Hudson's Site Building Thread

[drjeff]

Remember when they broke ground on LCA and nothing noticeable from the street happened for awhile? Remember how there were naysayers swearing this project would never happen? I remember, and those morons would never admit it. And that project was from the unreliable Ilitches. Gilbert has never started a project in Detroit that wasn't finished.

On another note, do you really think the same numbers of tradespeople are available in Detroit as in Chicago, where there has been constant construction for decades?

[Gistok]

Remember when they broke ground on LCA and nothing noticeable from the street happened for awhile? Remember how there were naysayers swearing this project would never happen? I remember, and those morons would never admit it. And that project was from the unreliable Ilitches. Gilbert has never started a project in Detroit that wasn't finished.

On another note, do you really think the same numbers of tradespeople are available in Detroit as in Chicago, where there has been constant construction for decades?

Well stated Dr. Jeff.... I've been mentioning before on this forum that there is a SERIOUS skilled construction labor shortage in this town. In fact that goes nationwide. And a friend in the construction industry said that he had to leave Michigan for 1 month at a time, because his firm had him work on projects in other states... where they tend to cost more money, and therefore his company makes more money lending their Michigan crews to other states. This slows down Michigan construction.

With Gilbert successfully rehabbing/building about 100 buildings downtown... why would anyone question these last few? Unless they were an Ilitch shill, or just someone not knowledgeable in the industry.

[Gistok]

Also anyone familiar with the Hudson site knows that the existing 4 story undergroud deck had to come out, then the walls of the original Hudsons below ground had to be reinforced, before the foundations to bedrock could be laid. Anyone watching the long term camera action shows that they are not just moving dirt around.

This site has been a patchwork of different buildings slowly stitched together for the Hudsons building, so it had special work that 'shovel ready' virgin ground would not have.

[Gistok]

Oh yes, the labor shortage excuse. [[Dan's health and looming recession round out the top 3, right?) Isn't it interesting how a so-called skilled labor shortage doesn't slow Chicago or Nashville or Columbus or even Ann Arbor construction...or LCA or Jeep factories in Detroit?

Anecdotes are nice... because just anyone can make one up....

https://www.marketplace.org/2019/04/...es-to-rebrand/

https://www.globest.com/2019/02/22/s...20190716143019

https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/...ncerns-in-2019

"The effects of labor shortages are widespread. Thirty-seven percent of contractors said the labor shortages have raised the costs of bids and contracts, while others say it has prolonged the amount of time it takes to complete projects."


From this week.....

https://www.contractormag.com/construction-data/70-contractors-struggling-meet-deadlines-labor-shortage-persists

[EGrant]

So let me try to understand. Gilbert & Co are not building anything on the Hudson site because they didn't get "Chinese financing" so instead they are employing people to go in the site every single day, drill deep holes, place caissons and pour concrete for a building they aren't even going to build? That's what is going on?

Also, the entire LCA construction thread was started because someone was wondering why there was no progress at the site: https://www.detroityes.com/mb/showth...ngs-arena-site

And a Muckraker article: http://motorcitymuckraker.com/2015/0...roundbreaking/

[drjeff]

Also, the entire LCA construction thread was started because someone was wondering why there was no progress at the site: https://www.detroityes.com/mb/showth...ngs-arena-site

And a Muckraker article: http://motorcitymuckraker.com/2015/0...roundbreaking/

That's exactly what I was referring to in my post.

[Danny]

Folks be patient. The caisons has to be drilled into bedrock for strong support of the Dan Gilbert Hudson's Block Tower so it beat wind and gravity problems. Then the steel girders will begin.

[drjeff]

Such an acute labor shortage FCA has round-the-clock weekend and holiday construction at the Jeep factory to finish it ahead of schedule in 2020, while Monroe Blocks remains a vacant parcel and Hudson's remains a dirt hole.

It's a honor to have a construction expert on the forum.

[Seven&wyo]

That's right everyone just forget the fact that we didn't even have a downtown before DG, but jazzgal here clearly knows better.

[Seven&wyo]

Yes because building an aluminum shell and building a fucking skyscraper are the samething. You're a genius, why didn't we see that

[Dmberko11]

Please tell us how Hudson's foundation is more complex than DESIGN OF THE YEAR 150 N Riverside in Chicago which finished in 32 months?

What these men on this forum aren’t saying is it’s going slow because the builder of Hudson’s is still trying to figure out why they’re building in the first place. The main tower doesn’t even have an “anchor” so to speak. They’re looking for a big hotel that wants to come to Detroit and you know what’s sad? It’s taken this long to land one. This project was announced years ago and yet no hotel really wants to move in, even in a shiny new tower. I hope to God I’m proven wrong and I’ll happily eat crow tomorrow if Marriott or Hyatt or WHOMEVER announces they’ll lease space for 500 rooms in the tower.

And I know for a fact I’ll get a rebuttal from some guy on this forum, well, Detroit’s office vacancy is only 11%! Blah blah blah. Yeah, but if it weren’t for Gilbert, and even WITH Gilbert, Detroit isn’t exactly a magnet for businesses to build an HQ downtown or lease class A or B office space. Getting TCF Bank is a big win for Detroit, but I’m afraid the city needs so much more than that. It’s only a start. And yes I’m aware there have been other companies that have come and or big corporations that have opened small offices in the city. Again, this is just a start. I’m not try to knock Detroit or kick it when it’s down. It’s recovery is just so nascent and already, as evidenced by the slow Hudson’s construction timeline as Jazzgal pointed out, it seems like the Renaissance is running out of steam. Detroit’s last significant office tower built was One Detroit and that was in ‘95 I believe and it was supposed to have a twin which didn’t happen. Not good. I’m glad Gilbert is adding on to OCM. That’s huge. Hopefully we’ll see more prime office space like that.

I’m not rooting against Detroit or trying to play the role of the troll. But I have to agree with Jazzgal that Hudson’s construction progress is beyond slow. Especially compared with other cities. I lived near Chicago and they have way trickier sites to build true skyscrapers from than Detroit. Sorry. Excuses can fly like labor shortage and so on. But as I stated in like my first paragraph of the rant, what’s the programming for the tower...why build it in the first place? Oh you want it for a hotel?? Then why isn’t one talking with Bedrock right now, signing the dotted line?

The Detroit business market sucks, especially compared to world class downtowns like Chicago where builders can’t keep up with demand for hotels, apartments, office space and what not. Detroit lags behind every major city in this regard. I live in Austin and they are building over 10 30 story buildings downtown at the moment, google is building a 600 foot second HQ, and Indeed is building a 600 footer as well. I was born and raised in Detroit’s suburbs and I want for it so bad to come back but it’s been slow and painful to say the least.

[313WX]

What these men on this forum aren’t saying is it’s going slow because the builder of Hudson’s is still trying to figure out why they’re building in the first place. The main tower doesn’t even have an “anchor” so to speak. They’re looking for a big hotel that wants to come to Detroit and you know what’s sad? It’s taken this long to land one. This project was announced years ago and yet no hotel really wants to move in, even in a shiny new tower. I hope to God I’m proven wrong and I’ll happily eat crow tomorrow if Marriott or Hyatt or WHOMEVER announces they’ll lease space for 500 rooms in the tower.

And I know for a fact I’ll get a rebuttal from some guy on this forum, well, Detroit’s office vacancy is only 11%! Blah blah blah. Yeah, but if it weren’t for Gilbert, and even WITH Gilbert, Detroit isn’t exactly a magnet for businesses to build an HQ downtown or lease class A or B office space. Getting TCF Bank is a big win for Detroit, but I’m afraid the city needs so much more than that. It’s only a start. And yes I’m aware there have been other companies that have come and or big corporations that have opened small offices in the city. Again, this is just a start. I’m not try to knock Detroit or kick it when it’s down. It’s recovery is just so nascent and already, as evidenced by the slow Hudson’s construction timeline as Jazzgal pointed out, it seems like the Renaissance is running out of steam. Detroit’s last significant office tower built was One Detroit and that was in ‘95 I believe and it was supposed to have a twin which didn’t happen. Not good. I’m glad Gilbert is adding on to OCM. That’s huge. Hopefully we’ll see more prime office space like that.

I’m not rooting against Detroit or trying to play the role of the troll. But I have to agree with Jazzgal that Hudson’s construction progress is beyond slow. Especially compared with other cities. I lived near Chicago and they have way trickier sites to build true skyscrapers from than Detroit. Sorry. Excuses can fly like labor shortage and so on. But as I stated in like my first paragraph of the rant, what’s the programming for the tower...why build it in the first place? Oh you want it for a hotel?? Then why isn’t one talking with Bedrock right now, signing the dotted line?

The Detroit business market sucks, especially compared to world class downtowns like Chicago where builders can’t keep up with demand for hotels, apartments, office space and what not. Detroit lags behind every major city in this regard. I live in Austin and they are building over 10 30 story buildings downtown at the moment, google is building a 600 foot second HQ, and Indeed is building a 600 footer as well. I was born and raised in Detroit’s suburbs and I want for it so bad to come back but it’s been slow and painful to say the least.

I tend to agree with your post.

And you don't even have to look up at Chicago. Just look at Nashville. It's a metro with less than 2 million people and they have high rises going up everywhere you look, with more being proposed seemingly every week/month. You can't turn your head in their midtown/downtown without seeing a bunch of cranes. They also have Grand Hyatt, Conrad Hilton and Four Seasons high rise hotels all under construction. In addition, they're also getting 5,000 Amazon tech jons and are finalizing plans for 3,000 Oracle tech jobs.

I know someone's going to come along and say "but da wedder!!!" or "but da taxez!!!" Well the weather certainly doesn't seem to be stopping Seattle's explosive growth, and high taxes doesn't seem to be stopping Minneapolis' healthy but moderate growth rate.

People keep bringing up Gilbert's track record. It's one thing to renovate a bunch of existing buildings, but If he's struggling to do even one new high rise/skyscraper, it speaks volume to not only to the limits of his pull as a developer, but also to Detroit's fledgling comeback when it can't even land a hotel tenant at a time of a supposed room shortage or a major corporate tenant even from the suburbs to anchor his proposed skyscrapers.

[Seven&wyo]

You're a perfect combination of condescending arrogance and utter stupidity. Enjoy life, honey

[wzer]

No shortage of conspiracy theorists. Why not just wait and see before making all these dire predictions with no real evidence. If you have actual proof, documents, quotes from stake holders , anything really that is substantive then share otherwise stopping treating people that are optimistic like they are infected with a disease. All you do is create a negative environment that is needless. This is the image of Detroit[[ers) that people are trying to shed. If in the end it doesn't get built then so be it but your anecdotal references do not prove a thing. Each development has its own set of circumstances and given the importance of this site in the overall history of the city maybe just maybe they want to do it right and that might take longer. Detroit is not Chicago, so stop comparing apples and oranges. Just b/c this isn't going as fast as you think it should go doesn't mean anything, so chill and see what happens.

[Dmberko11]

So the "naysayers" are conspiracy theorists, not the folks hallucinating that a giant hole in the ground two years after groundbreaking is actually a 90-story skyscraper?

I'm sorry, this has gone on for two years. What's the limit on waiting and seeing? No groundbreaking by ___ and you'll admit this was a conjob? What signal are you waiting to see, financing, final plans, something vertical?

I don't have patience for a guy who lobbied Lansing for nearly $700M to build these apparently fake projects which are clearly leaning towards some serious bait and switch.

I agree with a lot of things said here. Especially since he got brownsfield tax credits and other state subsidies. If Gilbert doesn't deliver on his promises you can cook this kabob, lol. I know Detroiters on this forum haven't really been anywhere else and aren't exposed to other real estate markets so they're in their own little cacoon and are clueless on market signals, so on and so forth. If after this coming spring [[yes, 2020 already) there isn't vertical progress in the pit and actual construction activity on the monroe blocks -- and correct me if I'm wrong but Hudson's broke ground in 2017? Yes, yes, the four story underground parking had to be demoed: don't need to reiterate that point for the umteenth time -- then I will call it a fake skyscraper too sadly. I'm still not quite there yet because I've been watching the daily videos of the activity in "the pit" and they HAVE been very sluggishly taking their sweet time drilling for the foundation of which they're apparently more than three-quarters of the way through with. Time will tell with many of Detroit's projects. They creep at glacial speed unfortunately.

[Gistok]

Well put. It's tough to chat with folks who clearly their ego wedded to fake projects like Hudson's [[and Monroe Blocks). I'm never sure if these are actual flacks or just desperate marks successfully bamboozled by Dan and Mike's pricey PR.

No financing, no major tenants, no final plans. Sure does walk, swim and quack like a fake skyscraper. Just like LCA's District Detroit. Just like MLS arena district. Best case Dan weasels into getting all the tax dough to cover the 14-story podium building.

I don't like Dan as a person... I know of him from some who went to high school with him.

You come on this forum like a troll... how do you expect to be treated?

There used to be a guy who posted here 10+ years ago named Brian... he swore to holy heaven that the Book Cadillac would never become anything, except a parking lot. No matter how much people talked about the complex formula it would take to fix it up Brian swore and bet that nothing would ever become of the Book Cadillac. Know what happened? He's never been heard from on this forum again after shooting his mouth off that he was right and everyone else was wrong.

Then there used to be a guy who posted here 3+ years ago name emu_steve. He swore to high heaven that Ilitch would finally build his District Detroit [[which if you as a newbie were to have checked out the threads about LCA & environs). Most of the rest of us were sceptical... we had seen all this before [[verbatim) back in the late 1990s when so much more was promised than Comerica Park. There was going to be a Hard Rock Cafe OR Planet Hollywood anchoring the Columbia St. Agora [[marketplace). We saw none of that happen since 1999, and we already knew that the Ilitch snake oil folks weren't going to hoodwink us a 2nd time for LCA... except that is for emu_steve, who drank their Kool-Aid [[or could have worked for them)... and he argued with the the other folks on this forum until he was blue in the face. End result... we haven't heard from emu_steve now going on 2 years.

Now you come on this forum... we haven't a clue if you are a Ilitch lackey, or disgruntled overworked former Gilbert employee, or Russian click farm hacker.

Bottom line is we are very wary of folks that come from nowhere like they know it all. Gilbert owns over 100 properties in Detroit... so far he's kept his word on 97 out of 100 projects. That's a very high count for a businessman [[even with his tax credits).

If you don't like Gilbert, fine... for whatever reason. But most of us don't give a rats ass that he's not building his MSL soccer venture... when a sensible [[Ford Field) solution is available. That's a non-starter.

As for the other 3 sites... One Campus Martius is nearing completion, and millions have already been spent of the foundation work and millions more for removal of the existing parking deck. If he is having issues with lining up tenants... then YES that is a common Detroit problem. Ditto for the Monroe Development.

But you're preaching to the choir by talking to us about other cities and how they do things and how we're way behind. We know that... and it's par for the course for Detroit.

But don't go comparing Gilbert to Ilitch... you're just insulting your own intelligence if you think they are in any way alike.

[mwilbert]

It is obvious that figuring out the actual tenants/uses of the building aren't as far along as they should be. The site prep is taking longer than you or I would expect. That does not, in my view, make it a "conjob", but eventually we will see exactly what happens, and perhaps at that point I will agree with you. Or not.

But in keeping with what Gistok said, there is no comparison between the Illitchs and Gilbert. Just look at the Book Tower. In their entire grubby careers, the Illitchs have never done anything vaguely of that magnitude to preserve a building. As pleased as I am that they restored the Fox, it's the only good development they've ever done, and it was a fraction of the effort being put into one building by Gilbert. If he ended up building a 14 story parking structure on the Hudson's site, there would still be no comparison.

[Dmberko11]

Au contraire I'm no troll, I love my hometown. It's sad how any degree of skepticism or merely logically calling out an obvious conjob gets people so animated.

A lot of people on here are nimbys. They’re very wary of newcomers suddenly coming out of the woodwork and their antenna go up and the label troll comes to mind for them. That’s just how they are. I can understand. Most people who post here are baby boomers and very familiar with Detroit and the culture.

I do miss emu_steve though. His cheerleading of district Detroit was comical. I wanted to believe but I’m no fool and anyone with eyes in their head and anything between their ears can see a red herring in district Detroit. The ilitches never change and it’s only gotten worse since Mike passed.

[ILKSGAMI]

Au contraire I'm no troll, I love my hometown. It's sad how any degree of skepticism or merely logically calling out an obvious conjob gets people so animated.

From my perspective as I can't speak for anyone else, it's more that you go beyond a degree of skepticism. Whether it's here or on a different platform, the weekly bringing up random projects here or in Chicago to link them somehow to Hudson's gets a little old. A degree of skepticism is always healthy and probably warranted due to the pace this project has taken, but you absolutely refuse to even consider the possibility that there are multiple factors in how fast or slow a project progresses.

For the record, I really don't have any ties to Detroit other than living in the Metro area for about 7 months. It really doesn't matter to me whether it happens or not, but as having worked in small scale construction before I would love to watch a skyscraper get built first hand. In my hometown I too have seen big projects promised with a lot of fanfare, only to have the rug pulled out a year later and the project move to Chicago. It was heartbreaking for my community, and I guess the optimist inside me hopes that doesn't happen here.

From my own observations there has been progress on the site, what looks like skyscraper foundation work has been going pretty continuously for at Least the first six months of this year.

[archfan]

...
I'm sorry, this has gone on for two years. What's the limit on waiting and seeing? No groundbreaking by ___ and you'll admit this was a conjob? What signal are you waiting to see, financing, final plans, something vertical?

I don't have patience for a guy who lobbied Lansing for nearly $700M to build these apparently fake projects which are clearly leaning towards some serious bait and switch.

I guess for people who have seen Gilbert's track record, most people are willing to be patient. What convinces you that it's a conjob? Is it only the amount of time it has taken to work on the foundation, or something more?

Beyond that, what would be Gilbert's motivation for miming work on the foundation? What advantage does he gain by having people push dirt around?

[Gistok]

How many buildings has Dan Gilbert renovated to date? Over 90... with the fail jail site being discussed as an innovation center with a New York developer and UofM... a far cry better than a soccer stadium. The jail site has been cleared and the new justice campus [[partly paid for by Gilbert, including all cost overruns) is going up over by E. Warren and I-75. So besides his health, Dan Gilbert has a full plate with 4 large projects all going on [[including the work-in-progress Book Tower/Building).

15 years ago on this forum this type of development downtown would have been unfathomable. Now because there's some issues with some of his projects he's being called a shykster by some, who we have no clue if it's LBPs ghost coming back to haunt, or someone with an axe to grind against Gilbert.

Time... and only time will tell. But 97 buildings out of a hundred is a pretty damn good record.

[313WX]

So the "naysayers" are conspiracy theorists, not the folks hallucinating that a giant hole in the ground two years after groundbreaking is actually a 90-story skyscraper?

I'm sorry, this has gone on for two years. What's the limit on waiting and seeing? No groundbreaking by ___ and you'll admit this was a conjob? What signal are you waiting to see, financing, final plans, something vertical?

I don't have patience for a guy who lobbied Lansing for nearly $700M to build these apparently fake projects which are clearly leaning towards some serious bait and switch.

As far as bait and switch, Gilbert has done it before. Just ask Don Garber of the MLS. He can tell you all about it. And he punished Gilbert [[and by extension, Detroit) accordingly for it.

So I certainly wouldn't put it past him to do it again.

[ParisianLesion]

As far as bait and switch, Gilbert has done it before. Just ask Don Garber of the MLS. He can tell you all about it. And he punished Gilbert [[and by extension, Detroit) accordingly for it.

So I certainly wouldn't put it past him to do it again.

FWIW, I know from first hand sources on both sides that it was always Gilbert's intention to build a new stadium but Duggan, rightly IMO, wouldn't let him do it. Essentially told him it was an inefficient use of downtown real estate and it ran counter to P&D's master plan.

The MLS case is an example of government working well with business to not build unnecessary garbage while an existing stadium is empty 60% of the time. So in the words of DCFC, "F*%k MLS." Lol, just my opinion

[bust]

FWIW, I know from first hand sources on both sides that it was always Gilbert's intention to build a new stadium but Duggan, rightly IMO, wouldn't let him do it. Essentially told him it was an inefficient use of downtown real estate and it ran counter to P&D's master plan.

The MLS case is an example of government working well with business to not build unnecessary garbage while an existing stadium is empty 60% of the time. So in the words of DCFC, "F*%k MLS." Lol, just my opinion

If that's what happened it was a great decision on the part of the city. I agree.

[bust]

jazzgal, my record on this forum shows I have neither boots to lick nor an axe to grind. But your sudden appearance here and your single-issue blitzkreig of gratuitous criticism indicates the latter applies to you.

I doubt you like jazz, or that you're even a gal, but maybe this will help you chill out. Even if it just gets you to listen for a few minutes, that'd be a start.



Eli Degibri Quartet - The Troll, Live at the Tokyo Jazz Festival
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYUnTGD1P3Q