Here's a Novel Idea: Let's Raise Taxes!

[kraig]

The one industry that we have attracted is the movie business. Messing with the incentives, by either party, is probably a bad idea. Why mess with something that's actually working?

[Pam]

I'm just going to chalk it up to DN being a troll and leave it at that.

None of the trolls here are that funny. Good stuff D-nerd.

[Novine]

"Then why aren't we attracting the number of businesses that places such as Atlanta and Houston attract? Companies aren't exaclty lining up to come here unless they get a phone call from Obama [[GE)."

Back at you Patrick, if there is a connection, explain why companies came to Michigan when personal and business property taxes were higher than they are today?

[Bullet]

The only solution I see to all this Waaahhh! Waaahhh! Waaahhhing is for us to be taxed at 100%. Then Mother Government can provide us with all we need to survive, as she damn well should!

[unclefrank]

Detroitnerd, you are too much brother!

[EMG]

Governor backs taxes to help erase deficit

http://detnews.com/article/20090814/...-erase-deficit

Could someone please tie her up in a closet for the rest of her godforsaken term?

This is the sort of thing that proves the absolute necessity of term limits.

[crawford]

Detroitnerd, do you have an argument, or are you just going to spam this thread with your crap??

Many states have [[get this) both much lower taxes and a much better economy!

But how could that be?? I thought we had to raise our taxes high enough to make a Swede blush, right? Certainly has worked for Detroit, with its remarkable services!

The VAST majority of taxes nationwide go to public employee salaries and benefits. There is little relationship between tax rates and public service quality or economic strength.

[MCP-001]

The personal income tax rate today is lower than what we paid when Engler is Governor. Commercial and Industrial properties were given a huge property tax cut in 2007. Irish claims there's a direct connection between tax rates and tax cuts and economic activity. It's clear from those two points that there's little or no proof that tax policy has had any significant impact on Michigan's economy.

Not quite, Novine.

State spending has increased [[faster than the rate of inflation in some cases) during that time between Engler and Granholm.

Now if you want to argue that increasing taxes don't adversely affect the economy, you can look at;

• Bill Clinton's "luxury tax" an boats back in the early 90's that decimated the shipbuilding industry.
• States with higher cigarette taxes [[i.e. Michigan & New York) that spured people going into neighboring states with lower taxes to purchase ciragettes.
• Or remember the "service tax" that Granholm tried to foist on us back in '07?

I can continue, but I believe that I made my point.

[kraig]

The personal income tax rate today is lower than what we paid when Engler is Governor. Commercial and Industrial properties were given a huge property tax cut in 2007. Irish claims there's a direct connection between tax rates and tax cuts and economic activity. It's clear from those two points that there's little or no proof that tax policy has had any significant impact on Michigan's economy.

Under Engler, the state income tax went from 4.5 percent down to 4.0 percent [[the sales tax did go from four to six cents on the dollar). Just recently, under Granholm, the state income tax was increased to 4.3 percent. So, there's definitely been a raise in income tax since she's been in office.

[reddog289]

And if and when I quit smoking the state will be outta $1642.50 a year.So I can be around longer to pay more taxes.You can tax smokes all you want But with that its like sucking money from the dying and people who are gonna quit. If no one smoked who would the state hit up?I have lived through pretty much 4 govenors Blanchard let the roads go to hell , Engler let the looneys out that Milliken didn't and Jenny on the block came to town and sad to say has ticked me off from day one. Against my better judgement I voted for her. Lesser of the two evils. It might be because of the times that she is in my mind a crappy Gov, But as I see it she stinks I would pay to move her and her family back to Canada or Washington.

[reddog289]

As a side note on the bottled water Tax it ,put a deposit on it cause the bottles end up allover. Like the SWEET TEA cans.I must be getting old. Bitching about water and tea.

[crawford]

Under Engler, the state income tax went from 4.5 percent down to 4.0 percent [[the sales tax did go from four to six cents on the dollar). Just recently, under Granholm, the state income tax was increased to 4.3 percent. So, there's definitely been a raise in income tax since she's been in office.

What I don't understand is why we have a flat income tax. It's really horribly anti-working class.

Why should someone making $20,000 pay the same proportion of their income on taxes as someone making $1,000,000? Terribly regressive.

And when you add in the fact that poor communities like Detroit and Pontiac have city income taxes, many poor folks actually pay a higher proportion of their incomes on taxes than those in places like Bloomfield Hills.

The McDonalds worker is paying a higher proportion than the auto executive. This obviously needs to change.

[kraig]

What I don't understand is why we have a flat income tax. It's really horribly anti-working class.

Why should someone making $20,000 pay the same proportion of their income on taxes as someone making $1,000,000? Terribly regressive.

And when you add in the fact that poor communities like Detroit and Pontiac have city income taxes, many poor folks actually pay a higher proportion of their incomes on taxes than those in places like Bloomfield Hills.

The McDonalds worker is paying a higher proportion than the auto executive. This obviously needs to change.

That depends. Do you consider auto workers, teachers and nurses working class? If you go to a proportionate tax system, that's who would get hit first. The working class is the middle class. Whenever there's an increase in taxes, it's always the middle class that gets screwed. Besides, let's put it into perspective. The person making $20,000 is paying $860.00 in state taxes. The person making $200,000 is paying $8,600.00.

The problem with too much proportionate tax is that the quality of life for a doctor would soon be no better than the quality of life for a fast food worker. It strips away the motivation to do better. How are those medical school loans going to get paid back?

The real truth is that the state doesn't do any better with managing it's finances than the City of Detroit does. It's simply in a position to withhold money from its municipalities when it comes up short. Raising taxes won't alleviate bad management. Never has, never will.

[Novine]

"State spending has increased [[faster than the rate of inflation in some cases) during that time between Engler and Granholm."

Almost all of the increase in state spending has been from federal funds. Of the increases, almost all of it has been in corrections and health care. Most state departments have seen their funding drop. Take away those federal dollars and state funding has been flat or gone down in most areas.

"Under Engler, the state income tax went from 4.5 percent down to 4.0 percent [[the sales tax did go from four to six cents on the dollar)."

Not true. The tax cuts started under Engler. They didn't go to 4% until after Granholm had been in office for a couple of years. The sales tax went up in 1994 when Proposal A was approved.

"The problem with too much proportionate tax is that the quality of life for a doctor would soon be no better than the quality of life for a fast food worker."

That's a joke. The person making $200,000 a year could have their tax rate doubled and their quality of life would still be 100 times better than that of the fast food worker.

[kraig]

"State spending has increased [[faster than the rate of inflation in some cases) during that time between Engler and Granholm."

Almost all of the increase in state spending has been from federal funds. Of the increases, almost all of it has been in corrections and health care. Most state departments have seen their funding drop. Take away those federal dollars and state funding has been flat or gone down in most areas.

"Under Engler, the state income tax went from 4.5 percent down to 4.0 percent [[the sales tax did go from four to six cents on the dollar)."

Not true. The tax cuts started under Engler. They didn't go to 4% until after Granholm had been in office for a couple of years. The sales tax went up in 1994 when Proposal A was approved.

"The problem with too much proportionate tax is that the quality of life for a doctor would soon be no better than the quality of life for a fast food worker."

That's a joke. The person making $200,000 a year could have their tax rate doubled and their quality of life would still be 100 times better than that of the fast food worker.

Spoken like someone who's probably not making 200k a year. Do you have any idea what an MBA from U of M costs? Between student loans, federal income tax close to 40%, Social Security taking more than $20,000.00, Detroit property tax bill of $17,843.72, state income tax of 4.3% and City income tax of almost 3%. I watch my income disappear quick.

Good luck trying to tell those of us that actually have to foot the bill for everyone else that you're going to double our taxes. You might as well jump back behind that counter and dump some more fries. We're not going for that. I'm not getting anything for what I'm already paying.

[Novine]

"Good luck trying to tell those of us that actually have to foot the bill for everyone else that you're going to double our taxes."

BooFrickinHoo for you Kraig. Plenty of people here are paying their fair share and then some in taxes. There's many people who make a lot less than you do who are paying a higher percentage of their income in taxes than you do. As for your student loans, that's no different than someone who has run up their credit card debt and know has to pay it back. Why are we supposed to feel sorry for you that it's hurting your lifestyle?

[crawford]

Spoken like someone who's probably not making 200k a year. Do you have any idea what an MBA from U of M costs? Between student loans, federal income tax close to 40%, Social Security taking more than $20,000.00, Detroit property tax bill of $17,843.72, state income tax of 4.3% and City income tax of almost 3%. I watch my income disappear quick.

LOL, what an amazingly [[[[[[-tastic response. You must be a real treat in person. I am actually a little ashamed I have a family member from the Ross school.

You are seriously saying that fast food workers are supposed to subsidize your decision to get a Michigan MBA?

Get a second job if life is so tough in the executive suite. Maybe night fry cook would be up your alley, considering you think they have it so great.

And if you are paying U.S. federal tax of 40%, it's time you stop doing your own taxes, or at least while on a coke binge. There's absolutely no income bracket that results in 40% federal taxation.

Same goes for the social security taxes. How exactly do you pay 20 grand when its taxed at 6.2% up to $106,000? In addition to yourself, you would have to have a spouse and a dependent child, all making six figures.

Good luck trying to tell those of us that actually have to foot the bill for everyone else that you're going to double our taxes.

More wacky math. How does switching from a flat to progressive state tax double your taxes? A 2% increase doubles your taxes? The current state tax is a little over 4%. You really think it would increase 15-fold or something?

Somehow most other states have progressive income taxes, yet they retain a lot more successful executives than MI. California and the entire Northeast have progressive taxes, yet places like NYC, LA, SF have more wealthy than anywhere on earth.

And you pay $18,000 in annual property taxes?

My advice is to move out of the city of Detroit. You can buy a mansion in Bloomfield Hills and pay the same or less. Then you can vent over the greedy fast-food workers from the grounds of Cranbrook.

[kraig]

"Good luck trying to tell those of us that actually have to foot the bill for everyone else that you're going to double our taxes."

BooFrickinHoo for you Kraig. Plenty of people here are paying their fair share and then some in taxes. There's many people who make a lot less than you do who are paying a higher percentage of their income in taxes than you do. As for your student loans, that's no different than someone who has run up their credit card debt and know has to pay it back. Why are we supposed to feel sorry for you that it's hurting your lifestyle?

Don't feel sorry for me. I'm not asking for that by any means. But taxes shouldn't be punitive. If you can find someone making less than a 30 grand that has to pay 39.1% in federal taxes alone, I want to see it. And if you're comparing student loans to a Macy's Bill [[credit card debt). You're mindset and priorities are completely off base. I actually feel sorry for you if that's the case, because, you obviously don't have an appreciation for higher education.

[kraig]

LOL, what an amazingly [[[[[[-tastic response. You must be a real treat in person. I am actually a little ashamed I have a family member from the Ross school.

You are seriously saying that fast food workers are supposed to subsidize your decision to get a Michigan MBA?

Get a second job if life is so tough in the executive suite. Maybe night fry cook would be up your alley, considering you think they have it so great.

And if you are paying U.S. federal tax of 40%, it's time you stop doing your own taxes, or at least while on a coke binge. There's absolutely no income bracket that results in 40% federal taxation.

Same goes for the social security taxes. How exactly do you pay 20 grand when its taxed at 6.2% up to $106,000? In addition to yourself, you would have to have a spouse and a dependent child, all making six figures.


More wacky math. How does switching from a flat to progressive state tax double your taxes? A 2% increase doubles your taxes? The current state tax is a little over 4%. You really think it would increase 15-fold or something?

Somehow most other states have progressive income taxes, yet they retain a lot more successful executives than MI. California and the entire Northeast have progressive taxes, yet places like NYC, LA, SF have more wealthy than anywhere on earth.

And you pay $18,000 in annual property taxes?

My advice is to move out of the city of Detroit. You can buy a mansion in Bloomfield Hills and pay the same or less. Then you can vent over the greedy fast-food workers from the grounds of Cranbrook.

Reading is fundamental. Give it a shot sometime. The next time you're looking at a 1040 worksheet, turn to page 80. 35% is close enough to 40% for my tastes. I understand that the person dancing out on the street dressed as the statue of liberty that prepared your taxes didn't explain it to you. But after $100,000, you're no longer using the same tax table. Again, if you can find someone making under $30,000 that has to pay 35-40 percent in federal income tax alone, I want to see it. As far as a coke binge, I prefer Mountain Dew. I moved back into the City so that I could be closer to the students that I've been mentoring. The tax hit is one that I've chosen to take. But that doesn't mean I'm going to ignore how much it is, due to the fact that, everyone feels that I should pay more simply because city and state officials can't handle their responsibilities worth a damn.

Lastly, in no way am I saying that anyone should subsidize my student loan responsibilities. What I am saying is that too many people think that Engineers, Lawyers, Doctors and CEO's are expected to carry the load for everyone else as though we don't have our own responsibilities.

[Novine]

"If you can find someone making less than a 30 grand that has to pay 39.1% in federal taxes alone, I want to see it."

Typical Kraig, it's all about you. Here's an idea, think about the tax load for someone other than you. The person making burger flipping wages pays a higher percentage of their income out in property taxes, sales taxes, gas taxes, etc. than you do. So while you whine about the percentage of your income going to federal income taxes, lots of people pay much more of their take-home pay towards property taxes, sales taxes, gas taxes, etc. I know the Limbaugh-ites love to point out how much the rich pay in income taxes. But last time I checked, income taxes don't pay 100% of the way. For many people, income taxes are the least of their worries.

[kraig]

"If you can find someone making less than a 30 grand that has to pay 39.1% in federal taxes alone, I want to see it."

Typical Kraig, it's all about you. Here's an idea, think about the tax load for someone other than you. The person making burger flipping wages pays a higher percentage of their income out in property taxes, sales taxes, gas taxes, etc. than you do. So while you whine about the percentage of your income going to federal income taxes, lots of people pay much more of their take-home pay towards property taxes, sales taxes, gas taxes, etc. I know the Limbaugh-ites love to point out how much the rich pay in income taxes. But last time I checked, income taxes don't pay 100% of the way. For many people, income taxes are the least of their worries.

Here's the part you fail to understand. I don't think anyone's taxes should be increased. Not mine or yours. If the Fed or state and city government want to lower taxes or provide better tax breaks for those in the lower tax bracket, that's fine with me. Just don't raise my taxes in the process.

Why should I pay more in state taxes when the only thing Granholm is going to do is hook up her buddies like Art Blackwell? Why should I pay more in City taxes when the only thing Mayor Beckham [[yes, Beckham) is going to do is hook up Kwame's old cronies?

It's not about just me or you. But, don't we all bring our own perspectives and experiences to these discussions?

[MCP-001]

What I don't understand is why we have a flat income tax. It's really horribly anti-working class.

Why should someone making $20,000 pay the same proportion of their income on taxes as someone making $1,000,000? Terribly regressive.

And when you add in the fact that poor communities like Detroit and Pontiac have city income taxes, many poor folks actually pay a higher proportion of their incomes on taxes than those in places like Bloomfield Hills.

The McDonalds worker is paying a higher proportion than the auto executive. This obviously needs to change.

My old math teachers would LOVE to hear the rationale for this one.

Please explain how 0.0435X is NOT proportional?

[crawford]

My old math teachers would LOVE to hear the rationale for this one.

Please explain how 0.0435X is NOT proportional?

Reread my post.

The poor are concentrated in communities with city income taxes. The wealthy are concentrated in communities without city income taxes.

A Bloomfield Hills resident pays 4.35% in state & local

A Pontiac resident pays about 7% in state & local

[Ocean2026]

Raising Taxes is a classic Catch-22.

Here's my partial solution to the real estate taxes. No matter what rate you set, appraise them at the market value as evidenced by the sale price.

Why? Because who wants to buy a house- one of thousands that is on sale for between $1000- $10,000 when they find they may be paying $3000 a year in tax. Houses like this will rot before someone pays that amount of annual tax. The same argument works on expensive commercial. IF a building was once worth $1 million but sells for $200k now and needs work- what incentive is there if the taxes are based on that huge amount?

Texas uses the sales figure when there is a sale. It works pretty good.

And while I'm at it - make mandatory sentences of 60 years for any offense with a firearm or knife. Allow convicts to work on work crews fixing up or tearing down old buildings and give them one day extra credit for each REAL day of work.

[BShea]

Has anyone taken a line-by-line look at what state government funds?

Are my taxes going for cops, fire, roads, bridges, education and the basic safety nets?

Or is there a hornet's nest of waste that could be trimmed?

I haven't looked; curious if someone else has?

I know taxes are the price of civilization, but that assumes the government collecting them is spending them wisely ...