Ilitch's Biggest Flops?

[Enduro]

I can appreciate that businesses and concepts don't always hit the target but the failures are relevant to my concerns. I can appreciate not needing to know what a private citizen gives to charity and don't care what they do there.

However, I don't appreciate the payroll tax dodging, the refusal to pay the nominal JLA bills, the intentional demolition by neglect, the decades of hording properties in prime spots waiting for a Gilbert to step in and make them worth saving. And I loathe that he has the gall to take money from a city that just emerged from bankruptcy, I don't care if it's "available." The national reporting has been very harsh and rightly so. I hope this haunts his legacy.

Also, I'd love to know this altruistic reason why the Johnny Rocket's spot is strategically closed. That argument might hold water if they hadn't failed there already, they clearly tried.

And the argument that Comerica Park is an upgrade to Tiger Stadium is subjective [[although I mostly agree, I still would have preferred a retro fit) so I'll give you that, however, it is most definitely not better than its contemporaries.

My main concern remains - the concessions in CoPa have been dreadful and lazy, the Johnny Rockets spot has never had a winner, the casino is uninspired... What makes anyone think they can raise an artificial entertainment district out of nothing that will be successful? Or that they will honor any of their agreements? This is already turning into the Bait n' Switchy Arena.

[Scottathew]

They could have saved themselves the moaning and groaning of people like you

My moaning and groaning will stop when the Ilitch's complete the first non-taxpayer subsidized project. As exciting as the Ilitch catalog of gravel [[at best) surface parking lots are, I'd like to see some actual, real progress.

[ABetterDetroit]

Judge the man on merit not because he owns your favorite team. Take away the Tigers and Redwings from his portfolio and what's left that has changed anything in the city for the last 25 years?

Give me 250 million and all the land you have that I want for the sum of one dollar and I will impress the hell out of you with my generosity in public. It's all relevant.

He is by far the largest speculator in Detroit, more than happy to be sitting on the sidelines waiting for others to do the hard work that increases the value of his holdings.

[Gistok]

Chuck Forbes got $14 million for his properties that were taken away for the Stadia district... and he has sunk most of that in the properties he owns in the Foxtown district. Chuck was a retired Ford executive... not a billionaire! Did he get all these sweetheart deals that Ilitch got? I hardly think so. And yet unlike Ilitch... you need more than the fingers of one hand to count what he has renovated or restored.

I don't know why anyone doesn't realize why the Johnny Rocket location in the Fox Building is still empty?? It couldn't make a go of it as a Johnny Rocket Restaurant... nor as an American Pizza Cafe before that. And it's the same reason why the State Bar next door in the Francis Palms Building [[Fillmore Theatre) is only open during restricted hours. With a sea of Ilitch owned parking in that area... there's no foot traffic north of GCP during non game days [[or non theatre nights). The only reason that Hockeytown Cafe is working, is that it is a destination location... people park in the Fox garage, and go just there [[as well as some LC employees at lunch).

An entertainment district with hundreds of feet between destinations is what the Ilitch's have brought us.... that needs to change. Hopefully it will... but we have to wait and see how it turns out... just like we do with everything the Ilitch's announce.

[Enduro]

I wonder about Hockeytown. We tried to get lunch from their a couple times when I worked in the "M@dison" building. Food was not exciting at all and it never seemed to be busy on non-game days. I don't know anyone who has opted to go there more than twice unless it was to have a beer before a game.

[detroitbob]

Correct EMU Steve

Sounds like another famous, or infamous, 'Detroit Yes - Ilitch No' hit job threads...

Lot of folks don't like his commercial moves and a lot of people loathe sports, esp. if there is public moneys involved.

Add those two together and one gets threads [[plural) like these...

[Wesley Mouch]

...An entertainment district with hundreds of feet between destinations is what the Ilitch's have brought us.... that needs to change. Hopefully it will... but we have to wait and see how it turns out... just like we do with everything the Ilitch's announce.

Did I not hear that Ilitch said he regretted the Gem relocation, and that he has come to appreciate the idea of urban density? I couldn't find the reference.

If so, is repentance sufficient for DYforgiveness?

[Bigdd]

My moaning and groaning will stop when the Ilitch's complete the first non-taxpayer subsidized project. As exciting as the Ilitch catalog of gravel [[at best) surface parking lots are, I'd like to see some actual, real progress.

AND nearly all of those lots are ILLEGAL.

By City ordinance,. any parking lot in the city must be fenced in with wrought iron fencing. [[Expensive)

Mr. Illich seems to be immune to this. As a result,.. when you see a dirty parking lot downtown fenced in with wavy cyclone fencing,.. it's a safe bet it belongs to Illich Holdings.

[bust]

Did I not hear that Ilitch said he regretted the Gem relocation, and that he has come to appreciate the idea of urban density? I couldn't find the reference.

If so, is repentance sufficient for DYforgiveness?

Hell no. Actions not words. After so many false promises his words are worthless. And can you name anyone who has destroyed more density in Detroit than Ilitch?

The powers that be have given Ilitch yet another chance. Maybe this time he will build the delights he entices us to believe putting our public moneys in his private hands will bring. His words are so inspiring. They paint a glorious picture of "District Detroit":

It will "surprise locals and guests with an intriguing, intimate and timeless experience." It will include "unique shops, boutiques, galleries, and cafes ... restaurants, wine bars, jazz clubs and speakeasies ... offering a social, vibrant hangout ... framed by trees, flowers and greenery."

It will include a "tree-shaded respite" surrounded by "new offices, retail specialty shops and loft-style condos ... a terraced cafe ... manicured gardens ... [a] lawn ... [a] dog run ... [and] boundless opportunities to play, interact, relax and connect."

"It will be alive and buzzing every day, all year long ... pulsating with nightclub electricity, where food vendors, restaurants and shops will cater to a high-energy crowd that comes together to celebrate." It will "deliver casual shopping, terraced dining, loft-living and a dynamic gathering place."

It will be "an authentic experience like few other places in the nation ... [and] party central ... Bars, shops and street vendors [will] take part in the celebration, offering a variety of delights day or night." It will "pay homage to times gone by ... with architectural details that harkens back to industrial roots."

It will be "part entrepreneurial, part artistic ... with individuality and expression ... a hotbed for artists who will launch new ideas ... a tight-knit community ... home to independent shops, local markets and galleries." It will have "a relaxed atmosphere with a free-spirited attitude." It will be "like a small town ... [and] will encourage people to get to know each other." "shop owners and cafe start-ups [will] welcome visitors ... in comfortable and casual surroundings ... as neighbors meet in the backyard for informal get-togethers or at the park for pickup softball ... [and] local bars and galleries will come alive, offering events from poetry slams to local garage bands to full-out launch parties."

But don't expect it. Nothing binds Ilitch to build any of it.

If history provides a lesson his promises begin diminishing shortly after he collects his permits and taxpayer assistance, and his actions will peter out as soon as he builds those aspects of his plan that maximize his financial interests.

Maybe this time things will be different. Some say let's not dwell in the past. Let's be optimistic. The skeptics are haters who see a glass half empty. They hate sports. They hate billionaires. They're practically un-american. Let's give Ilitch a second chance [[and a third, and a fourth, and...).

I say let's not be so foolish as to place our faith in someone who has repeatedly broken our trust. Let's hold our applause until he proves himself. And let's wise up and stop giving away so much taxpayer money with so little to ensure it's a good public investment.

[Scottathew]

And can you name anyone who has destroyed more density in Detroit than Ilitch?

I was prepared to make an argument saying that Matty was worse, but I think you're right, Ilitch is the worst. He's been speculatively holding land has parking lots, a huge missed opportunity, as he made all his sports venues places where you go, see the game, and then leave.

[Gistok]

We used to have a member on DYES named Verifiable... he hasn't posted in years... but he did keep a tab on Ilitch owned property. Now this map dates to around 2010, so it's quite outdated. And there are a few errors... such as Ilitch has never owned property on the Statler block. But just look at the huge number of parcels he does own. But I'll bet you one thing.... he hasn't sold a single one. Most are just parking lots now.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...wL8Ek&hl=en_US

I found an old DYES thread from 2009 that talks about the 3 story 2030 Grand River Ave. building that was torn down by Ilitch... because it would make a good parking lot. This was a decent building that was a home to some Detroit Techno music companies...

http://www.atdetroit.net/forum/messa...tml?1236283690

[Enduro]

Wow are they laying it on thick with that description of "District Detroit." It would be hilarious if this wasn't the second or third time he's promised the moon and not delivered on a fraction of it. The more I think about the roof switcheroo, the loading dock "compromise" the more I get angry. How many more surprises are we in store for before this thing opens?

I wrote a satirical article about the "Bait-n-Switch Arena" and even printed up a t-shirt for myself because I was so proud of the silly logo I made. Red-Wings Owner Offers Detroit Teachers Summer Jobs Building New Arena

[Scottathew]

I wrote a satirical article about the "Bait-n-Switch Arena" and even printed up a t-shirt for myself because I was so proud of the silly logo I made. Red-Wings Owner Offers Detroit Teachers Summer Jobs Building New Arena

LOVE IT! I was grinning through the whole article!

[Enduro]

LOVE IT! I was grinning through the whole article!

Thanks, I appreciate the feedback!

[Dbest]

Enduro, love the thread.

I have to add the new Fox digital boards to the list of dog-shit. It looks like a big blob of light at night, way to bright. It really detracts from the signage.

[Wesley Mouch]

Hell no. Actions not words. After so many false promises his words are worthless. And can you name anyone who has destroyed more density in Detroit than Ilitch?

The powers that be have given Ilitch yet another chance. Maybe this time he will build the delights he entices us to believe putting our public moneys in his private hands will bring. His words are so inspiring. They paint a glorious picture of "District Detroit":

...snip out brilliant BS...

But don't expect it. Nothing binds Ilitch to build any of it.

If history provides a lesson his promises begin diminishing shortly after he collects his permits and taxpayer assistance, and his actions will peter out as soon as he builds those aspects of his plan that maximize his financial interests.

Maybe this time things will be different. Some say let's not dwell in the past. Let's be optimistic. The skeptics are haters who see a glass half empty. They hate sports. They hate billionaires. They're practically un-american. Let's give Ilitch a second chance [[and a third, and a fourth, and...).

I say let's not be so foolish as to place our faith in someone who has repeatedly broken our trust. Let's hold our applause until he proves himself. And let's wise up and stop giving away so much taxpayer money with so little to ensure it's a good public investment.

'The powers that be' be us. We have decided that development is the function of civic authority. And those authorities take the BS from all developers [[not just Ilitch), hoist it up high, bless it, then anoint it with taxpayer money.

[[Aside, it will be interesting to see how President Trump views the BS of other developers from the oval office.)

You can blame the carnival barkers, or you can blame the shills who pay out money to see the two-headed lady and step inside.

[Enduro]

Enduro, love the thread.

I have to add the new Fox digital boards to the list of dog-shit. It looks like a big blob of light at night, way to bright. It really detracts from the signage.

You know I was worried about that too but I don't think it looks bad. Perhaps I'm just thrilled they decided to use real neon to refurbish the sign and not that fake plastic junk that the Magic Bag in Ferndale used. BTW I think the MC Casino lights are dreadful.

There were concept drawings floating around hinting that Gilbert was going to give the Madison marquee a similar face lift [[I used to work in the building) but I'm not sure what ever came of it [[the company axed all its Detroit staff so I'm out of the loop again). Would be kind of a waste with the People Mover column right in front of it though.

[Gistok]

Dbest, sorry, I will give the Ilitch's their deserved criticism... but we part ways here... I think the new signage looks 100 times better than the old plain signage...

[bust]

'The powers that be' be us. We have decided that development is the function of civic authority. And those authorities take the BS from all developers [[not just Ilitch), hoist it up high, bless it, then anoint it with taxpayer money.

[[Aside, it will be interesting to see how President Trump views the BS of other developers from the oval office.)

You can blame the carnival barkers, or you can blame the shills who pay out money to see the two-headed lady and step inside.

You make a really good point to highlight the powers that be who make the decisions what to do with taxpayer money. It's at the crux of the situation.

However I disagree "'the powers that be' be us." The powers that be who diverted up to $324M of taxpayer money away from Michigan schools into Ilitch's hands for his sports arena were the Detroit Downtown Development Authority [[DDA) which is a subsidiary of the Detroit Economic Growth Corporation [[DEGC), and the Michigan Strategic Fund [[MSF), a subsidiary of the Michigan Economic Development Corporation [[MEDC).

They are not government agencies, they're ostensibly "non-profit organizations." They're run by un-elected officials. They make crucial decisions what to do with our public funds. And they've been set up in partnership with some of the private corporations whose financial interests are most heavily vested in the decisions they make.

Who are they specifically and how are their business interests tied to the decisions they make? What an important question. Let's quickly look at membership of the DDA. Today they are:

• Hon. Mike Duggan, Mayor of the City of Detroit
• Robert Anderson, City of Detroit
• Marvin Beaty, Greektown Casino
• David Blaszkiewicz, Detroit Investment Fund/Downtown Detroit Partnership
• Ehrlich Crain, White Construction
• Harold Curry, C.O.S. Group, LLC
• Sonya Delley, Flagstar Bank
• Richard Hosey, Resident
• Cheryl Johnson, City of Detroit
• Stephen Ogden, Rock Ventures

Ted Gatzaros, former partner in the Greektown Casino, was there too when the decision to fund the arena was made.

Interesting that Greektown Casino and Rock Ventures are part of this. Interesting too that Olympia is not. But who are the rest?

I didn't look long into this, but I wasn't surprised to quickly discover Ehrlich Crain is Vice President, Business Development of White Construction. They were granted the contract to build the arena. Imagine how much money they're set to make.

Neither was I surprised to discover Flagstar is the official bank partner of the Red Wings.

I'm sure there's more here to be found.

This quasi-governmental organization has direct financial relationships with some of the private corporations who benefit most from its decisions. They're not directly accountable to taxpayers. They seem barely even indirectly accountable to us. And they're just one among several similar quasi-governmental organizations deciding what to do with Michigan taxpayer money.

Just one of them gave away hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars for just one project. Money that would have otherwise gone to Michigan schools. How many total taxpayer dollars do these organizations control overall? What else do they allocate it for? Whose private financial interests are they benefiting? And what ties to these companies do the people making the decisions have? These are important questions we really ought to discuss.

I have neither the time time nor the expertise to conduct a thorough investigation. A proper investigative journalist ought to look into this. Are there still any investigative journalists in Detroit?

[Wesley Mouch]

[QUOTE=bust;505447]You make a really good point to highlight the powers that be who make the decisions what to do with taxpayer money. It's at the crux of the situation.

However I disagree "'the powers that be' be us." The powers that be who diverted up to $324M of taxpayer money away from Michigan schools into Ilitch's hands for his sports arena were the Detroit Downtown Development Authority [[DDA) which is a subsidiary of the Detroit Economic Growth Corporation [[DEGC), and the Michigan Strategic Fund [[MSF), a subsidiary of the Michigan Economic Development Corporation [[MEDC).
...snip.../QUOTE]
Diverted? I dislike those pejorative verbs. Is it only a diversion if you don't get your way? But that's beside the point.

The font of the money is the taxpayer. The government, elected by the taxpayers, allocates the money -- usually by vote of their representatives. If they choose to 'divert' the money to quasi-governmental entities, I don't blame the QGEs. I blame those who gave them the cash to spend.

I don't know the details on the school 'diversion', but anyone who is 'dedicating' money to schools, and then hands it to any TLA [[or FLA) without appropriate 'strings' didn't really intended it to be 'dedicated' to schools [[in this case).

And one more step... somehow Detroit at least spends more than average per pupil on education. The 'diversion' does not appear to have stopped the flow of the funding river.

[Dbest]

Dbest, sorry, I will give the Ilitch's their deserved criticism... but we part ways here... I think the new signage looks 100 times better than the old plain signage...

We have a difference of opinion on this, I think the readers should look as authentic as possible. I also contend the "flat screens" detract from the neon marquee. It literally draws your eyes to a friggin TV.

Like I give two shits about seeing some photo accompanying the name of the act on the reader like in the image you posted...

[bust]

Diverted? I dislike those pejorative verbs. Is it only a diversion if you don't get your way? ...

Divert isn't a pejorative verb. We disagree about a few things, but I'm surprised we disagree about that. Mirriam-Webster's defines it as "to change the direction or use of [[something)". That's what happened.

It's the term Crain's used to describe the situation:

The DDA district property tax capture and the diverted school tax would repay $261.5 million [[58 percent) of the building’s construction bonds while Olympia would provide $188.4 million [[42 percent), according to details provided by the state.

The state reimburses the schools for the diverted money, the DDA has said.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...ed-wings-arena

Most everyone else does too. Bloomberg Business Week described the situation in detail:

Tapping Schools

Almost 60 percent of the funds to pay for the arena would come from taxpayers. Bonds would be backed by a combination of about $15 million in annual payments from Detroit’s Downtown Development Authority and $11.5 million from Olympia. Wayne County may also provide support, according to a July 24 memo.

In December, Michigan’s legislature revived the ability of the development authority to take a portion of school-tax revenue generated by property on 615 downtown acres. The money, which had gone toward economic-development bonds, would be used for debt service on a project meeting the characteristics of a new Red Wings arena.

The levy generates about $13 million, said Bob Rossbach, a spokesman for the authority.

The money otherwise would have reverted to public schools and the state’s school-aid fund, according to a legislative analysis. The state will reimburse the district to make up shortfalls, just as did before 2011, said Rossbach.

“It’s not taking money from Detroit Public Schools and putting it into economic development,” Rossbach said.

Bipartisan Scorn

However, the state still must take money from programs to make up for cash benefiting the Iliches, said Shikha Dalmia, a senior analyst for the Los Angeles-based Reason Foundation, which describes itself as a public-policy think tank promoting free-market economics.

“The left should be crying bloody murder,” Dalmia said. “Why are you diverting money that’s meant for Detroit school children to this guy’s pocket? And the right should be crying about crony capitalism. They could easily have passed another state law which allowed this money to go to fighting crime, or a bazillion other things.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...t-city-suffers

Those articles were published in 2013. Since then the DDA requested permission to lift the cap on how much revenue they can divert to repay the arena bonds. The entity to consider the request was the Michigan Strategic Fund [[MSF). Permission was granted, and the diversion of funds is now expected to exceed $15M per year instead of $13M, and could go higher. The percent of the funding for the arena that comes from public money would go higher too.

http://www.metrotimes.com/detroit/fi...nt?oid=2249280

Why was the cap lifted? Partly to make a particular batch of arena bonds a safer investment for Bank of America, who purchased them. Also to credit Olympia an additional $74M of taxpayer money beyond the $250M they've already secured. Crain's turned to the DDA's spokesman Robert Rossbach to explain:

Any additional money collected by the DDA beyond the original $15 million cap goes into a reserve fund, he said.

Those additional taxes collected beyond the $15 million had been originally obligated to pay Olympia a rebate, up to $74 million over the life of the bonds, as an incentive for its investment of $200 million in private ancillary development around the arena, Rossbach said. The rebate was part of the arena deal between the DDA and Olympia, and was to begin five years after the arena opened.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...s-cap-on-taxes

Don't forget Olympia doesn't have to invest the $200M themselves:

http://www.metrotimes.com/detroit/20...nt?oid=2201843

The font of the money is the taxpayer.

Indeed.

The government, elected by the taxpayers, allocates the money -- usually by vote of their representatives. If they choose to 'divert' the money to quasi-governmental entities, I don't blame the QGEs. I blame those who gave them the cash to spend.

But what percentage of Michigan taxpayers has even heard about the DDA, the DEGC, the MSF, and the MEDC? I've looked into this a bit and still don't understand what they do and how the people who run them are selected. It's not something the news media inform us about. Certainly not the dailies three-days-a-weeklies. Not tv, not radio either. It's a shame the "fourth estate" has been so decimated, especially in places like Michigan. They've been unable or unwilling to do the job.

These topics don't make for good sound bites in campaign ads either. Fearmongering is much more effective. It takes a strong interest and an active effort to learn the important facts these days. The situation leaves most people to vote by their gut instincts instead.

I don't know the details on the school 'diversion', but anyone who is 'dedicating' money to schools, and then hands it to any TLA [[or FLA) without appropriate 'strings' didn't really intended it to be 'dedicated' to schools [[in this case).

...Except they were not the same people. The people who granted the authority to divert taxpayer money away from schools are an entirely different bunch, with different priorities. The DDA was created in 1978.

http://www.manta.com/c/mm70nzh/city-...ment-authority

In fairness, it's all incredibly complicated and confusing. I don't blame anyone who has a hard time following what's going on. I do too. I wonder even if it was designed to be this way.

Government officials are expected to end any relationships and divest or put into a blind trust any investments with corporations that have interests in the decisions they make. Federal officials and many others must do so by law. I'm not sure what conflict of interest laws apply to State and City officials in Michigan. And I know of no evidence any conflict of interest has occurred. But the situation is ripe for abuse and considering the money at stake these extra-governmental agencies are worth looking into. They give interested corporations a big share of power over public purse strings while evading the scrutiny public officials would attract, and seem to skirt any conflict of interest laws that exist.

The relationships between these governmental and extra-governmental agencies and the private companies they fund are so convoluted it's easy to get thrown off the trail. It's tiresome trying to make sense of the labyrinthine details. It feels like relief getting distracted before figuring them out.

I saw it on the news: Detroit went buckwild over the weekend. How big are Trump's hands, really? CJ Barrymore's opened a roller coaster! Are Ozzy and Sharon kaput? How about that woman who spray painted her cheating husband's Range Rover? What happened to the Tigers' offensive productivity? Who will inherit Prince's estate? Eva Mendes was secretly pregnant and already gave birth! Did Gigi Hadid wear anything under that dress? Those killer tornadoes in Oklahoma. It looks like several days of rain....

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Good corporate citizens? That's debatable...

Of coursre it's debatable! It's an opinion.

For the record, I do not advocate corporate welfare. Please note: Mike Ilitch has never held elective office. If one is opposed to a certain government expenditure, the logical target of the opposition is the spender, i.e. government. I have never said questioning corporate welfare was an act of hatred. But a quick scan of Ilitch-themed threads does reveal a large amount of vitriol and yes, hatred, for the Ilitches. I mean "stabbed my baby to death and then laughed" level of hatred.

[GPCharles]

Ilitch Charities, Inc. - "provide support to children and family programs in the areas of health, recreation and education."

Per the 2014 Form 990, the entity had YE net assets of $5,558,549 and made grants of $1,189,424.

[Enduro]

But a quick scan of Ilitch-themed threads does reveal a large amount of vitriol and yes, hatred, for the Ilitches. I mean "stabbed my baby to death and then laughed" level of hatred.

I agree but I think a lot of that hate is in direct contrast to the blind devotion for him that the media and the average metro Detroiter seems to have for him. It's kind of like there's a small minority of people in this town that have the sunglasses from They Live and we can't believe no one else can see him for what he is. Sure it is all perfectly legal but it is very unsavory and he deserves bad PR for it.

Sure, he isn't the one ultimately deciding to hand out our money but he is actively seeking it, he does actively lobby politicians, he does comically over promise on his Utopia District's mission and he has done a lot, I'm sure unintentionally, to sabotage downtown's development by squatting on a huge swath of property. I'd love to see a single journalist in town [[save Lessenberry who goes largely ignored) dare even bring the question up. Comerica Park had promises of year round restaurants and shops. Ford Field still has all this unused office space for rent. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for District Detroit's Jazz club to materialize.

My intention for this post was to question his qualifications to curate several brand new ventures simultaneously based on his previous record beyond Little Caesars proper. I think it's a fair question given the scale of the project and the impact it will have on the city with or without public money.