Hudson's Site Building Thread

**ShadowSoarer** · July-01-22, 11:30 AM

Hopefully this whole tax incentive issue gets settle soon. Update as of July 1st:

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**bigboat** · July-01-22, 02:35 PM

I commented on this before, I thought it was unusual for Bedrock to convert the steel frame construction now to reinforced cement. It is probably less expensive and one way they can afford to complete this project in one form.

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**royce** · July-01-22, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by stinkytofu

I'm not going to lie, it's quite annoying that Bedrock appears to be holding up vertical construction until they get this passed. They are basically holding the council hostage at this point.

This is one of the few times that I have to disagree with something Dan Gilbert is doing. I don't think the city council should grant him the abatement. Detroit residents have been forced out of their homes because they couldn't pay their property taxes. It just seems disingenuous for the council to allow a billionaire to not have to pay his. I'm ok with scaling back the project. I never wanted to see a tower that tall in that location anyway. This new tower should be within the height of the Broderick and the Stott. That's my preference, and that's my two cents.

**stasu1213** · July-02-22, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by bigboat

I commented on this before, I thought it was unusual for Bedrock to convert the steel frame construction now to reinforced cement. It is probably less expensive and one way they can afford to complete this project in one form.

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Who own the cement company in Detroit? This project would had been half completed if it was constructed with mostly steel and glass.

**southen** · July-02-22, 05:16 PM

Floating another development based conspiracy?

It might just be that the remaining floors are all the same height and have the same purpose. Many of the floors to this point look to be event or hospitality related with some spanning greater heights than others.

**Jason** · July-02-22, 11:48 PM

Who own the cement company in Detroit? This project would had been half completed if it was constructed with mostly steel and glass.

Everything that has been built so far is a steel frame structure. Steel buildings still use concrete for the slabs, and for standard skyscraper engineering for the core as well.

Steel is good at spanning large distances which is good for office buildings because you want as much flexible column free space as possible, but for hotels and residential, you don't need to span large distances because the biggest rooms are not particularly big. They used steel for the lower floors containing the event space because they want bigger spans there, because obviously a banquet room needs to be wider than 10 feet or whatever.

**stasu1213** · July-03-22, 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by Jason

Everything that has been built so far is a steel frame structure. Steel buildings still use concrete for the slabs, and for standard skyscraper engineering for the core as well.

Steel is good at spanning large distances which is good for office buildings because you want as much flexible column free space as possible, but for hotels and residential, you don't need to span large distances because the biggest rooms are not particularly big. They used steel for the lower floors containing the event space because they want bigger spans there, because obviously a banquet room needs to be wider than 10 feet or whatever.

Let's look at the highrises that had been constructed downtown in the past 50 years. RenCen. Interior constructed with a maxed on concrete. Commercial Tower; an ugly outdated design for the 90s that have a cement or concrete shell. 150 Jefferson; oddly pinkish colored concert shelling. Compuware Building; concrete shell including the parking structure. The People Mover; built for concrete. It's true that steel buildings uses cement slabs for flooring. However, Detroit keep using or developers for one reason or another keep using the old, outdated, expensive, concrete material for their high rises. Many including Gilbert probably had to deviate from their original plans in order to include excessive amount of concrete in the projects

**Gistok** · July-03-22, 11:21 AM

^Stasu1213 That pink stuff on 150 West Jefferson is called GRANITE... and it is more expensive than glass and steel construction.

Also, you forgot to mention the 621 ft. Ally Building, formerly Comerica Tower, formerly One Detroit Center... built 1991-93 in a Post Modern style with a Flemish Gothic fancy top... made of WHITE GRANITE.

**Jason** · July-03-22, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

Let's look at the highrises that had been constructed downtown in the past 50 years. RenCen. Interior constructed with a maxed on concrete. Commercial Tower; an ugly outdated design for the 90s that have a cement or concrete shell. 150 Jefferson; oddly pinkish colored concert shelling. Compuware Building; concrete shell including the parking structure. The People Mover; built for concrete. It's true that steel buildings uses cement slabs for flooring. However, Detroit keep using or developers for one reason or another keep using the old, outdated, expensive, concrete material for their high rises. Many including Gilbert probably had to deviate from their original plans in order to include excessive amount of concrete in the projects

The Ren Cen offices, Comerica Tower, 150 West Jefferson, the Compuware Building, and also the Guardian Building and Penobscot Building and the vast majority of skyscrapers downtown are steel structures with exterior walls that are not an important part of the structure [[it's possible that some of them are using the external walls as shear walls, but they could have designed for shear forces in other ways).

The Ren Cen's hotel, Millender Center, Trolley Plaza, Greektown Hotel are concrete buildings. Some of those have exposed concrete facades and some are completely covered in glass. Hudson's tower will mostly be concrete but the facade will be entirely glass other than some non structural vertical terra cotta piers.

Almost all "brick houses" here are actually wood houses with brick facades which are not part of the structure.

How much glass the facade has depends on what you want, both aesthetically and functionally. Too much glass can have privacy issues and can have too much glare and heat from the sun.

The People Mover has very typical prestressed concrete beams. They're basically hollow concrete tubes that have steel cables inside that have been tightened to put the beam into compression. It's like holding a stack of coins horizontally by pushing the ends together with your fingers. Steel is more expensive so steel beams are only used when the span is too long for concrete.

Parking garages are almost entirely concrete. They have heavy dynamic loads because there are bunch of big heavy cars moving around. They have fireproofing requirements because of car fires. They're usually exposed to the elements. They also have natural spaces to put walls between the parking aisles.

**stasu1213** · July-03-22, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by Jason

The Ren Cen offices, Comerica Tower, 150 West Jefferson, the Compuware Building, and also the Guardian Building and Penobscot Building and the vast majority of skyscrapers downtown are steel structures with exterior walls that are not an important part of the structure [[it's possible that some of them are using the external walls as shear walls, but they could have designed for shear forces in other ways).

The Ren Cen's hotel, Millender Center, Trolley Plaza, Greektown Hotel are concrete buildings. Some of those have exposed concrete facades and some are completely covered in glass. Hudson's tower will mostly be concrete but the facade will be entirely glass other than some non structural vertical terra cotta piers.

Almost all "brick houses" here are actually wood houses with brick facades which are not part of the structure.

How much glass the facade has depends on what you want, both aesthetically and functionally. Too much glass can have privacy issues and can have too much glare and heat from the sun.

The People Mover has very typical prestressed concrete beams. They're basically hollow concrete tubes that have steel cables inside that have been tightened to put the beam into compression. It's like holding a stack of coins horizontally by pushing the ends together with your fingers. Steel is more expensive so steel beams are only used when the span is too long for concrete.

Parking garages are almost entirely concrete. They have heavy dynamic loads because there are bunch of big heavy cars moving around. They have fireproofing requirements because of car fires. They're usually exposed to the elements. They also have natural spaces to put walls between the parking aisles.

Penobscot and Guardian buildings were both built during a different Era when concrete was more the trend

**andyguard** · July-05-22, 07:24 PM

Regarding the switch from steel to concrete, I was able to find another skyscraper that's a similar hybrid: the 49 story FMC Tower in Philly.

Construction photo showing the transition from steel to concrete:
Turner Construction on Twitter

Here's an article about it:
A Concrete Building on Top of a Steel Building

Looking at the construction picture, I noticed the core is only a couple of stories above the highest completed floor for this one, too. I might be too optimistic, but maybe the reason the core at Hudson's hasn't risen is because they need to keep it close because they'll be using the concrete pump [[or whatever it's called) at the top to pour concrete for the columns and floors immediately below.

**bigboat** · July-05-22, 08:03 PM

Just wondering if anyone has heard whether the Detroit Council has voted on the $60 million tax reduction per Bedrocks request. I understand the desire for the tax reduction. When you think about a $400 million increase in construction cost to complete this project would make anyone choke a little. That is an almost 40% increase. If this project had been completed sooner or at least the major construction completed maybe some of this cost increase could have been overcome.

**313WX** · July-05-22, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by bigboat

Just wondering if anyone has heard whether the Detroit Council has voted on the $60 million tax reduction per Bedrocks request. I understand the desire for the tax reduction. When you think about a $400 million increase in construction cost to complete this project would make anyone choke a little. That is an almost 40% increase. If this project had been completed sooner or at least the major construction completed maybe some of this cost increase could have been overcome.

They tabled it again for a 3rd time.

**Gistok** · July-06-22, 12:33 AM

Originally Posted by bigboat

Just wondering if anyone has heard whether the Detroit Council has voted on the $60 million tax reduction per Bedrocks request. I understand the desire for the tax reduction. When you think about a $400 million increase in construction cost to complete this project would make anyone choke a little. That is an almost 40% increase. If this project had been completed sooner or at least the major construction completed maybe some of this cost increase could have been overcome.

You bring up a very good point. Yes, the pandemic slowed them down by a few months... but they've been foot dragging for much longer than that. Had they not been so putzy for the last few years, at least all of the framework for the project would have been done by now.

Yeah the steel tariffs [not just Chinese steel, but steel worldwide] didn't help, but I don't blame Trump for that... many of the tariffs have continued under Biden.

An article about steel tariffs... more of a Catch-22 situation...
https://www.americanactionforum.org/...st-of-tariffs/

One can certainly understand the City Council's hesitation on doling out more money.

**bigboat** · July-06-22, 04:37 AM

[QUOTE=Gistok;626355]You bring up a very good point. Yes, the pandemic slowed them down by a few months... but they've been foot dragging for much longer than that. Had they not been so putzy for the last few years, at least all of the framework for the project would have been done by now.

I think I read in the Detroit News that Michigan state law requires a final vote within 60 days of the original application which I think was done in March. So, maybe in the mean time Bedrocks can either drag their feet some more or reduce the size of the tower portion of this development. Which I think we all agree Detroit needs badly.

**stasu1213** · July-06-22, 05:56 AM

Maybe Gilbert had bitten off more than he could chew on this project. The project would had been completed by now had the tower wasn't included. The late Tony Goldman had said that Detroit should not be made into a metropolis. It should be redeveloped as a town which it is. Gilbert had almost singlehandedly revitalized downtown Detroit. However he is trying to force a fit by building a tall skyscraper without looking at the forecast of the city. He still have an opportunity to dismantle the tower portion or put a temporary height cap on it until things will get better in the city as well as the country.

**Satiricalivory** · July-06-22, 11:50 AM

^ Can you give it a rest? How many times are you going to say the same thing over and over again?

We get it man, you don't think/don't want them to build a tower. Too bad.

They're not going to dismantle anything, you sound insane.

**southen** · July-06-22, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by Satiricalivory

^ Can you give it a rest? How many times are you going to say the same thing over and over again?

We get it man, you don't think/don't want them to build a tower. Too bad.

They're not going to dismantle anything, you sound insane.

While I completely disagree with stasu1213's take on it the same could be said to you. I noticed you were pretty quiet once the Gilbert stooge got on camera saying the only way they can get the $400 million to complete the project is through this abatement. Doesn't exactly paint the picture that all is well with the project, no?

**Satiricalivory** · July-06-22, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by southen

While I completely disagree with stasu1213's take on it the same could be said to you. I noticed you were pretty quiet once the Gilbert stooge got on camera saying the only way they can get the $400 million to complete the project is through this abatement. Doesn't exactly paint the picture that all is well with the project, no?

I'm not quiet. I took a break from this place because I couldn't take the doomer stupidity anymore. Not worth my energy.

They started this project knowing well that they would have to finance it themselves and get financing later. So nothing really new here.

It tells you that city property taxes are way too high more than anything else, every new development gets a tax break on the property taxes. The Huntington tower did also, Michigan Central got way more than 60 million.

Council will pass the break because they're not stupid and Duggan will pressure them, but they'll get something out of it to make it look like a win for constituents. They have no choice really since they already approved the special tax zone in 2017.

**stasu1213** · July-06-22, 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by Satiricalivory

^ Can you give it a rest? How many times are you going to say the same thing over and over again?

We get it man, you don't think/don't want them to build a tower. Too bad.

They're not going to dismantle anything, you sound insane.

Wrong! I was for the tower bring built. I was one of a few first to say on this site that the height maybe scaled back for one reason or another.

**bigboat** · July-07-22, 04:11 AM

Observing the You Tube video from July 6, 2022 there is no doubt Bedrock is continuing construction on the Hudson's tower with conversion to reinforced concrete. Can they build a 685' tower that tall with reinforced concrete, does anyone know. I also think it can be said that this building will not make the completion date of 2024.

**Gistok** · July-07-22, 08:46 AM

The answer is very much a yes.

When the Renaissance Center was built from 1973-77, the 4 steel frame office towers went up quickly, but the reinforced concrete taller hotel tower was slower to rise...

https://www.ahealthiermichigan.org/w...689.225869.jpg

**Dmberko11** · July-07-22, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by bigboat

Observing the You Tube video from July 6, 2022 there is no doubt Bedrock is continuing construction on the Hudson's tower with conversion to reinforced concrete. Can they build a 685' tower that tall with reinforced concrete, does anyone know. I also think it can be said that this building will not make the completion date of 2024.

Absolutely. Where I live in Austin, there's a tower going up that'll be 876' and 66 floors. Reinforced concrete. They're building another one over 1000 feet that's started construction. I bet it's reinforced concrete. I'm glad bedrock switched to this method as it's MUCH cheaper. I can't get over the construction cost in metro Detroit. Way too damn high

**stasu1213** · July-09-22, 07:06 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

The answer is very much a yes.

When the Renaissance Center was built from 1973-77, the 4 steel frame office towers went up quickly, but the reinforced concrete taller hotel tower was slower to rise...

https://www.ahealthiermichigan.org/w...689.225869.jpg

Looking at the date in the lower left corner the whole complex was complete within a year and opened in March of 77. Not blaming Bedrock nor Gilbert for the complete slowdown on the Hudson site. The whole complex would had been completed by now if they had their way

**bigboat** · July-10-22, 06:05 AM

Observing the You Tube video from July 9th indicates they have changed the construction process completely. They are now installing some very large metal type cages around the perimeter of the floor presently under construction. Very different from what they have been doing with the steel beam and steel post construction. Maybe this new process is required for complete reinforced concrete construction. We have talked about cost and this new process looks more expensive as it requires more skilled trades to build the forms and also a much longer process.