true, it's not true.

Although if Gilbert wants to prove he was operating in good faith, he would voluntarily give back a portion of his incentices based on rhe project being scaled down from what he proposed before.

**bigboat** · February-03-20, 06:27 AM

Part of the problem with Michigan and Detroit is we continue to have a very large "brain drain." We are among the 15 states that has the largest exodus of residents who leave due to weather, excessive taxes, and a general malaise with living in the "Rust belt." We have so far an ineffective governor who has been unable to fulfill any of her campaign promises. Downtown Detroit is just not very attractive to most large national companies who could bring in a large working population with a great economic improvement and demand for high priced apartments and condos.

**angry_fred** · February-03-20, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by bigboat

Part of the problem with Michigan and Detroit is we continue to have a very large "brain drain." We are among the 15 states that has the largest exodus of residents who leave due to weather, excessive taxes, and a general malaise with living in the "Rust belt." We have so far an ineffective governor who has been unable to fulfill any of her campaign promises. Downtown Detroit is just not very attractive to most large national companies who could bring in a large working population and a great economic improvement and demand for high priced apartments and condos.

This is 100% true. While Detroit is stabilizing, it's doing so at the expense of it's suburbs. We need to find a way to bring in more people... Plain and simple

**stasu1213** · February-03-20, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by DetBill

It still makes no sense, if the building is going to be 675 [[ if ) , why would you not go the extra 50 to 60 feet to make it the tallest in the city. It would be a great PR statement, satisfy all the promo about it being such, still allow a large scaleback, look attractive, and be a great new symbol for Detroit going forward. Its like running a 26 mile marathon and just deciding to stop at 25. So many are already saying , “ typical Detroit backtracking “ and newspapers and media first line already is “ not the tallest bldg anymore” . Its just poor PR , this could have been still avoided by just making it the tallest. People enjoy and want this sort of promo for their city. I really feel it was not a good call, 50 or 60 more feet would have made a huge difference in image. Cant believe Bedrock, who usually nails it, made that call. Many just don't care anymore after all the hype.

Because the Rencen has "penis envy" for height

**Warrenite84** · February-03-20, 11:58 AM

Note to developers: It's better to under promise and over deliver than to reap the kudos for a grandiose development that gets watered down. [[Value Engineered). When the architectural plans were delivered to the City Council and released to the public, the design should have been "locked in", IMHO.

**Warrenite84** · February-03-20, 12:11 PM

Should the city or state who releases the tax write off have a say in the visual impact of the design elements? In this talk about stakeholders, who in your opinion have a say in the look and functionality of a legacy project in the CBD?
Certainly not those cranky opinionated mouth breathers on DetroitYes![[sarcasm)

**Metro25** · February-03-20, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by angry_fred

This is 100% true. While Detroit is stabilizing, it's doing so at the expense of it's suburbs. We need to find a way to bring in more people... Plain and simple

No it's not, the suburbs aren't negatively impacted at all. If anything a more attractive urban core will help the suburbs. People need to get over themselves and realize the region is one entity. Detroit area is returning to normalcy and normalcy is not an artificially burnt out core with pointless office parks in the exurbs, this scenario has hurt everybody here for decades.

Metro Detroit does indeed grow it's population albeit slowly and the state has had great increases in the number of educated people despite supposed "brain drain".

**Dmberko11** · February-03-20, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by Metro25

No it's not, the suburbs aren't negatively impacted at all. If anything a more attractive urban core will help the suburbs. People need to get over themselves and realize the region is one entity. Detroit area is returning to normalcy and normalcy is not an artificially burnt out core with pointless office parks in the exurbs, this scenario has hurt everybody here for decades.

Metro Detroit does indeed grow it's population albeit slowly and the state has had great increases in the number of educated people despite supposed "brain drain".

I agree. And with a good economy you can still have offices in the suburbs and downtown. It doesn’t need to be a us vs. them mentality. The metro and city are one entity and should compliment one another. Where I live in Austin there’s hardly any land downtown so stuff has to be torn down and replaced with skyscrapers or companies build in the suburbs. Can’t wait until Detroit has that problem, LOL!

**Danny** · February-03-20, 07:23 PM

Ren Cen, you win.

**Gistok** · February-03-20, 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by Dmberko11

I agree. And with a good economy you can still have offices in the suburbs and downtown. It doesn’t need to be a us vs. them mentality. The metro and city are one entity and should compliment one another. Where I live in Austin there’s hardly any land downtown so stuff has to be torn down and replaced with skyscrapers or companies build in the suburbs. Can’t wait until Detroit has that problem, LOL!

As good as that may seem in Austin, are any historic or beautiful buildings being torn down there?

Here in Detroit you would think we haven't gotten to that problem yet, except we have folks like the Ilitches [[who want to tear almost everything down) and Emmett Moten [[who tore down that building behind the Fort Shelby and wants to tear down the United Artists Theatre).

But it is nice that Detroit has so much of its' historic buildings still standing. Being in the economic doldrums for so long had the benefit of the city having so many historic buildings downtown. In many downtowns the historic theatres are among the first buildings to go... Philadelphia, Baltimore and Cincinnati have no historic downtown movie palace that survived the onslaught of parking lots/garages. Detroit is very lucky to have so many, giving us the nations 2nd largest theatre district.

Same goes for other older/historic buildings in cities that replaced them with glass and steel soul-less high rises.

**ferndalien** · February-04-20, 09:47 AM

Yesterday [[2/3), trucks arrived to begin hauling away the largest caisson drilling equipment. The massive caissons for the tower are likely complete, though they're still sinking more for the block. The smaller block bores appear to be taking longer due to obstructions [[likely old footings from Hudson's) - they're frequently changing the down hole tools to cut with one size, switch to another size, excavate, lather, rinse, repeat.