U-M Professor: War on Crime Fueled Detroit's Decline

[vetalalumni]

War on crime only affects people who are criminals.

Please check your excuses and try your luck again!

The war on crime has significant collateral damage which many law abiding citizens can attest to from experience.

I'm curious vetalalumni, can you expound on this?

Your saying that the intervention is causing harm to innocents that the original criminal act didn't?

Well, if 3 strikes means stealing 3 loaves of bread and getting a life sentence: there's your answer.

Thanks Canuck, but I was looking for the detrimental involvement of the innocent when policing criminal behavior.

Stealing food could be understandable in a extreme circumstances but we do have numerous safety nets to help the hungry.

So if stealing is acceptable behavior, how about stealing say a cell phone.
After all everyone needs to be connected.
What twisted logic do we want to apply in the absurdian logic that certain deviant behaviors are acceptable in an advanced society.

Case in point. Enroute to work being stopped by DPD and crudely subjected to a search. While officer # 1 rifled through my lunch container, officer # 2 circled behind me menacingly. Officer # 1 found my flavored coffee creamer and appeared disappointed when he realized it was not the dope he had initially accused me of having.

No apology. Instead, I received a scolding from officer # 1 about my traveling the area. I was late to work, unnerved and did not feel any safer.

[GMan]

Case in point. Enroute to work being stopped by DPD and crudely subjected to a search. While officer # 1 rifled through my lunch container, officer # 2 circled behind me menacingly. Officer # 1 found my flavored coffee creamer and appeared disappointed when he realized it was not the dope he had initially accused me of having.

No apology. Instead, I received a scolding from officer # 1 about my traveling the area. I was late to work, unnerved and did not feel any safer.

Yeah I've been profiled and stopped too. Police have to act towards you with distrust and be on their gaurd for their protection. And yes, don't expect an apology when they don't find anything.

Now is it better if they don't make an effort to stop crimes such as drug trafficing? That is what I seem to be hearing.

[Honky Tonk]

Now is it better if they don't make an effort to stop crimes such as drug trafficing? That is what I seem to be hearing.

No, it's not better, but they don't have to act like assholes because they're doing their job either.

[GMan]

No, it's not better, but they don't have to act like assholes because they're doing their job either.

Yeah it would be better if they were not overly aggressive a@@h@les but I understand their distancing stance because in 2 seconds the situation could turn ugly and that could mean the end of their life.

[Honky Tonk]

Yeah it would be better if they were not overly aggressive a@@h@les but I understand their distancing stance because in 2 seconds the situation could turn ugly and that could mean the end of their life.

Yeah, I totally agree with that part. I still get pulled over occasionally, even @ my age. I keep both hands on top of the steering wheel until I'm told to roll down the window, one hand. The younger the cop, the more cautious I am. A lot of would-be Wyatt Earp's out there itching to try out that new Glock 26. It's a difficult situation for both sides.

[noise]

Yeah, I totally agree with that part. I still get pulled over occasionally, even @ my age. I keep both hands on top of the steering wheel until I'm told to roll down the window, one hand. The younger the cop, the more cautious I am. A lot of would-be Wyatt Earp's out there itching to try out that new Glock 26. It's a difficult situation for both sides.

You know, it's funny...I'm under 40 and I've been pulled over once in the last 10+ years.

I will admit to speeding pretty much constantly. For six of the last 10 years, I commuted 90 miles one-way to work.

I have never gotten a ticket. I am white. I drive a CR-V [[and before that, a Subaru).

[Honky Tonk]

You know, it's funny...I'm under 40 and I've been pulled over once in the last 10+ years.

I will admit to speeding pretty much constantly. For six of the last 10 years, I commuted 90 miles one-way to work.

I have never gotten a ticket. I am white. I drive a CR-V [[and before that, a Subaru).

You're right, that is funny.

[Wesley Mouch]

No, it's not better, but they don't have to act like assholes because they're doing their job either.

What I think we have is a police force that has a certain number of assholes. And they may be racist. They may act on their racism. That is unacceptable.

But what's also unacceptable is the blanket assumption that cops are racist assholes, and thus all cops need to be sent to the re-education camp to get repaired.

The 'war on crime' harmed Detroit argument suggests that the 'war on crime' was the problem -- when most people believe that the real problem is the underlying crime that made the 'war' necessary.

Did crime harm Detroit. You bet.

Did the way crime was fought hard Detroit? Yes.

Is the best way to build trust between cops and citizens to call cops racist. No.

[GMan]

What I think we have is a police force that has a certain number of assholes. And they may be racist. They may act on their racism. That is unacceptable.

But what's also unacceptable is the blanket assumption that cops are racist assholes, and thus all cops need to be sent to the re-education camp to get repaired.

The 'war on crime' harmed Detroit argument suggests that the 'war on crime' was the problem -- when most people believe that the real problem is the underlying crime that made the 'war' necessary.

Did crime harm Detroit. You bet.

Did the way crime was fought hard Detroit? Yes.

Is the best way to build trust between cops and citizens to call cops racist. No.

Spot on Wesley.

[vetalalumni]

Yeah I've been profiled and stopped too. Police have to act towards you with distrust and be on their gaurd for their protection. And yes, don't expect an apology when they don't find anything.

Now is it better if they don't make an effort to stop crimes such as drug trafficing? That is what I seem to be hearing.

Law enforcement can and should observe and detect comprehensively. Someone who travels the same route daily without interacting with the visible dealers should not be detained while the dealers are operating nearby. Something is wrong if I can easily detect the dealers and law enforcement can't or won't.

[Honky Tonk]

Law enforcement can and should observe and detect comprehensively. Someone who travels the same route daily without interacting with the visible dealers should not be detained while the dealers are operating nearby. Something is wrong if I can easily detect the dealers and law enforcement can't or won't.

Exactly. One of my biggest pet peeves living in Detroit, outside the green zone, is the lack of, or selective, policing.

[GMan]

Law enforcement can and should observe and detect comprehensively. Someone who travels the same route daily without interacting with the visible dealers should not be detained while the dealers are operating nearby. Something is wrong if I can easily detect the dealers and law enforcement can't or won't.

You bring up a good point about being vested in the neighborhood that they patrol.
If someone has a vested interest in the neighborhood and perhaps lives in said neighborhood, they should be pretty in tune with dealings afoot in the hood.
DPD used to have a residency requirement and neighborhoods with resident police presence where the last to decline. Copper Canyon, the Parkway, ect...
That requirement was ruled illegal and with an additional income tax on residents and poor services to boot, those officers and others with the means that could move out did.

Now flash ahead to the present neighborhoods where the police come in to their precient to do their jobs and try to make it out alive. They see the same interactions day after day and respond to calls. Then they get no co-operation from the neighbors calling the police to help, because of fear of retaliation.

What are police supposed to do then? They try to deal with it but their hands are tied. If they are aggressive they are labeled the enemy and the perpetrator is labeled the "victim." The insanity makes them yearn for the end of their shift so they go home to the safety of their stable community on the outskirts of the city and escape the madness. But that's just my opinion.

[Wesley Mouch]

Law enforcement can and should observe and detect comprehensively. Someone who travels the same route daily without interacting with the visible dealers should not be detained while the dealers are operating nearby. Something is wrong if I can easily detect the dealers and law enforcement can't or won't.

Law enforcement isn't easy. Exactly what criteria would you use to decide who is deserving of 'detention'?

The whole idea behind 'stop and frisk' was to give the officers the ability to 'stop and frisk' people acting in what appeared to be a menacing way. It gave officers a tool to be proactive with drug dealers who were operating in the open. We have decided to take that tool away because it was sometimes being abused.

In the end, the officers have to make judgements. Decide who to 'detain'. Who to 'stop'. If we take that power from them and make every 'stop' require a ream of paper and a report to the ACLU [[see NYC and Judge Sundelin), we are getting what we asked for. A police force that's collectively discouraged from the kind of judgement you request.

See Ferguson Effect and the current increase in crimes for more info.

[canuck]

Law enforcement isn't easy. Exactly what criteria would you use to decide who is deserving of 'detention'?

The whole idea behind 'stop and frisk' was to give the officers the ability to 'stop and frisk' people acting in what appeared to be a menacing way. It gave officers a tool to be proactive with drug dealers who were operating in the open. We have decided to take that tool away because it was sometimes being abused.

In the end, the officers have to make judgements. Decide who to 'detain'. Who to 'stop'. If we take that power from them and make every 'stop' require a ream of paper and a report to the ACLU [[see NYC and Judge Sundelin), we are getting what we asked for. A police force that's collectively discouraged from the kind of judgement you request.

See Ferguson Effect and the current increase in crimes for more info.

I just came back from a twelve day trip to Budapest last Friday, and your opinion sounds like the kind of bullshit the Russki culture heaped on Hungarians for 45 years. Jesus loves you more than you will ever know Wesley.

[Wesley Mouch]

Case in point. Enroute to work being stopped by DPD and crudely subjected to a search. While officer # 1 rifled through my lunch container, officer # 2 circled behind me menacingly. Officer # 1 found my flavored coffee creamer and appeared disappointed when he realized it was not the dope he had initially accused me of having.

No apology. Instead, I received a scolding from officer # 1 about my traveling the area. I was late to work, unnerved and did not feel any safer.

White Boy Wesley had a similar experience. Menacing cops. Looking for a problem where none existed. Disappointed that this wasn't their moment. Rude scolding.

I got over it. And while the interaction wasn't the best and sure required some better police tactics, I got over it. I didn't decide to blame the cops for everything wrong in the world, and reminded myself just how bad the world would be if we didn't have cops protecting us.

The problem with the anti-'war on crime' brigade is that they over-estimate the harm of 'over-policing' and underestimate the harm of 'under-policing'. Read the reasonable Ray1936's note on racism in the bad-old-days. Existed? Sure. Rampant? No. We have let the radicals drive this debate. And the baby in the bathwater being tossed out is good policing in bad neighborhoods whose only hope for the future is public safety. They're gonna get deprived of good policing by do-gooders with attitude.

[canuck]

White Boy Wesley had a similar experience. Menacing cops. Looking for a problem where none existed. Disappointed that this wasn't their moment. Rude scolding.

I got over it. And while the interaction wasn't the best and sure required some better police tactics, I got over it. I didn't decide to blame the cops for everything wrong in the world, and reminded myself just how bad the world would be if we didn't have cops protecting us.

The problem with the anti-'war on crime' brigade is that they over-estimate the harm of 'over-policing' and underestimate the harm of 'under-policing'. Read the reasonable Ray1936's note on racism in the bad-old-days. Existed? Sure. Rampant? No. We have let the radicals drive this debate. And the baby in the bathwater being tossed out is good policing in bad neighborhoods whose only hope for the future is public safety. They're gonna get deprived of good policing by do-gooders with attitude.

Yes, and perhaps growing the prison population to twice the present number would make you feel safer. Then, the bad neighborhoods may shrink or disappear according to your logic. I suppose it has to do with continual reinforcement of bad vs good, good vs bad, high contrast definition of society. So the Police force in Ferguson should either grow or be more aggressive in its interactions with suspected wrongdoers. This concept of policing is consistent with cities and neighborhoods that implode time and again. Standoffs and riots don't happen in the good parts of town. Hoodie wearing teens of the black persuasion have a better chance of bringing home a memento from a walk in a proper hood. They either bring back stolen goods or a customary frisking for
looking the part. In which case the good hoods don't need more cops, they need to home in on the undesirables. The undesirables need to know they are only wanted in the bad neighborhoods, or in prison.