The Macomb County Question

[dtowncitylover]

"And Gman, tangibles would have been nice if funding was secured. Now that Macomb >failed us, the only tangible is RefleX which is only a 3 year pilot program. You can't >build a world class transit system and then ask for money. SMART and DDOT are still>competitors which means little federal dollars, had RTA passed they would've been under one umbrella."


If you build it they will come. That is a tangible? I've got some magic beans to sell if your interested. Point being, if your asking someone to kick in their dollars, you better show them a product. As for Smart and DDOT, they can be merged on paper and operating budgets combined with overlap eliminated. Problem is, who gets to be the boss and control the dollars?

Uh yes, transit personifies, so to speak, the phrase "if you build it they will come". That's literally how it works. The product was the master plan, better transit and more connectivity. I'm not sure how SMART and DDOT are supposed to improve themselves now, though DDOT is getting better, when nothing has changed really. The "merger" of SMART and DDOT was going to be the RTA.

And if people in Washington Township or Leonard didn't want the RTA, what makes you think they want to support DDOT? At least with the RTA, 85% of their money would stay in county.

[GMan]

dtowncitylover;517260]Uh yes, transit personifies, so to speak, the phrase "if you build it they will come". That's literally how it works. The product was the master plan, better transit and more connectivity. I'm not sure how SMART and DDOT are supposed to improve themselves now, though DDOT is getting better, when nothing has changed really. The "merger" of SMART and DDOT was going to be the RTA.

But where they would build it wont be where the money is being asked to come from.
It was pointed out that the home sprawl in that area wasn't conducive to mass transit, but hey we will take your money.

And if people in Washington Township or Leonard didn't want the RTA, what makes you think they want to support DDOT? At least with the RTA, 85% of their money would stay in county. Are the people in Washington or Leonard Twp. supporting smart now? I understand that some communities provide dial a ride to seniors or other people with mobility needs. Mass transit and a giant plan isn't a solution for that. I think most people are just sick of giant bureaucracies that eat up funding when a simple local solution does the trick.

[dtowncitylover]

dtowncitylover;517260]Uh yes, transit personifies, so to speak, the phrase "if you build it they will come". That's literally how it works. The product was the master plan, better transit and more connectivity. I'm not sure how SMART and DDOT are supposed to improve themselves now, though DDOT is getting better, when nothing has changed really. The "merger" of SMART and DDOT was going to be the RTA.

But where they would build it wont be where the money is being asked to come from.
It was pointed out that the home sprawl in that area wasn't conducive to mass transit, but hey we will take your money.

And if people in Washington Township or Leonard didn't want the RTA, what makes you think they want to support DDOT? At least with the RTA, 85% of their money would stay in county. Are the people in Washington or Leonard Twp. supporting smart now? I understand that some communities provide dial a ride to seniors or other people with mobility needs. Mass transit and a giant plan isn't a solution for that. I think most people are just sick of giant bureaucracies that eat up funding when a simple local solution does the trick.

Because transit benefits the WHOLE region. Which is what the Yes campaign failed to articulate. Washington does because Macomb in a full opt in county, Leonard does not because it's opt out. This mentality is the reason why Metro Detroit is not growing as a region. Your taxes aren't going to help poor black people get to work, our taxes are [[rather, were) going to help build a transit system to grow the local economy and become more attractive to visitors, [[potential) residents, and businesses. That's what the Yes campaign failed to say.

Dial a ride is nice for the disabled and seniors, but it doesn't help grow the economy more than those individual needs. We need a large ambitious plan if we want to join 21st century metropolises.

And as I said before, sprawl isn't conducive for transit but sorry SEMCOG, MDOT, and our local leaders brainwashed us into thinking this was the future and that's sustainable. It's not. You can't live in the exurbs and demand city amenities ASAP. But yes, if you want this region to be successful we all have to pay for it.

Also, I don't agree with the property taxes, I would much prefer a sales tax. However local sales taxes aren't allowed in Michigan and to change it would be a miracle considering our GOP legislature.

[GMan]

Because transit benefits the WHOLE region. Which is what the Yes campaign failed to articulate. Washington does because Macomb in a full opt in county, Leonard does not because it's opt out. This mentality is the reason why Metro Detroit is not growing as a region. Your taxes aren't going to help poor black people get to work, our taxes are [[rather, were) going to help build a transit system to grow the local economy and become more attractive to visitors, [[potential) residents, and businesses. That's what the Yes campaign failed to say.

Dial a ride is nice for the disabled and seniors, but it doesn't help grow the economy more than those individual needs. We need a large ambitious plan if we want to join 21st century metropolises.

And as I said before, sprawl isn't conducive for transit but sorry SEMCOG, MDOT, and our local leaders brainwashed us into thinking this was the future and that's sustainable. It's not. You can't live in the exurbs and demand city amenities ASAP. But yes, if you want this region to be successful we all have to pay for it.
D
Also, I don't agree with the property taxes, I would much prefer a sales tax. However local sales taxes aren't allowed in Michigan and to change it would be a miracle considering our GOP legislature.

Dtownlover I believe transit does benefit a region, but you have to want to be part of that region. Do people in Wash Twp. want to have RBT to Detroit? What percentage of people commute to downtown. I remember the initial ridership levels for the Ann Arbor N/S connector came in below desired levels. The call was "build it and they will come!" Funny thing is how the initial start up costs kept going up and up. Now the private company that wanted to start the service with limited capabilities got shoved aside for the bigger picture. "Federal Dollars!" But to get federal dollars you just need this, that and the next thing, all in place before startup. Guess what....ten years later, A.A. doesn't have a n/s connector train. Now US 23 is getting a flex lane. The planners should have let the private service attempt to test the business plan before the "tangibles" were sold to the communities and the Transit Authority penned and ready to collect taxes.
Start Small and build!

[dtowncitylover]

Dtownlover I believe transit does benefit a region, but you have to want to be part of that region. Do people in Wash Twp. want to have RBT to Detroit? What percentage of people commute to downtown. I remember the initial ridership levels for the Ann Arbor N/S connector came in below desired levels. The call was "build it and they will come!" Funny thing is how the initial start up costs kept going up and up. Now the private company that wanted to start the service with limited capabilities got shoved aside for the bigger picture. "Federal Dollars!" But to get federal dollars you just need this, that and the next thing, all in place before startup. Guess what....ten years later, A.A. doesn't have a n/s connector train. Now US 23 is getting a flex lane. The planners should have let the private service attempt to test the business plan before the "tangibles" were sold to the communities and the Transit Authority penned and ready to collect taxes.
Start Small and build!

WALLY failed because it seemed like no one truly cared about the project. Yes there was some talk about it, a page on SEMCOG's website, but for the most part there was no traction probably because there was no true funding source. I've never heard of a private service being talked about in the WALLY plan. And if it's anything like pre-Amtrak trains, it's going to end up be public anyways.

The RTA is completely different because there was to be a funding source, there was a master plan, and the RTA itself was the authority, and all we had to was approve it. WALLY had no funding source, it hasn't been planned very well, and AATA wanted Livingston County to join in creating WALLY but they said no.

And you're right, you do want to be part of a region. So let the RTA scrap all Macomb County routes and move on without them.

[ABetterDetroit]

WALLY failed because it seemed like no one truly cared about the project. Yes there was some talk about it, a page on SEMCOG's website, but for the most part there was no traction probably because there was no true funding source. I've never heard of a private service being talked about in the WALLY plan. And if it's anything like pre-Amtrak trains, it's going to end up be public anyways.

The RTA is completely different because there was to be a funding source, there was a master plan, and the RTA itself was the authority, and all we had to was approve it. WALLY had no funding source, it hasn't been planned very well, and AATA wanted Livingston County to join in creating WALLY but they said no.

And you're right, you do want to be part of a region. So let the RTA scrap all Macomb County routes and move on without them.

This is a rock solid plan, make a villain out of the regions that will not support the tax vehicle then go forward without them!

Lets call it "opt out". Clearly no other geographic locale will feel this way so let's do it all over with each community deciding if they want in.

Pay no mind that the decades long problem just skipped right back to where it's been firmly stuck long ago and then failed to solve the issue.

The most important part is to NEVER fight for a tax vehicle that could gain wider support and potentially raise even more of the needed funds.

[dtowncitylover]

This is a rock solid plan, make a villain out of the regions that will not support the tax vehicle then go forward without them!

Lets call it "opt out". Clearly no other geographic local will feel this way so let's do it all over with each community deciding if they want in.

Pay no mind that the decades long problem just skipped right back to where it's been firmly stuck long ago and then failed to solve the issue.

The most important part is to NEVER fight for a tax vehicle that could gain wider support that could potentially raise even more of the needed funds.

As I said in my OP, I am joking. I want Macomb County to be part of any RTA and the region but it's frustrating when they vote against their own self interests because they can't see the forest for the trees.

[GMan]

dtowncitylover;517266]WALLY failed because it seemed like no one truly cared about the project. Yes there was some talk about it, a page on SEMCOG's website, but for the most part there was no traction probably because there was no true funding source. I've never heard of a private service being talked about in the WALLY plan. And if it's anything like pre-Amtrak trains, it's going to end up be public anyways.
Great Lakes Central RR was the one who proposed starting a service over existing tracks in their operating R.O.W. Problem is to make it feasable tracks had to be upgraded to speed standards to allow for a reasonable route time. In comes state federal dollars. Next problem if speed is increased what about all the ungated grade crossings? Oh and federal dollars accepted mean you have to have to meet the A.D.A. standards from the start. Well now we need updated passenger cars. More state money. What about P.T.C. so system can operate with freight traffic? More federal dollars.... Now it's been 5 years we need to update the feasibility study....more money spent. Livingston county said no to local funding because their stats show a more easterly commute for the majority of their residents, not a southerly one... A.A. still wants it though so hey lets wrap it up in the E/W line......More studies needed. Hey how about a A.A. to Traverse City train...more studies. Oh yeah A.A. wants to update the Amtrak Station... More studies on best location and least enviromental impact...... and on and on and on...... Private consultants have made money over ten years and STILL NO SERVICE.....

The RTA is completely different because there was to be a funding source, there was a master plan, and the RTA itself was the authority, and all we had to was approve it. WALLY had no funding source, it hasn't been planned very well, and AATA wanted Livingston County to join in creating WALLY but they said no. See Above for this reason.
RTA should look at merging city / suburb lines and operate a few years with those budgets and savings before asking for a millage.

Ballot proposal could read.. "should the separate operated entities of DDOT and SMART be merged to take advantage of operating efficiencies gained through elimination of duplicate services competing for a limited ridership and to maximize the return on federal dollars with the savings going to expanding formerly under served routes throughout the combined region? YES/NO

​Hey it would have been a start.

And you're right, you do want to be part of a region. So let the RTA scrap all Macomb County routes and move on without them.[/QUOTE]