Monroe Block Development

**KnnNike** · September-11-20, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by JonWylie

Interesting, I didn't realize they were going to need a crane for the Book building. I guess that means completion is still a while out?

Yeah; their website originally said 2020, then I saw 2022 or 2023. I was looking at houses recently, and my agent said she is friends with the wife of one of the general contractors on the project. According to her/him, there have been [[and continue to be) significant delays with building materials and equipment.

I wouldn't be surprised if this bumps back to 2024, quite honestly

**southen** · September-11-20, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Ryan, do you know if that garage going to be one of those automated ones [[like the Free Press Building), or a "ramp" variety? That site seems kind of small for a ramp variety parking garage.

Im not sure if it will be automated like the Free Press Building but I believe the plan is for an elevator vs. having a traditional ramp.

**NSortzi** · September-11-20, 07:12 PM

Has there been any renderings released of the garage? It’s going to incorporate the two story building currently on the site, correct?

**motorcity** · December-19-20, 06:29 PM

Update? 35-stories, right?

**Detroit Stylin** · December-19-20, 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by motorcity

Update? 35-stories, right?

Why are you even here?

**Gistok** · December-19-20, 11:36 PM

If you look at her 58 post thread history since this newbie has been here...

https://www.detroityes.com/mb/search...id=3037841&pp=

She's our new mascot... Debbie Downer...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZ1AjaNjack

**enio** · December-20-20, 12:39 PM

The Hudson block development is the real deal. However, Bedrock's news releases about the Monroe Block amount to little more than smoke and mirrors. Their latest announcement for the Monroe Block can be found here:

https://www.deadlinedetroit.com/arti..._blocks_parcel

At this point, Bedrock's credibility as far as the Monroe Block development is almost nil. Passage of the Gilbert Bill, years of promises of construction and the best that Bedrock can offer is a temporary drive in theater and a no touch playground.

It is my understanding that that one of the conditions for tax incentives is the completion of construction in 2023. Perhaps I'm in error, but there doesn't seem to be any sense of urgency on the part of Bedrock to meet the deadline for the the Monroe Block development. The drive-in is no more than a ludicrous stall tactic

**K-slice** · January-12-21, 12:33 PM

Update Via the Detroit News today, the drive-in is a go!
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...et/6630347002/

Can you really blame Bedrock for putting this on hold while the future of dense commercial office space is in question? I for one don't buy into the "new normal" being work from home for one second, but then again if I was about to invest millions of dollars into new office buildings I would be cautions too.

This programing is still going to bring people to the city, generate dollars, and activate a space that has been nothing but a surface lot for decades. Even if you decry the development delay you must agree that this space is in the best hands possible right now.

**Danny** · January-12-21, 12:43 PM

Horrible! a delayed Campus Martius Building transformed into a snotty drive-in movie theatre! What is Gilbert thinking! He's losing millions.

**motorcity** · January-12-21, 12:44 PM

It's high time to claw back the over $618 million in public incentives.

**Atticus** · January-12-21, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by K-slice

Update Via the Detroit News today, the drive-in is a go!
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...et/6630347002/

Can you really blame Bedrock for putting this on hold while the future of dense commercial office space is in question? I for one don't buy into the "new normal" being work from home for one second, but then again if I was about to invest millions of dollars into new office buildings I would be cautions too.

This programing is still going to bring people to the city, generate dollars, and activate a space that has been nothing but a surface lot for decades. Even if you decry the development delay you must agree that this space is in the best hands possible right now.

Going to disagree. This is not a good sign. First you have the Emagine guy saying “this [[drive-in) is going to be profitable”. That means it is likely going to be operating for a while. Even a concept as simple as this has some amount of fixed costs, that are basically paid off over time from the revenue received... with the emphasis on “over time”. The sooner construction starts, the sooner they can’t make drive-in revenue. And while I typically want any downtown business to do well financially, hearing this drive-in will be profitable is actually somewhat depressing to me, because it means construction is not coming soon.

More importantly, just build the thing. The office tower overlooks Campus Martius. It would be prime as prime can be in Detroit, with that location’s visibility. If this new tower can’t profitably sell office space, than all of Downtown is in trouble. I don’t believe that to be the case. Sure WFH may deflate the demand... but a new office tower overlooking Campus Martius should be office space for visibility reasons alone. Holistically, much better to build this as office space, and later convert another lower-visibility existing office space [[in another building somewhere else) to residential use should demand patterns significantly change. And all that will take a few years for things to shake out anyway. But start construction now, and in a few years when construction is completed, the structure would be well timed to meet the post-pandemic economy. Build now, bring construction workers from elsewhere back to Michigan [[and lower long term construction labor costs by increasing worker supply) while everywhere else “waits and sees”, and enjoy the benefits of starting now and not later.

**Seven&wyo** · January-12-21, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by Atticus

Going to disagree. This is not a good sign. First you have the Emagine guy saying “this [[drive-in) is going to be profitable”. That means it is likely going to be operating for a while. Even a concept as simple as this has some amount of fixed costs, that are basically paid off over time from the revenue received... with the emphasis on “over time”. The sooner construction starts, the sooner they can’t make drive-in revenue. And while I typically want any downtown business to do well financially, hearing this drive-in will be profitable is actually somewhat depressing to me, because it means construction is not coming soon.

More importantly, just build the thing. The office tower overlooks Campus Martius. It would be prime as prime can be in Detroit, with that locations visibility. If this new tower can’t profitably sell office space, than all of Downtown is in trouble. I don’t believe that to be the case. Sure WFH may deflate the demand... but a new office tower overlooking Campus Martius would be prime as prime can be. And it will take a few years for things to shake out anyway. Start construction now, and a few years when construction is completed, the structure would be well timed to meet future market demand.

“Just build the thing” you say that as if it’s some legos you bought your grandkids and not a SKYSCRAPER.

**DetroiterOnTheWestCoast** · January-12-21, 02:05 PM

Thirty years ago as I looked down on the vacant, boarded historic Monroe Block from my 22nd floor office in the First National Building, I said that it was a terrible mistake to not restore the Block. Including, of course, the National Theater. If only I could have waived a magic wand...

**casscorridor** · January-12-21, 03:10 PM

A drive-in movie theater means a hundred oversized pickups, SUVs and crossovers spewing exhaust for two hours. Sounds wonderful, great for Campus Martius, I'm sure visitors will love breathing in the fumes!

**Scottathew** · January-12-21, 04:13 PM

Yeah, I'm not really that excited about it. It's a definite sign that this project is on hold for now.

**Gistok** · January-12-21, 04:32 PM

First of all this sounds like a good idea....

For those of you who weren't around when the Renaissance Center was completed... it siphoned thousands of people out of existing downtown buildings and into the shiny new Class A RenCen. It depressed the existing downtown building occupancy rate for many years.

The 310,000 sq. ft. of One Campus Martius coming online, the 170,000 sq. ft. of the Book Tower commercial space coming online, and then the 400,000 sq. ft. Hudson's block portion coming online... we don't even know what the needed space requirements will be when the pandemic is over yet. Do we want to build another tower on speculation helping to suppress the office market downtown??

Until Gilbert is ready to start building, I think this is an interesting idea for the Monroe block... which ironically started out as Detroit's first theatre district from 1905 to 1920.

Giving the drive-in patrons the option of ordering deliverable carryouts from hurting downtown restaurants, is another good idea.

As for exhaust fumes of just 63 cars.... how does that compare to the 10s of thousands of cars that go thru that intersection daily, some waiting at traffic lights?? Sounds like a drop in the bucket compared to the number of cars in the city every hour.

As for what Motorcity has said.... "that's nice"...

**K-slice** · January-12-21, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by Seven&wyo

“Just build the thing” you say that as if it’s some legos you bought your grandkids and not a SKYSCRAPER.

My thought exactly... Anyone in this position would have a "wait and see" attitude at this point. Gilberts own employees still aren't back downtown so he has entire buildings sitting vacant and no way to fill them.

Anyone who is just coming to realize this project is on hold was ignoring the writing on the wall for the last 9 months. HOWEVER, the fact that Bedrock is willing to put this drive in together for the time being shows their level of investment in the city and desire to bring people downtown as much as possible. It would be very easy to just ignore the site and let it sit vacant.

**Atticus** · January-12-21, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

First of all this sounds like a good idea....

For those of you who weren't around when the Renaissance Center was completed... it siphoned thousands of people out of existing downtown buildings and into the shiny new Class A RenCen. It depressed the existing downtown building occupancy rate for many years.

The 310,000 sq. ft. of One Campus Martius coming online, the 170,000 sq. ft. of the Book Tower commercial space coming online, and then the 400,000 sq. ft. Hudson's block portion coming online... we don't even know what the needed space requirements will be when the pandemic is over yet. Do we want to build another tower on speculation helping to suppress the office market downtown??

Until Gilbert is ready to start building, I think this is an interesting idea for the Monroe block... which ironically started out as Detroit's first theatre district from 1905 to 1920.

Giving the drive-in patrons the option of ordering deliverable carryouts from hurting downtown restaurants, is another good idea.

As for exhaust fumes of just 63 cars.... how does that compare to the 10s of thousands of cars that go thru that intersection daily, some waiting at traffic lights?? Sounds like a drop in the bucket compared to the number of cars in the city every hour.

As for what Motorcity has said.... "that's nice"...

Very familiar about the RenCen situation, but this is a whole different scale. This is one building, and the % increase in office space added by the RenCen dwarfs whatever % increase that will come from just this one building. One building, even at 500’, is not going to singlehandedly saturate the market like the RenCen did.

As mentioned in my previous post, an office tower is the best use for that site given the high visibility and value visibility brings to a business. What was designed [[previous renderings) is ideal for that site in the long run, and that is why it should be built now, when it will be easier to attract construction workers from other places “waiting it out”.

If the new argument is we should leave vacant lots empty, then maybe the Illitches deserve an apology. The worst case of building now is this development causes a small amount of Class C office space elsewhere to convert to residential, which is still a net gain for the city. The risk of waiting too long is that the tax credits run out, and Detroit gets a repeat of the stick built City Club apartments [[Statler site) on this high profile location. Much worse scenario. I credit the architect and Bedrock for coming up with the right design before, but now it seems they are unfortunately hesitant to follow through.

Finally, the lot is an eyesore and a huge turn off. When business folk from out-of-town visit, they see a vacant lot standing smack dab in one of the most prime locations in the city. And that image reinforces the notion that Detroit is dying, because why else would a prime site like that not be developed? Detroit needs to change that mindset and be bold. That’s what the original design did. Fate favors the bold, but it seems like Bedrock is drifting in the other direction as of late. I think they are making a mistake not building it now. Because when Bedrock favored the bold before, they benefitted greatly.

**ABetterDetroit** · January-12-21, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by K-slice

My thought exactly... Anyone in this position would have a "wait and see" attitude at this point. Gilberts own employees still aren't back downtown so he has entire buildings sitting vacant and no way to fill them.

Anyone who is just coming to realize this project is on hold was ignoring the writing on the wall for the last 9 months. HOWEVER, the fact that Bedrock is willing to put this drive in together for the time being shows their level of investment in the city and desire to bring people downtown as much as possible. It would be very easy to just ignore the site and let it sit vacant.

Anyone with common sense would understand the holding pattern on developing this parcel in the current crisis we are experiencing in this country. The drive-in idea is certainly open to debate if it is a good temporary use of the block but criticism of why construction is not underway this year or last year defies basic business logic.

What is it about Detroit that causes some posters to go through the mental gymnastics to pile on the city at any opportunity they can find in every single post they make? Anyone who has lived here long enough knows the answer exactly. We have heard it repeatedly for years. The code words change from time to time but the reason for the ‘why’ they hate on Detroit so much does not.

**EGrant** · January-12-21, 08:40 PM

Yeah there seems to be somewhat of an overreaction about a drive-in theater in a parking lot that would have sat empty anyway.

Logistical question though, in the winter, do you leave your car on the whole movie? I've heard of some drive-ins providing small space heaters.

**Atticus** · January-12-21, 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

Anyone with common sense would understand the holding pattern on developing this parcel in the current crisis we are experiencing in this country. The drive-in idea is certainly open to debate if it is a good temporary use of the block but criticism of why construction is not underway this year or last year defies basic business logic.

What is it about Detroit that causes some posters to go through the mental gymnastics to pile on the city at any opportunity they can find in every single post they make? Anyone who has lived here long enough knows the answer exactly. We have heard it repeatedly for years. The code words change from time to time but the reason for the ‘why’ they hate on Detroit so much does not.

I definitely understand the “play it safe approach” of not building now, I just think it is the wrong choice in this case. Quicken Loans staying in Livonia would have also been playing it safe. The point is you can make big gains [[and losses) in situations with unknowns like this. But playing it safe never really gets you anywhere.

The other question is what are we “waiting to see”? If WFH means office demand permanently tanks to the point that a prominent building like this can’t sell, then Bedrock is going to have much bigger problems then the paying for the Monroe Block. It means that their whole business model is unsustainable. Now I don’t actually for a second believe that will be the case. Demand will obviously drop some, but I can’t see office space completely going away. But I don’t see what advantage playing it safe actually achieves, unless replacing the previous office design with another 8 story city club apartment complex would also be considered a success.

**401don** · January-13-21, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by Atticus

I definitely understand the “play it safe approach” of not building now, I just think it is the wrong choice in this case. Quicken Loans staying in Livonia would have also been playing it safe. The point is you can make big gains [[and losses) in situations with unknowns like this. But playing it safe never really gets you anywhere.

The other question is what are we “waiting to see”? If WFH means office demand permanently tanks to the point that a prominent building like this can’t sell, then Bedrock is going to have much bigger problems then the paying for the Monroe Block. It means that their whole business model is unsustainable. Now I don’t actually for a second believe that will be the case. Demand will obviously drop some, but I can’t see office space completely going away. But I don’t see what advantage playing it safe actually achieves, unless replacing the previous office design with another 8 story city club apartment complex would also be considered a success.

The other side of the argument is that, as you say, there will probably be a certain amount of decline in office demand. Meanwhile, based on everything we've heard, Bedrock hasn't been able to find tenants for the Hudson's Site. They are losing tremendous amounts of revenue downtown by not charging rent for all those retail stores and restaurants for a year or more by the time the pandemic is over. The Monroe block is not just a single structure but a whole series of buildings and you want them to just start building now based on spec?

**JonWylie** · January-13-21, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by 401don

Meanwhile, based on everything we've heard, Bedrock hasn't been able to find tenants for the Hudson's Site.

Where have you heard this?

**motorcity** · January-13-21, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by JonWylie

Where have you heard this?

Where have you heard about its financing or confirmed tenants, just as you’ll find similar details on the record for any genuine project of its magnitude in other cities? You haven’t. Why? ...

**motorcity** · January-13-21, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by EGrant

Yeah there seems to be somewhat of an overreaction about a drive-in theater in a parking lot that would have sat empty anyway.

Logistical question though, in the winter, do you leave your car on the whole movie? I've heard of some drive-ins providing small space heaters.

It’s not an overreaction when something like over $700 million in public dollars were involved in what is turning out to be fake promises. This drive-in makes us look like a sad deserted joke.