Hudson's Site Building Thread

[LongGone06]

I had always wondered what was the original plan for this spot after the Hudson's building was razed in 1998. I was surprised that the Compuware Building wasn't built on this spot instead of the corner. I know that the steel beams protruded from the ground. Did the Archer administration had a master plan for this particular spot. Were the plans stalled or changed during the Kilpatrick administration? I was thinking of a 5 to 10 story glass and steel building for this site that would house retail on the ground level and businesses or condos on the top level. I wonder what had changed over the years

As I recall, the parking structure was built to support a 20-story building, if and when the economic conditions justified such construction. The vertical steel supports were part of the foundation for the building.

[bust]

I like this project. A lot. But I share the unpopular skepticism whether it is important it should be super tall.

Many folks care about how tall. Height is a sign that real estate is valuable.

Not always. Usually vanity has a lot to do with it. At 105 stories, the Ryugyong Hotel was to be the world's tallest, but not because real estate in Pyongyang is valuable. Land in Detroit isn't particularly valuable compared to land in other cities either.

Going vertical enables density. Density means more businesses. More businesses means more demand. More demand means high buildings. The cycle continues.

I do also agree that viability is also crucial, but height is will contribute to what we want downtown to be.

This is true, but only within reason. After a certain point, as buildings get taller the negatives proportionally accumulate and eventually outweigh the benefits. The time and distance required to descend to street level becomes a disincentive to patronize outside businesses. Companies are incentivized to provide their own cafeterias, and workers are more likely to use them. Tourists are more likely to patronize a restuarant in the hotel.

This was a criticism of New York's World Trade Center, for example. There were tens of thousands of workers, but the surrounding area saw little benefit. Of course that didn't stop them from building tall there again. There were many more than economic purposes behind that decision, of course.

Get ready for skyscraper wind effect too. The Williamsburg Savings Bank in Brooklyn was for decades by far the tallest building around, and to this day, depending on the weather conditions, it can be surrounded by gale-force winds, even when it is tranquil only a block away.

As to the economics of building tall, beyond a certain height construction and maintenance heights reduce economic efficiency. And as they get taller, the percentage of usable space decreases.

But Dan Gilbert wants a status symbol, and apparently a lot of Detroiters do too.

It is not my intention to be a Debbie Downer. My purpose is to suggest it is better not to get carried away pursuing unimportant goals. We should prioritize accordingly.

Far too much of Detroit is empty. I'll say it again: I'd rather see twice as much parking lot space activated by projects like this one, half as tall, than half a much activated by a building twice as tall. It would do much more to provide density, vitality, and to support local businesses. And it would likely be more economically viable too.

The height of vanity: Why taller isn’t better and the 10 vainest buildings in the world
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...d-8805154.html

[bigboat]

I agree that the drilling and caisson work seems to be a little slow, but the vice president of Bedrock construction forecast that two months ago it would be about 14 more months more wait before we saw anything vertical. When that happens just think about how good all of the commentators will feel on this thread.

[Dmberko11]

I agree that the drilling and caisson work seems to be a little slow, but the vice president of Bedrock construction forecast that two months ago it would be about 14 more months more wait before we saw anything vertical. When that happens just think about how good all of the commentators will feel on this thread.

eh, after about a year or so we'll have lots of projects going vertical at the same time. 2020 will be a good year for these forums as we watch Gilbert's projects start to rise. Hopefully in 2019 we'll see headlines of new or already announced projects to add to our growing watchlist of stuff happening in the D.

[O3H]

People should learn from history and the Rec Cen story

https://www.freep.com/story/money/bu...ter/995334001/

Big and tall - do NOT automatically guarantee anything !!!!!!!

The Ren Cen is truly a cautionary tale of reality

[Worldsgreatest]

Can we make a rule that you can't post in this thread unless you have an update or something informative to say? That would be great.

[O3H]

Let's make a rule where history is irrelevant , like the previous post was.

[southen]

What is being built is putting a focus on outward facing retail and street activity, contains residential in addition to two hotels, and is providing a fraction of the office space that will likely have a tenant vs. emptying downtown like the Ren Cen. Outside of all of those important differences though they are basically the same...

[Scottathew]

Not always. Usually vanity has a lot to do with it. At 105 stories, the Ryugyong Hotel was to be the world's tallest, but not because real estate in Pyongyang is valuable. Land in Detroit isn't particularly valuable compared to land in other cities either.

Bust, excellent post and great points.

However, you can't use North Korea as an example to argue against the motivations of height and density in the US. The free market does not exist in North Korea, everything is planned by the government. North Korea also has supermarkets with fake fruit that is just so outsiders can see the appearance of a functioning government. That can't be used as an argument against supermarkets in the US.

[313WX]

My appoglies , this building will get built .Outside of a war or market crash , it’ll get done.
Mr Gilbert’s track record speaks for itself ��

Just to be fair, Gilbert has never built a skyscraper [[as far as I'm aware). He does have a proven track record, but not with developments of this scale.

[Worldsgreatest]

Uhh yes he has. Book Tower and the David Stott building which are more difficult than new costruction. David Stott had a destroyed flooded basement.

[stasu1213]

People should learn from history and the Rec Cen story

https://www.freep.com/story/money/bu...ter/995334001/

Big and tall - do NOT automatically guarantee anything !!!!!!!

The Ren Cen is truly a cautionary tale of reality

In the past I wanted us to have a very tall structure such as everyone else across the country has but discovered that Detroit really doesn't need one. For what? It's good that Quicken loans, Bedrock, Fat Head, Microsoft, and Google had fill. Minoru Yamasaki orginally wanted the World Trade Centers to be only 70 stories tall. Rockefeller and the big wigs in New York had wanted them to be taller to show off New York's as well as America's financial might. The World Trade Centers were considered condemned by the 1980s due to asbestos sprayed on the steel beams throughout the building. They were considered white elelphants especially after busines after business started moving out after the 1993 bombing

[Worldsgreatest]

^ what does any of this have to do with Hudsons?

[Dmberko11]

all of these people saying detroit doesn't NEED a tall building and skyscrapers don't matter are getting ridiculous. If you don't like tall buildings? Then get off this thread. Period. Detroit will never be a Chicago in that regard, but who cares? Detroit has a respectable skyline and it'll only get better thanks to Gilbert. Be grateful for these projects and stop griping. Geeze

[313WX]

Uhh yes he has...

What skyscrapers have Dan Gilbert built, let alone one as large in scale as the Hudson skyscraper?

[Scottathew]

Sorry to be a cynic but this appears to be a ruse where you stall with parked excavators and a small crew pushing dirt around while you hunt for financiers.



​Y'all are content to see a crew playing in the hole for another 14 months?! Bedrock alleges demand downtown is on fire, so why slow roll this? It's illogical. A tower does ​not take 60+ months to build. The city is giving the bondholder who owns Joe Louis ​only ​36 months to complete a​ development after demo or they forfeit the land. Dan has owned a free and clear Hudson's site since 200​7 – and the economy has been roaring for 10 years!​ In 2016 Dan claimed the Hudson's tower would be completed by April 2020. ​Now the completion date is 2023 after a last-minute redesign? ​I know Dan is above reproach by all the boosters, but come on, this is really fishy.

Your perception doesn't line up with my reality.

I work in the building next door [[so obviously you can draw some conclusions about my conflicts of interest). However, I've watched tremendous progress in this site.

- Demolition of existing 4-level underground parking garage and removal of most material. This part was HUGE and involved a lot of work.
- Work on the walls of the pit, they've reinforced them adding concrete and rebar
- Drilling and other activities that I don't fully understand

Also, you have to keep in mind the One Campus Martius building and it's addition, I've been detailing that here: https://www.detroityes.com/mb/showth...Campus-Martius

I certainly respect your right to a different conclusion, but I'm surprised that's the one you've come to. The progress and its speed has been rather well documented in this post by myself and others. Go back a few pages and take a look at what the site looked over the months.

[NSortzi]

DetroitYes: where forumers complain for years there’s no development anywhere in the city then complain when there’s too much development occurring.

[Worldsgreatest]

^ This forum is just full of trolls and needs to be purged.

[Worldsgreatest]

^ he didn't pull the fail jail development, he's just not building a tacky soccer stadium on it. there are new conceptual renders if you bother to do some real searching. Speculating the future is much different than acting like an armchair construction expert who specializes in skyscrapers which is what you have been doing. There has been no stalling in this project so unless you have an update for us stop posting here.

What would any of this have to do with amazon? You know this is a residential+hotel tower right? absolutely no office in the tower portion at all. Also these plans were announced long before he had any knowledge of the HQ2 contest, more baseless conjecture.

[Gistok]

Trolling? Facts:

>Fed rate hikes
>stock market just had worst week in a decade
>S&P 500 is down 17.8% this year
>looming recession
>Big 3 in retreat
>Dan pulled MLS arena development after we were bombarded with the same sort of gorgeous renderings

My theory is this was a conceptual carrot he was dangling to Amazon and Apple. But Amazon went to DC, NYC and Nashville; and Apple just chose Austin, TX. The "we expect to be in the hole for another 14 months" seems like another stall tactic. There's no reason real construction shouldn't have begun right after he locked in the tax breaks in Oct. 2017.

Go back about 5 pages and re-read what will be in the tower.... 2 hotels, lots of apartments, and some exhibition space... but NO OFFICE SPACE. And they haven't finalized the tower height yet either.

Just because you don't like the speed that the Hudson's site is moving at is meaningless, unless you have insight into construction. Dan Gilbert owns 74 buildings [[+ or - 5) in downtown Detroit. He has A TRACK RECORD. In your less than 1 month on this forum... you have nothing but vitriolic comments to show for it. Give it a rest...

[Dmberko11]

Don't feed the troll, I mean Grinch. I'm sure he'll be back in this thread when there's pictures of the Hudson's tower rising.... sarcasm. Can't keep all the Debbie downers down.

[O3H]

When will Detroit see any TAX revenue from the structure 2040+ ????
It's already basically 2020, and it surely received """some""" kind of break,
otherwise the project never would have started..................

Curious if anyone will be able to see ""another state"" from the top :-)

[313WX]

Sorry to be a cynic but this appears to be a ruse where you stall with parked excavators and a small crew pushing dirt around while you hunt for financiers.



​Y'all are content to see a crew playing in the hole for another year?! Bedrock alleges demand downtown is on fire, so why slow-roll? It's illogical. A tower does ​not take 60+ months to build. The city is giving the bondholder who owns Joe Louis ​only ​36 months to complete a​ development after demo or they forfeit the land. Dan has owned a free and clear Hudson's site since 200​7 – and the economy was roaring from 2008-2018!​ In 2016 Dan claimed the Hudson's tower would be completed by April 2020. ​Now the completion date is 2023 after a last-minute redesign? ​I know Dan is above reproach by all the boosters, but come on, this is fishy!

It is true that Bank of America plaza in Atlanta did only take 14 months to be built while the Sears Tower in Chicago only took 25 months.

But in all fairness, I suspect the reason the tower is taking so long to be built is because of the historically high material costs and "skilled" labor shortage. The only way to keep costs under control is probably by going really slow with any progress. So yes, you are correct that the Hudson skyscraper could be built much faster in theory, but Gilbert could also be dealing with challenges unique to those from the early 1990s or the early 1970s that are preventing similarly fast construction.

As far as financing costs, whoever said he was getting bank loans? My understanding is that he's spending money out of his own pocket [[with the help of taxpayer support) to build these skyscrapers, as no bank in their right mind would loan anyone the funds to build structures of such scale in Detroit.

I really do get your point and skepticism. But it's a matter of perspective. People in Detroit have been so downtrodden for so long that they're ecstatic to see any type of real development. They don't care if relative to any normal major city, the pace of said development/growth is at a snails pace or is unrealistic.

So I say let them live in bliss.

[bigboat]

My question is, has there been any cement poured into the large drilled holes with the rebar in place yet?

[stasu1213]

As I recall, the parking structure was built to support a 20-story building, if and when the economic conditions justified such construction. The vertical steel supports were part of the foundation for the building.

Were there any renderings of a 20 story structure from the 1990s that was planned for that site?