Hart Plaza Future

**gthomas** · June-27-16, 01:03 AM

Ok, anybody else feel that Hart Plaza is getting worse daily. Many plans and proposals has been floating around for years now. No real progress, seem stalled. No sign of maintaining it either.

I feel this important plot of land between the RenCen and Cobo Hall is essential to downtown rebirth. It's embarrassing taking visitor through there to get to the riverfront. Most events and festivals has left Hart Plaza for more appealing and updated areas, despite the perfect location.

It's not pedestrian friendly, lack of landscape and accessibility. Poorly designed and a concrete paradise. Hart Plaza definitely needs a major haul, hopefully soon. Everything around Hart Plaza is booming with newly renovated developments and upgrades in all directions.

I'm hoping the city is still planning to revamp Hart Plaza into an international, stunning "one of a kind" Plaza. Similar to Chicago's Millennium Park. It's the last piece of the puzzle.

* Whatever happen to the new LED Hart Plaza entrance sign? [[Stalled too)

**southen** · June-27-16, 05:18 AM

A redesign is definitely necessary at this point. The plaza is a dead zone when there aren't any events and it could use an update to make it more of a destination for people on non-event days. The Ford Auditorium site needs to be worked into the park as well which can add some much needed green space. The only problem is that the city isn't in a place financially to invest in the park, so if anything is to happen it is going to have to come from the private sector or spearheaded by the Riverfront Conservancy. Sadly I think it is going to be years before we see any movement on it.

**Zacha341** · June-27-16, 06:05 AM

I miss the HP Fountain being turned on! Last I heard the metal fixtures had been stolen and not replaced. Sad. I used to attend the annual Charles H. Wright MAAH Museum's African World festival there for many years! Saw Isaac Hayes there as well as Hugh Masekela. The Jazz Fest still uses the full space well, the Tech fest too. Still it needs an update.

**Gannon** · June-27-16, 06:34 AM

I think they're waiting on Horus' people getting back to 'em for a meeting...I guess there is a lot to consider redesigning this site.

http://chadstuemke.com/stargate-detroit-i/

**ekleezy** · June-27-16, 06:43 AM

Originally Posted by Zacha341

I miss the HP Fountain being turned on! Last I hear the metal fixtures had been stolen and not replaced. Sad. I used to attend the annual Charles H. Wright MAAH Museum's African World festival there for many years! Saw Isaac Hayes there as well as Hugh Masekela. The Jazz Fest still uses the full space well, the Tech fest too. Still it needs an update.

The fountain was on when I was there a couple weeks ago.

**Gannon** · June-27-16, 06:37 AM

This might be easier to read...

http://michigansotherside.com/detroit-stargate/

**Zacha341** · June-27-16, 06:49 AM

Awesome! I did not know that. Great news...

...!

**mikeg19** · June-27-16, 07:40 AM

If they do their homework, hop on 94 and take the ride to Chicago to see Millennium Park. Hart plaza isn't as big, but take a cue from a city who did it right and turned a barren waste land train yard into a fantastic park and gathering place. Hart Plaza needs to become a destination and connection to downtown. Essentially the following needs to happen:

- Rip out every inch of cement and replace it with greenspace.
- Incorporate the plaza into the Riverwalk
- Small restaurant/food trucks
- Boating access
- Elevated walkway[[s) over Jefferson to connect to downtown [[submerging and covering Jefferson all the way from COBO to 375 would be ideal, but most likely too cost prohibitive)

- Other ideas?

**401don** · June-27-16, 08:33 AM

I'm going to Chicago in 3 wks for a Tigers series [[poor me). Looking forward to seeing Millennium Park. From what I read, the budget went way over when it was built and I'm sure this is a concern for HP. Chicago gets tons of tourists and has lots of downtown residents. I wonder how many office workers stroll over to it. It probably wasn't designed for that but HP does need to find a way to attract office workers along Jefferson to cross over on their lunch. It's so uninviting now it appears much further than it is and who wants to sit on the concrete anyway. Signature parks are not as easy to design as one might think and you have to live with the consequences for years. Hopefully they can do as good a job as CMart and the riverfront.

**Bham1982** · June-27-16, 08:52 AM

Millennium Park cost just under a half-billion dollars, and was funded by former Mayor Daley basically forcing corporations with business interests with the city to donate in a pay for play scheme. So not exactly a model.

**mikeg19** · June-27-16, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Millennium Park cost just under a half-billion dollars, and was funded by former Mayor Daley basically forcing corporations with business interests with the city to donate in a pay for play scheme. So not exactly a model.

Kwame could have made that happen.....

Serious note though, something along the lines of a Millennium park as far as design. They went way over the top with amenities and I think they even had Ghery or Caltrava design aspects of the park and its structures. Obviously cost a pretty penny if those guys were involved.

**Gistok** · June-27-16, 12:53 PM

I don't really know what would make Hart Plaza better, besides maintenance.

Probably the bigger question should be... why was it stopped being used for major functions? I used to enjoy attending some of the ethnic festivals down here in the 1980s. But they all left for the suburbs... as have recent event holders. Why? Certainly not for better park spaces...

Also the idea of redo-ing the park.... it was designed by world reknowned architect I. M. Pei... do we need more current world reknowned architects to redesign it into another flavor of the decade?

And what about those underground areas that never quite took off... success wise? Do we just fill them in for more grass and trees?

I'm not convinced that an entire redo of the park is necessary.... but some way to entice people down there for lunch may be a good start... but not by starting from scratch.

**erikd** · July-10-16, 04:21 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

I don't really know what would make Hart Plaza better, besides maintenance.

Probably the bigger question should be... why was it stopped being used for major functions? I used to enjoy attending some of the ethnic festivals down here in the 1980s. But they all left for the suburbs... as have recent event holders. Why? Certainly not for better park spaces...

Also the idea of redo-ing the park.... it was designed by world reknowned architect I. M. Pei... do we need more current world reknowned architects to redesign it into another flavor of the decade?

And what about those underground areas that never quite took off... success wise? Do we just fill them in for more grass and trees?

I'm not convinced that an entire redo of the park is necessary.... but some way to entice people down there for lunch may be a good start... but not by starting from scratch.

I love you, Gistok, and I frequently agree with your opinions, but not on this one, my friend.

Hart Plaza stands as an iconic example of exactly what not to do in a public space. In a city starved for quality public spaces, the development of Hart Plaza in the 1970s only gave us more harsh pavement and foreboding dystopian "public space."

The abysmal Hart Plaza cement-scape was profoundly terrible, but challenged by an equally dystopian and inhospitable Kennedy Square, and only slightly less inhumane paved-over Capitol Park.

All due respect for Pei and Nagouchi given, but Hart Plaza was a poorly designed public space from the get-go, and it is a shitty public space to this day.

The absolute failure of Hart Plaza is no longer a matter of subjective opinion, but one of objective fact. As Hart Plaza continues to fail as a miserable public space, the adjacent Riverwalk and Campus Martius Park thrive and serve as examples of quality urban public spaces.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the mid- 20th century architectural "geniuses" didn't know a fucking thing about how to design a public space that is comfortable and pleasing for actual people. We see this every single day, as the people of Detroit fill the Riverwalk, Campus Martius, and every other public space around Hart Plaza, while leaving that terribly designed park empty, and for good reason.

**Jason** · July-11-16, 01:56 AM

Originally Posted by erikd

I love you, Gistok, and I frequently agree with your opinions, but not on this one, my friend.

Hart Plaza stands as an iconic example of exactly what not to do in a public space. In a city starved for quality public spaces, the development of Hart Plaza in the 1970s only gave us more harsh pavement and foreboding dystopian "public space."

The abysmal Hart Plaza cement-scape was profoundly terrible, but challenged by an equally dystopian and inhospitable Kennedy Square, and only slightly less inhumane paved-over Capitol Park.

Only about half of Hart Plaza is hard surface. There are plenty of open lawn spaces, both overlooking the river as well as closer to downtown. There are also more secluded green spaces off to the sides of the park.

Also, the amount of hard surfaces [[most of the ground is granite pavers and not concrete. And concrete is essentially cast limestone anyway) doesn't have much to do with how successful a public place is.

Venice:

The Vatican: [[note the pavers that are nearly identical to Hart Plaza's)

The list of successful urban public spaces that are almost entirely hard surfaces would go on and on because the idea that these types of spaces should primarily be grass and trees has only been around for the last few decades [[compared previously to the last few millennia).

All due respect for Pei and Nagouchi given, but Hart Plaza was a poorly designed public space from the get-go, and it is a shitty public space to this day.

Given the site, what could be done better? I literally can't think of any other arrangement that would make more sense.

There's a moderately scaled hard surfaced area in the middle of the site, with a dynamic/interactive fountain/sculpture in the center.

This hard surfaced area [[the "plaza" of the plaza) is ringed by an amphitheater [[with dressing rooms and other support spaces)/ice skate rink, restaurants, art gallery, public restrooms, and another amphitheater/monument.

The main entrance to Hart Plaza is at the foot of woodward, "Detroit's main street", and a sensible main entrance, both symbolically and functionally. Woodard hits the park in the NE corner, so the path from the entrance to the plaza is angled. The Pylon anchors the entrance and the path, and serves as a wayfinding device, since it's not a straight shot from Woodward to the plaza.

The Pylon also terminates a promenade that connects Hart Plaza's main entrance to the then Veterans Memorial Building and Cobo. This promenade provides auxiliary space for events and provides clear access to some of the park's green space.

The river, except for an elevated interactive monument/seating which overlooks it, is lined with a grassy and tree shaded hill along the entire stretch. The entire SW corner of Hart Plaza is grass and trees overlooking the river. [[note that ALL of Atwater was intended to be capped, so that the SW area would be one large continuous green space. I think that extending the cap today would improve the park)

Like I said I can't think of a more sensible arrangement. The main plaza space is big enough to host events, and yet on non-event days, over 50% of its perimeter is lined with various people-drawing attractions/amenities. But these are even put underground so that at the plaza level there's ALSO trees and grass. The other part of the perimeter is the coveted grass/trees/river combo.

The absolute failure of Hart Plaza is no longer a matter of subjective opinion, but one of objective fact. As Hart Plaza continues to fail as a miserable public space, the adjacent Riverwalk and Campus Martius Park thrive and serve as examples of quality urban public spaces.

Programatically neither Campus Martius or the Riverwalk do anything that Hart Plaza doesn't. Hart Plaza already has the ice rink/cafe/concerts combo. It also already has the grass and trees along the river thing. It already has an interactive water feature. It already has a concert venue.

It doesn't have a carousel or a kid's playground.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the mid- 20th century architectural "geniuses" didn't know a fucking thing about how to design a public space that is comfortable and pleasing for actual people. We see this every single day, as the people of Detroit fill the Riverwalk, Campus Martius, and every other public space around Hart Plaza, while leaving that terribly designed park empty, and for good reason.

Hart Plaza's problems are actually pretty straightforwardly diagnosable.

First, it's on an edge. It's not in the thick of things, embedded with the hustle and bustle. You can't pass through Hart Plaza, the only time you'll be there is if you specifically choose to go there. Being on an edge also means it has half of the "catchment area" [[the area within walking distance), since the fish in the river won't be visiting the park.

The edge problem is mostly unavoidable but there's a few things that can be done to mitigate it. You can extend downtown into the park by putting some kind of high volume building [[condos won't generate much activity and offices won't either but other commercial and civic uses do) on the Ford Auditorium site. Replacing the Bates garage, capping the tunnel, and better integrating the Ren Cen would also help this.

The other thing you can do to mitigate this problem is to create attractions in the park itself. The designers of Hart Plaza were clearly aware of this considering how intensely programmed the park is. The city on the other hand completely neglects the park. The non profits that manage Campus Martius and the Riverwalk do a great job at this.

The second problem is also due to the city's incompetence. The place is just physically neglected. Things are falling apart. Repairs and additions to the park are poorly thought out. No one is paying attention to the details. These strong signs of blight and negligence signal to people that Hart Plaza is not a place where they want to be. Why is the police station's parking lot a gravel lot lined with cyclone fencing? https://goo.gl/maps/jxwoxWWvSG32 What's with this? https://goo.gl/maps/RTac7jyfBvQ2 Conduit and ducts galore https://www.flickr.com/photos/494992...n/photostream/

And the third problem is that hindsight is 20/20 and there are genuine shortcomings of Hart Plaza that could be addressed. But I think the changes are much more subtle, and frankly much less expensive, than what people think.

**erikd** · July-15-16, 10:56 PM

Originally Posted by Jason

Only about half of Hart Plaza is hard surface. There are plenty of open lawn spaces, both overlooking the river as well as closer to downtown. There are also more secluded green spaces off to the sides of the park.

Also, the amount of hard surfaces [[most of the ground is granite pavers and not concrete. And concrete is essentially cast limestone anyway) doesn't have much to do with how successful a public place is.

Venice:

The Vatican: [[note the pavers that are nearly identical to Hart Plaza's)

The list of successful urban public spaces that are almost entirely hard surfaces would go on and on because the idea that these types of spaces should primarily be grass and trees has only been around for the last few decades [[compared previously to the last few millennia).

Given the site, what could be done better? I literally can't think of any other arrangement that would make more sense.

There's a moderately scaled hard surfaced area in the middle of the site, with a dynamic/interactive fountain/sculpture in the center.

This hard surfaced area [[the "plaza" of the plaza) is ringed by an amphitheater [[with dressing rooms and other support spaces)/ice skate rink, restaurants, art gallery, public restrooms, and another amphitheater/monument.

The main entrance to Hart Plaza is at the foot of woodward, "Detroit's main street", and a sensible main entrance, both symbolically and functionally. Woodard hits the park in the NE corner, so the path from the entrance to the plaza is angled. The Pylon anchors the entrance and the path, and serves as a wayfinding device, since it's not a straight shot from Woodward to the plaza.

The Pylon also terminates a promenade that connects Hart Plaza's main entrance to the then Veterans Memorial Building and Cobo. This promenade provides auxiliary space for events and provides clear access to some of the park's green space.

The river, except for an elevated interactive monument/seating which overlooks it, is lined with a grassy and tree shaded hill along the entire stretch. The entire SW corner of Hart Plaza is grass and trees overlooking the river. [[note that ALL of Atwater was intended to be capped, so that the SW area would be one large continuous green space. I think that extending the cap today would improve the park)

Like I said I can't think of a more sensible arrangement. The main plaza space is big enough to host events, and yet on non-event days, over 50% of its perimeter is lined with various people-drawing attractions/amenities. But these are even put underground so that at the plaza level there's ALSO trees and grass. The other part of the perimeter is the coveted grass/trees/river combo.

Programatically neither Campus Martius or the Riverwalk do anything that Hart Plaza doesn't. Hart Plaza already has the ice rink/cafe/concerts combo. It also already has the grass and trees along the river thing. It already has an interactive water feature. It already has a concert venue.

It doesn't have a carousel or a kid's playground.

Hart Plaza's problems are actually pretty straightforwardly diagnosable.

First, it's on an edge. It's not in the thick of things, embedded with the hustle and bustle. You can't pass through Hart Plaza, the only time you'll be there is if you specifically choose to go there. Being on an edge also means it has half of the "catchment area" [[the area within walking distance), since the fish in the river won't be visiting the park.

The edge problem is mostly unavoidable but there's a few things that can be done to mitigate it. You can extend downtown into the park by putting some kind of high volume building [[condos won't generate much activity and offices won't either but other commercial and civic uses do) on the Ford Auditorium site. Replacing the Bates garage, capping the tunnel, and better integrating the Ren Cen would also help this.

The other thing you can do to mitigate this problem is to create attractions in the park itself. The designers of Hart Plaza were clearly aware of this considering how intensely programmed the park is. The city on the other hand completely neglects the park. The non profits that manage Campus Martius and the Riverwalk do a great job at this.

The second problem is also due to the city's incompetence. The place is just physically neglected. Things are falling apart. Repairs and additions to the park are poorly thought out. No one is paying attention to the details. These strong signs of blight and negligence signal to people that Hart Plaza is not a place where they want to be. Why is the police station's parking lot a gravel lot lined with cyclone fencing? https://goo.gl/maps/jxwoxWWvSG32 What's with this? https://goo.gl/maps/RTac7jyfBvQ2 Conduit and ducts galore https://www.flickr.com/photos/494992...n/photostream/

And the third problem is that hindsight is 20/20 and there are genuine shortcomings of Hart Plaza that could be addressed. But I think the changes are much more subtle, and frankly much less expensive, than what people think.

First off, I must say that this is an excellent post, and a great response to my criticisms of Hart Plaza. I do agree with some of the arguments that you made, but not all of them.

Secondly, my criticism of the harsh overly-paved landscape of Hart Plaza has less to do with a dislike of pavement, or a love of greenspace, in general, and more to do with the fact that it is a harsh landscape that is simply uncomfortable to be in. There are plenty of paved pubic spaces that feel welcoming and comfortable, but Hart Plaza is not one of them. The same argument applies to public spaces that are nothing more that a big patch of grass. A big empty lawn can feel just as unwelcoming as a big empty section of pavement. It's not about the ground covering.

Also, all of the points about how the layout of Hart Plaza is actually well-though out, and should theoretically be a good public space, are great. Unfortunately, it just simply doesn't work. The reality is that Hart Plaza is simply a poor public space. It is uncomfortable to be in.

**southen** · June-27-16, 02:24 PM

Was it Pei or Noguchi? I like the monuments and have always been a fan of the fountain, but it just isn't pedestrian friendly. I think instead of going for the "flavor of the decade" you look at other successful parks, like Millennium in Chicago, and try to emulate those successes. Greenspace, Art, Food options and maybe even another fountain or water feature that is more interactive would help enliven the area and even draw people across Jefferson as an alternative to a jam packed Campus Martius Park. As for the underground areas I have no idea what you do with them other than fill them in and possible put offices or parking there.

**EastsideAl** · June-28-16, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by southen

Was it Pei or Noguchi?

Isamu Noguchi designed the fountain [[although it was not fully built to his specifications, and thus never fully operated as originally intended) and several of the other elements of Hart Plaza. However, the original site design was by Smith, Hinchman & Grylls. As was the trend in the 1970s, they and the city wanted a wide open plaza to enable mass crowds and reduce fears of hiding places for criminals, etc.

It is a relatively rare example of Noguchi's landscape work in the U.S. However, it is unlike some of his other outdoor work, in Miami or Costa Mesa CA for example, which contain much more greenery and notably Japanese-influenced elements [[like Yamasaki's McGregor Center garden at WSU).

**expatriate** · July-07-16, 08:56 AM

Am I the only person who hates the Dodge Fountain? I haven't seen this thing operational more than a few times in my life. The complexity of the mechanisms practically guaranteed that it could not be maintained properly. A traditional fountain that operates on simple pumps and gravity, a la Scott Fountain, would have been a better choice than this non working Bellagio wannabe.
It is not even an attractive sculpture. I can't imagine that Anna Thompson Dodge who left the money for this monstrosity would have approved of the design considering that her tastes in mansions were more of the Beaux Arts period. I don't know if the terms of this "gift" require that it remain in Hart Plaza, but if had my way it would be exiled to Rouge Park or some other location, if not completely dismantled and sold for scrap. [[just kidding, but maybe we could sell it to some other gullible city)

**Hastings** · July-07-16, 07:30 PM

I had sex one time behind the Pyramid stage.

**takascar** · July-19-16, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by EastsideAl

Isamu Noguchi designed the fountain [[although it was not fully built to his specifications, and thus never fully operated as originally intended) and several of the other elements of Hart Plaza. However, the original site design was by Smith, Hinchman & Grylls. As was the trend in the 1970s, they and the city wanted a wide open plaza to enable mass crowds and reduce fears of hiding places for criminals, etc. It is a relatively rare example of Noguchi's landscape work in the U.S. However, it is unlike some of his other outdoor work, in Miami or Costa Mesa CA for example, which contain much more greenery and notably Japanese-influenced elements [[like Yamasaki's McGregor Center garden at WSU).

To fix Hart Plaza, just tear out that ugly doughnut on stilts. It was commissioned during one of the liberal's self-flagellation episodes - this one the combination guilt trip / apology tour regarding Japanese internment during WW-II. During this period, any hack that had Japanese ancestry was given millions of taxpayer dollars to build butt-ugly "art" and structures as a "payback" for WW-II actions. In Chicago, we have an example of this called the Thompson Center. This leaky taxpayer-funded monstrosity looks like an upside-down toilet when viewed from above. How about we stop apologizing for saving the world from fascism and tear out / tear down these monstrosities and build stuff that is really functional and beautiful.

**Armin** · July-19-16, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by takascar

To fix Hart Plaza, just tear out that ugly doughnut on stilts. It was commissioned during one of the liberal's self-flagellation episodes - this one the combination guilt trip / apology tour regarding Japanese internment during WW-II. During this period, any hack that had Japanese ancestry was given millions of taxpayer dollars to build butt-ugly "art" and structures as a "payback" for WW-II actions. In Chicago, we have an example of this called the Thompson Center. This leaky taxpayer-funded monstrosity looks like an upside-down toilet when viewed from above. How about we stop apologizing for saving the world from fascism and tear out / tear down these monstrosities and build stuff that is really functional and beautiful.

Yeah, you nailed it. That would totally fix Hart Plaza.

**dtowncitylover** · July-19-16, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by takascar

To fix Hart Plaza, just tear out that ugly doughnut on stilts. It was commissioned during one of the liberal's self-flagellation episodes - this one the combination guilt trip / apology tour regarding Japanese internment during WW-II. During this period, any hack that had Japanese ancestry was given millions of taxpayer dollars to build butt-ugly "art" and structures as a "payback" for WW-II actions. In Chicago, we have an example of this called the Thompson Center. This leaky taxpayer-funded monstrosity looks like an upside-down toilet when viewed from above. How about we stop apologizing for saving the world from fascism and tear out / tear down these monstrosities and build stuff that is really functional and beautiful.

Ah yes, the World Trade Centers by Yamasaki was just one big, "SORRY JAPAN!"

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

**southen** · July-19-16, 09:33 PM

'Murica!

One of the dumbest things I've read on here. Thanks takascar.

**EastsideAl** · July-20-16, 01:01 AM

Originally Posted by takascar

To fix Hart Plaza, just tear out that ugly doughnut on stilts. It was commissioned during one of the liberal's self-flagellation episodes - this one the combination guilt trip / apology tour regarding Japanese internment during WW-II. During this period, any hack that had Japanese ancestry was given millions of taxpayer dollars to build butt-ugly "art" and structures as a "payback" for WW-II actions. In Chicago, we have an example of this called the Thompson Center. This leaky taxpayer-funded monstrosity looks like an upside-down toilet when viewed from above. How about we stop apologizing for saving the world from fascism and tear out / tear down these monstrosities and build stuff that is really functional and beautiful.

I'm not at all sure what the hell you're going on about, or what Hart Plaza has to do with fascism, but here are a few facts. Isamu Noguchi was half-Japanese and was born in Los Angeles. At the time of WWII he lived in New York and was not interned [[the internment order only covered people of Japanese ancestry living west of the Mississippi). He did, however, volunteer to work in one of the camps for a time.

From his furniture designs [[several of which are still in production), to his pioneering theater design work, to his architectural and landscape design work, and especially to his sculptural works, which are in the collections of literally dozens of major museums, he was among the most important artists of the 20th century. One of the very few artists with a permanent museum in a major city dedicated solely to his works.

You may not like Hart Plaza or its design [[and you certainly seem to harbor some sort of distaste for Japanese people), but there's really very little doubt about Noguchi's accomplishments or status as an artist.

**takascar** · July-21-16, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by EastsideAl

I'm not at all sure what the hell you're going on about, or what Hart Plaza has to do with fascism, but here are a few facts. Isamu Noguchi was half-Japanese and was born in Los Angeles. At the time of WWII he lived in New York and was not interned [[the internment order only covered people of Japanese ancestry living west of the Mississippi). He did, however, volunteer to work in one of the camps for a time. From his furniture designs [[several of which are still in production), to his pioneering theater design work, to his architectural and landscape design work, and especially to his sculptural works, which are in the collections of literally dozens of major museums, he was among the most important artists of the 20th century. One of the very few artists with a permanent museum in a major city dedicated solely to his works. You may not like Hart Plaza or its design [[and you certainly seem to harbor some sort of distaste for Japanese people), but there's really very little doubt about Noguchi's accomplishments or status as an artist.

This has nothing to do with Japanese people. I have several Japanese friends. Its about government making choices for the wrong reason. It is a well known fact that many Japanese artists / designers were chosen during the "Sorry" campaign in the late 70's and 80's. Also not saying that it was actually correct to imprison folks like that - they should have gotten more than they did. The fountain is ugly and always has been. My father was a food vendor and participated in many of the ethnic festivals down there over the years. They started out behind Cobo Hall, moved to West Jefferson, then Michigan and 3rd St. and finally to Hart Plaza. The kitchen areas were all underground and the whole place was designed in the brutalist style of bare concrete. Its been a disaster since it was built. At first, they didn't let any of the vendors decorate their "stalls" with anything - you had to use the menu board that they supplied. All clean and generic [[NOT what you want in a pleasant festive atmosphere). After awhile, they [[the city) didn't care anymore and people improvised the best way they could. Finally, they closed the underground vendor area and allowed food service booths up-top. That made it a bit better.