Ilitch's Biggest Flops?

[Enduro]

There's been so much angry chatter about Ilitch's LCD roof and dopey arena name that I feel one of my biggest and more relevant concerns has been lost in the shuffle - the family's lack of success beyond LC's and spending like drunken sailors on free agents. The fact they are going to have a whole neighborhood to brand when they've had so many flops concerns me quite a bit. Here's some of the ones at the top of my mind, please add to the list [[include nasty building deals, neglecting historic structures, etc too!).

Johnny Rockets spot - one of the best location in the city, rent-free, and they can't seem to even stumble into a winner. This is the worst crime of all in context of the question. If they can't make THIS work what makes them think they can handle multiple prime locations?

American Pizza Cafe - perhaps it was before it's time [[in the midwest) but still a flop

Second City - I actually took classes here and the staff and cast was wonderful but the rumor I heard is that this was just a vanity purchase and when the "franchise" license was up for renewal they just let it go. Now there is the often empty City Theater.

Comerica Park - Liquid fireworks?! In a cold midwest city?! The carousel and Ferris Wheel are silly but I can live with them... if the Ferris Wheel riders could actually SEE the game from the top. Knocking down buildings to improve the view of the city. Parking on Woodward? The stadium should butt up to the street, the placement of the parking lot is stupid. The scoreboard was misplaced. Left field walls were too far, players complained and they brought them in, putting the flagpole out of play - eliminating one of the only nods to historic Tiger stadium. If you think the CoPa is a nice modern stadium you need to see a game in another park. Also - worst concessions ever.

Tigers ownership up until 2006 - Dreadful. Even threw Alan Trammel under the bus to manage a shit team. Poor relations with many 1984 players, including Sparky. At least he knew enough to re-hire Ernie Harwell.

The handling of Tiger Stadium - no matter what fate you wanted for the stadium you must agree this was handled poorly [[at best). Sure, the city owned the property but Mike did not help at all.

Motor City Casino [[Marian) - Isn't that a temporary casino location? Weird. Pretty sure the famous Soup Kitchen and less famous but very cool Sardine Bar were a couple of the Detroit staples sacrificed for a move that never came. Also - the signage is tacky as hell.

What else do you have, Detroit Yes?

[1953]

I made this little gem last year...

[dtowncitylover]

I made this little gem last year...

What are the buildings in the picture? I know the top left is Madison-Lennox. I can't remember the names of the others.

[Zads07]

I made this little gem last year...

Top left: Madison-Lenox, controversial and ILLEGAL demolition [[research it)
Top right: Adams Theatre, preserved the facade, but a consolation for an historic building
Middle left: Detroit YMCA demolished for Comerica Park [[footprint)
Middle Right: Detroit YWCA, demolished for Comerica Park [[footprint)
Bottom Left: Park Avenue Hotel, imploded for a loading/dock ramp for trucks at the new arena
Bottom Right: Hotel Wolverine, demolished for surface parking and for a better view of Comerica Park from Woodward Ave.

Also this: http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...pany-buildings

Let us not forget he owns the following buildings mentioned in this photo that are vacant: United Artists Theatre, Detroit Life, Loyal Order of the Moose, Blenheim Building and the giant swaths of gravel parking lots in Foxtown that apparently will become part of the District Detroit. Forgive me if I'm skeptical of that actually happening.

The construction of CoPa also forced the move of the Elwood and Gem Theatre, no thanks to Ilitch and were preserved, thanks to Chuck Forbes. I had heard he also wanted to demolish what is now Cheli's Chili Bar for a 'decorative sidewalk' but a judge ruled that Wayne County cannot take it via eminent domain.

[p69rrh51]

Speaking of the United Artists Building.

[p69rrh51]

Their "stewardship" of Masonic Temple was not that spectacular either.

[Wesley Mouch]

Their "stewardship" of Masonic Temple was not that spectacular either.

Depends on your point of view. If they had not stepped up to the plate [[so to speak), the Masonic might not have made it through. Those were rough times.

[emu steve]

Depends on your point of view. If they had not stepped up to the plate [[so to speak), the Masonic might not have made it through. Those were rough times.

Wasn't it going to be a tax sale?

[GPCharles]

Little Caesar's Pizza Station -free-standing, fast food pizza locations. Complete bust.

[Enduro]

Little Caesar's Pizza Station -free-standing, fast food pizza locations. Complete bust.

Hmm. Can you elaborate? I have a stand alone LC with drive thru by me in Oak Park. The deep dish is actually decent and I'll admit I grab one fairly often. Was this a smaller version? Like a Photomat or something?

[jackie5275]

Was this a smaller version? Like a Photomat or something?

No, they were more like a fast food restaurant where you could get pizza, salad, subs, etc and actually sit down to eat it on site.

[Enduro]

No, they were more like a fast food restaurant where you could get pizza, salad, subs, etc and actually sit down to eat it on site.

Ah yes, we had one at Warren and Fielding [[Everygreen) that lasted quite a while. We'd go there on break at Kroger. They also served beer [[to an underage but convincing me) - in wax paper cups. Yum!

[jackie5275]

Hot & Ready Pizza itself. While a really bad $5.00 pizza may be good if you're feeding kids at a birthday party, as an adult, it's not. It's a massive amount of dough, a dab of sauce, & pre-measured cheese & pepperoni that don't reach anywhere near to the crust. Round or square, little variety. I remember as a kid you could get a made to order pizza there that was actually good. From a business stand point, I guess it's been successful [[probably from parties wanting to feed a bunch of people cheap food). But from an actual pizza place stand point, this is the worst.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Count me in among the fans of the Ilitches. Like all big companies, LC has had its ups and downs, but they're a solid, profitable company, with lots of area employees and thousands of mostly first-time small business owners as franchisees. And flop ideas? Remember the Edsel? The McDLT? New Coke? Businesses try new things. Some work, some don't.

On the sports front, the Ilitches have mostly been willing to pony up the money to field good teams [[obviously 1995-2005 was an austerity period for the Tigers). Doesn't always pan out, but that's true of all sports teams. Say what you want about Comerica Park, it is a better [[if less nostalgic) place to watch a ballgame than Tiger Stadium, and it is integrated into downtown. Same will be true of the LC Arena.

As for property, yes he owns a lot of things that have yet to be restored or land yet to be developed. But a lot is now or about to be starting soon. For the first time in his decades downtown, market conditions are starting to warrant doing the work.

Olympia is far from perfect. But they are good corporate citizens. And they have done more for the city than anyone on this website. And they accept the hate and scorn with a smile.

[erikd]

Count me in among the fans of the Ilitches. Like all big companies, LC has had its ups and downs, but they're a solid, profitable company, with lots of area employees and thousands of mostly first-time small business owners as franchisees. And flop ideas? Remember the Edsel? The McDLT? New Coke? Businesses try new things. Some work, some don't.

On the sports front, the Ilitches have mostly been willing to pony up the money to field good teams [[obviously 1995-2005 was an austerity period for the Tigers). Doesn't always pan out, but that's true of all sports teams. Say what you want about Comerica Park, it is a better [[if less nostalgic) place to watch a ballgame than Tiger Stadium, and it is integrated into downtown. Same will be true of the LC Arena.

As for property, yes he owns a lot of things that have yet to be restored or land yet to be developed. But a lot is now or about to be starting soon. For the first time in his decades downtown, market conditions are starting to warrant doing the work.

Olympia is far from perfect. But they are good corporate citizens. And they have done more for the city than anyone on this website. And they accept the hate and scorn with a smile.

Good corporate citizens? That's debatable...

As for doing more than anyone else on this website, no one else on this website has been handed hundreds of millions of dollars in taxpayer handouts either. There are a number of people on this site who have renovated Detroit properties and started businesses in the city without multi-million dollar cash handouts from the taxpayers.

I do agree with you that they accept the hate and scorn from us with a smile, as they cash a quarter-billion dollar welfare check from us. If I conned the government into giving me a quarter-billion dollars, I'd smile too.

Never mind that, though. Just keep on thinking that handing out hundreds of millions of our tax dollars to a billionaire, with no strings attached, is clearly the best use of our scarce public funding, and label any citizen who dares to question the financial reality of the arrangement a "hater."

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Good corporate citizens? That's debatable...

Of coursre it's debatable! It's an opinion.

For the record, I do not advocate corporate welfare. Please note: Mike Ilitch has never held elective office. If one is opposed to a certain government expenditure, the logical target of the opposition is the spender, i.e. government. I have never said questioning corporate welfare was an act of hatred. But a quick scan of Ilitch-themed threads does reveal a large amount of vitriol and yes, hatred, for the Ilitches. I mean "stabbed my baby to death and then laughed" level of hatred.

[Enduro]

But a quick scan of Ilitch-themed threads does reveal a large amount of vitriol and yes, hatred, for the Ilitches. I mean "stabbed my baby to death and then laughed" level of hatred.

I agree but I think a lot of that hate is in direct contrast to the blind devotion for him that the media and the average metro Detroiter seems to have for him. It's kind of like there's a small minority of people in this town that have the sunglasses from They Live and we can't believe no one else can see him for what he is. Sure it is all perfectly legal but it is very unsavory and he deserves bad PR for it.

Sure, he isn't the one ultimately deciding to hand out our money but he is actively seeking it, he does actively lobby politicians, he does comically over promise on his Utopia District's mission and he has done a lot, I'm sure unintentionally, to sabotage downtown's development by squatting on a huge swath of property. I'd love to see a single journalist in town [[save Lessenberry who goes largely ignored) dare even bring the question up. Comerica Park had promises of year round restaurants and shops. Ford Field still has all this unused office space for rent. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for District Detroit's Jazz club to materialize.

My intention for this post was to question his qualifications to curate several brand new ventures simultaneously based on his previous record beyond Little Caesars proper. I think it's a fair question given the scale of the project and the impact it will have on the city with or without public money.

[Detroitnerd]

Seems like times are changing a bit. Used to be that if you brought up inconvenient facts about Mike Ilitch and his business dealings, there'd be more posters shouting you down. Nice to see a discussion of the city's No. 1 welfare addict and how it breeds poor business acumen.

If I remember correctly, the reason Second City shut down was because Olympia wasn't paying the licensing fees. Silly Chicagoans! Don't they understand that Mikey doesn't have to pay stuff like licensing fees. Not when you have as much power as he's used to.

Or, as old Vanderbilt once said: "The law? What do I care about the law? Ain't I got the power?"

[dguy4evr]

Count me in among the fans of the Ilitches. Like all big companies, LC has had its ups and downs, but they're a solid, profitable company, with lots of area employees and thousands of mostly first-time small business owners as franchisees. And flop ideas? Remember the Edsel? The McDLT? New Coke? Businesses try new things. Some work, some don't.

On the sports front, the Ilitches have mostly been willing to pony up the money to field good teams [[obviously 1995-2005 was an austerity period for the Tigers). Doesn't always pan out, but that's true of all sports teams. Say what you want about Comerica Park, it is a better [[if less nostalgic) place to watch a ballgame than Tiger Stadium, and it is integrated into downtown. Same will be true of the LC Arena.

As for property, yes he owns a lot of things that have yet to be restored or land yet to be developed. But a lot is now or about to be starting soon. For the first time in his decades downtown, market conditions are starting to warrant doing the work.

Olympia is far from perfect. But they are good corporate citizens. And they have done more for the city than anyone on this website. And they accept the hate and scorn with a smile.

What I don't understand is the constant complaining about the people that are putting real money into this city. People like Gilbert and Rodger Penske. What do you think the city would be like if these investments did not happen?
In a word, "Don't bite the hand that feeds you!"

[Wesley Mouch]

What I don't understand is the constant complaining about the people that are putting real money into this city. People like Gilbert and Rodger Penske. What do you think the city would be like if these investments did not happen?
In a word, "Don't bite the hand that feeds you!"

Neither do I. Many decisions made by Gilbert, Penske, Ilitch, et. al. are not to my liking. But they clearly love Detroit.

Like in politics today, here nobody accepts good enough. Compromise? No way. I want exactly what I want or I'm gonna whine.

Sure, Ilitch blew it with the Madison-Lennox. He is a product of the 50s and 60s. During his formative years the way to deal with cities was thought to be to improve the physical infrastructure. Knock down entire neighborhoods and replace them with new. New will fix the soul. Cabrini Green was no doubt well-intended. Demolition of old crap was the stock progressive policy.

I don't think Mr. I even thought about the M-L. Parking wasn't the goal. It was just an old building. And old was bad. Or so was the progressive mantra before global warming.

[bust]

Neither do I. Many decisions made by Gilbert, Penske, Ilitch, et. al. are not to my liking. But they clearly love Detroit.

I'm sure Ilitch loves Detroit. Who wouldn't after all Detroit's done for him?

But don't lump Gilbert and Penske with Ilitch. They deserve better company. For the results of his speculative "investments" in Detroit -- the vast swaths he has gobbled and left empty for potential arena sites -- he belongs with Moroun, Apostolopoulos, Sachs, et al..

Like in politics today, here nobody accepts good enough. Compromise? No way. I want exactly what I want or I'm gonna whine.

The Ilitch critics are eager for Detroit to improve. Of course there are multiple routes toward that goal. But with decades of his urban interventions to judge him by, we are correct to be skeptical of his. Especially with so many indications the path Ilitch entices us to follow today will lead to a similar place as before. The only unwillingness to compromise I hear is about refusing to be taken for fools again.

His loudest critics complain about the vast tracts of historic, irreplaceable, often beautiful architecture in Detroit Ilitch has demolished or left to rot. They bemoan his destruction of so many smaller blocks with smaller spaces designed to support mixed uses and lively sidewalks where smaller businesses can more easily get their start. And they oppose the single-use superblocks and seas of parking lots he has put in their stead. Those are exactly opposite the dense, diverse, walkable urban fabric so many of his critics support.

Count me among them. We lack the capital to effect an impact even remotely like he can. But our interest is in a healthy city, not in extracting wealth. I daresay we love Detroit more.

Sure, Ilitch blew it with the Madison-Lennox. He is a product of the 50s and 60s. During his formative years the way to deal with cities was thought to be to improve the physical infrastructure. Knock down entire neighborhoods and replace them with new. New will fix the soul. Cabrini Green was no doubt well-intended. Demolition of old crap was the stock progressive policy.

I don't think Mr. I even thought about the M-L. Parking wasn't the goal. It was just an old building. And old was bad. Or so was the progressive mantra before global warming.

Someone who uses a word as a pejorative is unqualified to provide an unbiased definition of a word. That's how you use "progressive". Besides, what's progressive or not is as subjective as what's liberal or conservative, or spicy or bland. It's relative, a matter of opinion, and moreover, a loaded term. It's a distraction.

The facts are the 50's and 60's "slum clearance" "urban renewal" programs that destroyed so much of our urban fabric were the result of federal initiatives whose advocates The National Housing Institute says were "typically downtown businesses, developers, banks, major daily newspapers, big-city mayors and construction unions – what John Mollenkopf would later call the 'growth coalition' and Harvey Molotch would label the 'growth machine.' Most planners and architects at the time joined the urban renewal chorus. It was, after all, their bread and butter."

http://nhi.org/online/issues/146/janejacobslegacy.html

Jane Jacobs published "The Death and Life of Great American Cities" in 1961. It was a visionary critique of the top-down "slum clearance" programs and eloquently presented rehabilitation as a far superior approach. It became required reading in planning and urban studies programs. It has been profoundly influential since.

Whatever your definition of "progressive" it's no fit for Ilitch's version of urban development. The negative consequences of the demolition approach have been discussed for more than half a century. Surely he's aware of them. Do you really think he's looking out for Detroit in the first place? A misguided altruist? Come on.

If the area around the arena becomes anything resembling what he entices us to expect in his PR material I'll be happily blown away by surprise. If it comes directly from Olympia's investment even more. But he will still have so many neglected treasures and fallow acres outside the district to address.

Curbed recently published an excellent commemoration celebrating Jane Jacobs:

http://www.curbed.com/2016/5/4/11583...-jacobs-legacy

Included in that is an awesome one-page illustrated guide to her philosophy, by James Gulliver Hancock. It's fun to read, in clear terms:

http://www.curbed.com/2016/5/4/11582...lliver-hancock

Here is the National Housing Institute's great summary of her legacy, again:

http://nhi.org/online/issues/146/janejacobslegacy.html

[Wesley Mouch]

National Housing Institute[/URL] says were "typically downtown businesses, developers, banks, major daily newspapers, big-city mayors and construction unions – what John Mollenkopf would later call the 'growth coalition' and Harvey Molotch would label the 'growth machine.' Most planners and architects at the time joined the urban renewal chorus. It was, after all, their bread and butter."...snip sorry jane...

You are right to call me out on pejoratives, but wrong about the roots of urban renewal. It was a coalition, to be sure. But it had moral underpinnings from the left. Businessmen were not in the business of creating Model Cities. They just wanted old gone. I don't think most developers thought Cabrini Green or Brewster Projects were a good ideas.

[EastsideAl]

The idiotic destruction of the Adams Theater. And all of the other the Ilitch-destroyed buildings replaced by empty space. As well as the Ilitch's management and maintenance of most of the buildings they own other than their marquee properties.

[Gistok]

Emu_steve.... Ilitch paid the DTE bill. Otherwise the place would have gone dark, and the remaining Masonic lodges would have left for the burbs.

Zads07... Cheli's Chili is the Women's Exchange Building... where Edsel Ford first met Eleanor Clay... and later begat the Fords of today. The Ilitch's were mad that they didn't get their decorative sidewalk, and showed their vindictiveness by not allowing any parking space arrangements with any prospective purchasers/leaseholders of the building. No parking spaces no businesses... until Chris Chelios came along [[still a Red Wing) and was able to deal with the Ilitch's.

p69rrh51.... the SW side of the United Artists Theatre had the facade come crumbling down back in the 1980s [[before Ilitch ownership)... and that stretch of Clifford was closed for at least a year. The Ilitch's biggest crime in that building was not to secure it from scavengers... and all but 1 of the Indian maiden busts lining the theatre lobby and auditorium were ripped out under the Ilitch stewardship by scavengers.... as well as the extensive sidewall plaster damage due to not fixing a leaking roof. Now the roof is fixed... but possibly too late.

EastsideAl... yup... when the Ilitch's bought the Fine Arts Building and Adams auditorium, it was still a working theatre. But by not repairing or doing anything to the roof, there was 2 inches of mold on all the auditorium seats, and the roof leaked water to ruin most of the surviving plaster. The Fine Arts Building [[the lobby part of the Adams) was wood framed, and eventually had structural collapse, which required demolition [[but the Detroit Historic Commission demanded the facade be saved... for 6 years now with nothing planned).

Also to add to the list... lets not forget the Vermont Hotel [[razed), Chin Tiki [[razed) and a nicely restored 3 story building along Grand River Ave. [[razed)... all for expanding the sea of parking.

[Scottathew]

On the bright side Little Caesars headquarters is still... a surface parking lot...