Hudson's Site Building Thread

**401don** · January-29-20, 05:59 PM

I like the quote where he says "we're ready to come up out of the ground this year." So that's what - December 12th?

I guess they'll take the fencing down around Monroe Block and revert to a parking lot, but with landscaping.

**gthomas** · January-29-20, 06:09 PM

Detroit Free Press also post saying Bedrock is waiting to build on Monroe site after construction of the U of M Innovation Center in 2021. They want to see what programming fits better for Monroe site after the Hudson site and Innovation is done. Sigh...

**Jason** · January-29-20, 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

Gotta give credit to Gilbert. That was a hell of a bait and switch for a sweet incentive packages for both the Monroe Block and this site.

What was the bait and switch?

The height of this sounds like it's going to be close to the originally announced height. The One Campus Martius extension is almost done, Book Tower is still moving along.

The only project from the incentives package that isn't happening yet is the Monroe Block, but considering the scale of everything else I'm not personally surprised. But based on the way downtown's office market is, a major new office building is going to have to be built one way or another.

Aside from that, the incentives are based on state tax rebates for construction materials, labor, and employees at the future buildings, so if the buildings don't happen the incentives don't either.

**JK313** · January-29-20, 06:14 PM

They still don’t know what they’re building on the Monroe site, but whatever it is won’t start until at least after the innovation center starts, which won’t be for at least another year assuming they can secure the financing.

**Seven&wyo** · January-29-20, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by Jason

What was the bait and switch?

The height of this sounds like it's going to be close to the originally announced height. The One Campus Martius extension is almost done, Book Tower is still moving along.

The only project from the incentives package that isn't happening yet is the Monroe Block, but considering the scale of everything else I'm not personally surprised. But based on the way downtown's office market is, a major new office building is going to have to be built one way or another.

Aside from that, the incentives are based on state tax rebates for construction materials, labor, and employees at the future buildings, so if the buildings don't happen the incentives don't either.

He's an idiot. Try not to feed the troll..

**313WX** · January-29-20, 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by Jason

The height of this sounds like it's going to be close to the originally announced height.

And how do you know this for a fact?

**stinkytofu** · January-29-20, 07:33 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Really? I suppose you feel the same about the Broderick Tower...

Um, no.

**stinkytofu** · January-29-20, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

Gotta give credit to Gilbert. That was a hell of a bait and switch for a sweet incentive packages for both the Monroe Block and this site.

I don't think it was a bait and switch. I think there was a lot of confidence - perhaps hubris - that'd they get tenants lined up [[as well as for Hudson site) that just hasn't happened despite a massive effort. It's a major bummer - for sure - but don't think it was a "dirty move".

**Jason** · January-29-20, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

And how do you know this for a fact?

My recollection is that the early rumor mill/leaks had it being shorter than the Ren Cen. Then the first announced height was 734 feet, and the Ren Cen is 728 feet. There's a diagram in a recent community benefits update which shows it being about 670 feet, and this announcement seems to reinforce that.

I guess I should clarify that when I say about the same height I mean that it's not going to be 912 feet, and not going to be 400 feet, but rather in the general range it was expected to be initially.

**EGrant** · January-29-20, 10:32 PM

So the diagram from the Community Benefits meeting [[around 750 ft.) is probably accurate?

One thing I'll say about this whole project is the conversation online is pretty abrasive. I'm really just interested in the construction process, updates and final design, but this thread, reddit and the YouTube comments are littered with conspiracy theories, attacks and "inside info" that is really just rampant speculation. I like seeing the updates, but it's the same people [[or person?) constantly trolling with ridiculous [[and often deleted) posts. Only in Detroit.

**Metro25** · January-29-20, 11:09 PM

Originally Posted by stinkytofu

I don't think it was a bait and switch. I think there was a lot of confidence - perhaps hubris - that'd they get tenants lined up [[as well as for Hudson site) that just hasn't happened despite a massive effort. It's a major bummer - for sure - but don't think it was a "dirty move".

I don't think it's a bate and switch either, I don't think any logical person would.

Height reductions are never a celebration but this is still a huge and impressive project. I heard people saying that the UofM campus is now taking higher priority over Monroe Block, does anybody have a source for this?

**JK313** · January-29-20, 11:24 PM

Originally Posted by Metro25

I don't think it's a bate and switch either, I don't think any logical person would.

Height reductions are never a celebration but this is still a huge and impressive project. I heard people saying that the UofM campus is now taking higher priority over Monroe Block, does anybody have a source for this?

It was towards the end of the crains article about the Hudson site.

**Gistok** · January-29-20, 11:37 PM

Well if the Hudson's site is not going all the way to 912ft... then they could add the observation platform at the top as originally intended. The reason for nixing that idea was that with a height of 912 ft. they needed all the elevator space for handling tower traffic. With fewer floors and less elevator traffic, one elevator could be used for whisking people up to a Sky Lobby. I wonder if that will be re-added [[depending on the eventual height, of course).

**DetroiterOnTheWestCoast** · January-29-20, 11:59 PM

I’ve never understood the obsession with the height of this project. As long as it’s a major development I’m happy. No compelling need for it to be the tallest.

**313WX** · January-30-20, 12:07 AM

Originally Posted by Jason

My recollection is that the early rumor mill/leaks had it being shorter than the Ren Cen. Then the first announced height was 734 feet, and the Ren Cen is 728 feet. There's a diagram in a recent community benefits update which shows it being about 670 feet, and this announcement seems to reinforce that.

I guess I should clarify that when I say about the same height I mean that it's not going to be 912 feet, and not going to be 400 feet, but rather in the general range it was expected to be initially.

So a few things...

1. Before Gilbert got his incentives, he puffed up the height of the tower to 800 ft. I don't consider that to be close to 670 ft [[A 100+ ft difference is not insignificant).

2. The fact that no one at Bedrcok is actually willing to go on the record in the press with a final height suggests that number you found is subject to change again. So it's awfully presumptuous to assume how tall the tower will be, other than we know it's going to be notably shorter than what was even announced to get approval for the incentives.

3. Getting back to your last paragraph about incentives, we know for a fact the Hudson site is going to happen. The issue is, the amount in incentives are baked in regardless of what the final product will be. As far as I'm aware, there's no clawback clause in the amount of incentives granted if the scope of the project changed but the cost remained the same or even increased.

**royce** · January-30-20, 12:07 AM

What's up with they'll know more by Memorial Day? Also, how do you construct a building and not know what the final design will be? Aren't you wasting money if you're putting caissons deeper in the ground than necessary if the height of the building doesn't warrant it?

BTW, off the subject but related to downtown construction. What are they building on the DTE headquarters site on Third Avenue?

**DetBill** · January-30-20, 12:14 AM

Well, its disappointing, whether Bedrock wants to admit it or not, they most certainly used the tallest building in Michigan angle to promote the project to the public as well as to governments to attain incentives, which were all granted on that basis. Cullen says now that it was not a priority, it certainly seemed to be before. If the building comes out at 670 you wonder why in the world they would have not have just gone the extra 50 to 60 feet to make it the tallest [[ a good marketing angle and positive statement at any time ), but who knows.
Hopefully something nice will be built, after all this was constantly promoted by Bedrock to be the landmark destination for Detroit. Its been a long road and many are just losing interest.

**Metro25** · January-30-20, 01:47 AM

Originally Posted by Seven&wyo

He's an idiot. Try not to feed the troll..

I wish I could like this comment. It's like his whole career is attacking Detroit. Why waste so much energy in a limited life span?

**bigboat** · January-30-20, 04:50 AM

Bedrock will take down the fencing around the Monroe Block and sell it to the Illitches so they can make another parking lot and charge ridiculous parking rates.

**Gistok** · January-30-20, 05:25 AM

Originally Posted by bigboat

Bedrock will take down the fencing around the Monroe Block and sell it to the Illitches so they can make another parking lot and charge ridiculous parking rates.

There are enough unproductive comments on this thread....

**ct_alum** · January-30-20, 06:48 AM

Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast

I’ve never understood the obsession with the height of this project. As long as it’s a major development I’m happy. No compelling need for it to be the tallest.

Thank you! What is wrong with people? Would they rather have the 2nd tallest building or nothing? Get a life!
All of the ire and "disappointment" should be directed at the lying scumbag Illitches who have gotten tons of subsidies for all of their grandiose promises and essentially thumbed their noses once they got the taxpayer money. Need an additional 2 years to figure out what to do with a single property? Really? What will the excuse be 2 years from now? [[If it hasn't been turned into another code-violating parking lot by then).

**bigboat** · January-30-20, 06:53 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

There are enough unproductive comments on this thread....

I was kidding.

**EGrant** · January-30-20, 08:22 AM

The height is something people can point to as progress. It's almost symbolic, since most of us will never actually be up in one of those condos. Tall buildings are notable, and they have been since we started building them, so of course people will be interested in the final height and disappointed when it doesn't surpass the Ren Cen. We don't get to see these kind of projects very often in Detroit.

**Gistok** · January-30-20, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by bigboat

I was kidding.

Sorry, I had a bad day yesterday.... the older gentleman I take grocery shopping every week, who lives 3 doors down from me, and smokes like a chimney... made a fatal mistake...

https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/...ded-cigarette/

**southen** · January-30-20, 09:33 AM

To this point it has been easy to give DG the benefit of the doubt with his track record of rehabilitating properties. I think he is going to quickly lose that benefit with many people, myself included, after this feels like a very obvious bait and switch to get incentives.

Years ago we would have been over the moon regarding a tower going up that was over 600 feet. His constant changing of the design, hinting at something at 912 feet, and delays make this almost feel like a loss in the end. Throw in the Monroe Blocks on hold until after they figure out more of the Innovation Center and Fail Jail and it seems completely Ilitch-like from an organization that has been anything but.

We will end up with a great building in a prominent location. So there's that. I think I am most bummed that I naively fell into the trap that "sure, he is asking for incentives, but look at everything else he has done!" He is head and shoulders above Olympia but at the end of the day he is still a billionaire looking to squeeze the city for everything that he can get. You live, you learn.